Gothamite Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Man U hasn't exactly been hurt in the long term, have they? The Green Bay Packers Uniform Database! Now in a handy blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattwswfc Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 This isn't going to happen. Ever. The culture of soccer in England won't allow it. First off clubs the size of Wigan, Bolton, Wolves will be playing to half empty stadia for half the season. Big clubs don't need the protection, small clubs need the competition of relegation. Secondly the way this came out was precisely so any idea of it could be shot down by fans, players, management, as has happened. It was a warning shot to any owners even thinking like this.I agree that there would be a massive backlash. I mean just look at the rows that occurred when the Glazers bought Man U or even worse when Wimbledon FC tried to move 35 miles in a "franchise" like move. They were disowned by virtually every fan the team had, banished from all fan related groups (which are big over there), and forced to rename themselves and eventually to retroactively renounce all ties to their former history and give it back to the council in Wimbledon (an English twist on the Cleveland model). And that was over a move most in the US would consider relatively insignificant. They try to do this locked premiership and the only thing it will result in is the eventual death of the premiership as the fans and money would go right back to the FA. Some teams would break away and relegate themselves in protest to the Championship and the ones that didn't would quickly find their former fans forming FC United of Manchester and AFC Wimbledon type breakaway teams to take their place.That's the one thing I've always respected about their sports model, yes the leagues are far less stable which can be very bad for the individual fan and for the teams that get relegated. But at the same time it gives the fans a level of power if their teams start being run poorly or contrary to what they'd like that we just don't have over here (AFC Wimbledon being the best model I can think of off hand. I mean heck they're only one level below the remnants of their old team at this point).Yes you make a good point, AFC Wimbledon is a perfect example of this and should be used as an argument for this not to go ahead. It shows that a team created from nothing has managed to get into the Football League.It was the same for teams such as Swansea, Wigan and Fulham, who have built their teams up and achieved their dream, playing Premier League football. Why should foreign owners have the right to deprive the smaller teams a chance just like the 3 I mentioned. Also as I have said before their are many teams outside the Premier League, that should be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bosrs1 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Man U hasn't exactly been hurt in the long term, have they?No, but it was also a small thing that pissed that particular group of fans off (a simple ownership transfer). And yet they still were angry enough to form a breakaway squad (albiet a small one). If something small like that can engender that fairly extreme response, imagine the fallout from a massively unpopular move like closing the top level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gothamite Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Yes, but it was an extreme response from a very small and replaceable group of supporters. I wouldn't take that as a sign of anything.But you're right - the UK would freak out. The Green Bay Packers Uniform Database! Now in a handy blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattwswfc Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Yes, but it was an extreme response from a very small and replaceable group of supporters. I wouldn't take that as a sign of anything.But you're right - the UK England would freak out.That 'small group' of loyal supporters boycotted the club they love just because of ownership, now if they reverted to a silly american-based franchise style then that small group would become a very big one, and maybe it won't affect Man Utd, but a club with a limited fan base like say Wigan, it would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gothamite Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Hey, Wales is represented in the Football League (even currently in the Prem). I said UK, I meant UK. The Green Bay Packers Uniform Database! Now in a handy blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSox44 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 You know, if they do go with the American style system here, it would kill off a huge part of the enjoyment for many people, and that is the race to see who can avoid getting relegated to the next league down.The lower leagues suffer because their best teams cannot move up to the Premier League and get a piece of that massive monitary gravy train it has.To me, it would make the EPL boring... It's more fun when you know that new teams are in it every year.My thoughts exactly. A lot of the entertainment comes from watching clubs fight to stay in the Premier League. This would take a lot of fun out of it for an almost enirely self serving measure.Yes, but it was an extreme response from a very small and replaceable group of supporters. I wouldn't take that as a sign of anything.But you're right - the UK England would freak out.That 'small group' of loyal supporters boycotted the club they love just because of ownership, now if they reverted to a silly american-based franchise style then that small group would become a very big one, and maybe it won't affect Man Utd, but a club with a limited fan base like say Wigan, it would.A good portion of Man Utd supporters are already pissed at the Glazers, and this would only make that number grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattwswfc Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I don't think it is as big an issue as everyone makes out. If Man Utd's core fan base were to boycott them over their ownership, they still will be able to get 75,000 every week. They are the most famous and powerful sports team in the world, and the demand for their tickets is high, so my point is it wouldn't affect them as great as if a smaller club's fans were to boycott, that's all I'm saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Pondering this a little more, I wonder if the closed-shop supporting owners aren't also floating a trial balloon toward other elite club owners across Europe. If only a handful of EPL clubs turn out to be serious about going closed-shop, that's obviously not enough to keep the EPL viable as an independent league. But I could see them reaching out to the likes of Real Madrid and Barcelona in Spain, Juventus and the two Milan clubs in Serie A, Bayern Munich in Germany, PSG in France, and other marquee and wealthy clubs across the continent to form a closed pan-European super-league, one whose clubs trade on global brand-name recognition as much as lucre.That may actually be a halfway decent compromise outcome here. Europe's mega-clubs would get what they want (an indie super-league, the SEC of Europe if you will) while the rest could carry on with the domestic P/R model, perhaps with diminished talent but at least they'd no longer have to drive themselves to the brink of financial ruin to stay competitive, with the mega-clubs out of the picture. (In other words, the Premier League could still exist, complete with P/R with the Championship as it does now; it just would no longer have the likes of ManU, Man City, Liverpool, etc. in it, and maybe the title race will become competitive for a change. And La Liga would no longer be the two-horse race it is now.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gothamite Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The Superleague has been speculated about for decades, but has never come to anything. I think the increased global importance of the Champions League has made it largely moot; teams can have their domestic cake and eat it too. The Green Bay Packers Uniform Database! Now in a handy blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattwswfc Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Pondering this a little more, I wonder if the closed-shop supporting owners aren't also floating a trial balloon toward other elite club owners across Europe. If only a handful of EPL clubs turn out to be serious about going closed-shop, that's obviously not enough to keep the EPL viable as an independent league. But I could see them reaching out to the likes of Real Madrid and Barcelona in Spain, Juventus and the two Milan clubs in Serie A, Bayern Munich in Germany, PSG in France, and other marquee and wealthy clubs across the continent to form a closed pan-European super-league, one whose clubs trade on global brand-name recognition as much as lucre.That may actually be a halfway decent compromise outcome here. Europe's mega-clubs would get what they want (an indie super-league, the SEC of Europe if you will) while the rest could carry on with the domestic P/R model, perhaps with diminished talent but at least they'd no longer have to drive themselves to the brink of financial ruin to stay competitive, with the mega-clubs out of the picture. (In other words, the Premier League could still exist, complete with P/R with the Championship as it does now; it just would no longer have the likes of ManU, Man City, Liverpool, etc. in it, and maybe the title race will become competitive for a change. And La Liga would no longer be the two-horse race it is now.)PSG are not the most elite club in France, the only reason they are popular is because they are the only club in Paris. Lyon, Marseille or Lille would be considered more 'elite'.The funny thing is Paris is about the same size as London, yet only has one football team. London has 5 top flight teams, and another 9 in the rest of the Football League.French football is nowhere as 'elite' as the Premier League, German Bundeliga is dismal, Italian football is maybe closer and Spanish La Liga is probably the closest league to the Premier League, but still a country mile off.The Premier League is the best football league in the world, end of!We all know that if Real and Barca move from La Liga, it would lose it's credabilty, German football still needs a long way to go, Serie A is a corrupt league run by the Mafia, and is involved in match fixing far too often to be considered 'elite', and French Ligue 1 is about as 'elite' as npower League 1!!We would just be in the same boat with this new Europe wide league, with either Real Madrid, Barcalona or any of the English elite clubs winning it, and the others (German, French, Itlian etc.) falling away by the end when they have no chance of winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnclearInitial Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Pondering this a little more, I wonder if the closed-shop supporting owners aren't also floating a trial balloon toward other elite club owners across Europe. If only a handful of EPL clubs turn out to be serious about going closed-shop, that's obviously not enough to keep the EPL viable as an independent league. But I could see them reaching out to the likes of Real Madrid and Barcelona in Spain, Juventus and the two Milan clubs in Serie A, Bayern Munich in Germany, PSG in France, and other marquee and wealthy clubs across the continent to form a closed pan-European super-league, one whose clubs trade on global brand-name recognition as much as lucre.That may actually be a halfway decent compromise outcome here. Europe's mega-clubs would get what they want (an indie super-league, the SEC of Europe if you will) while the rest could carry on with the domestic P/R model, perhaps with diminished talent but at least they'd no longer have to drive themselves to the brink of financial ruin to stay competitive, with the mega-clubs out of the picture. (In other words, the Premier League could still exist, complete with P/R with the Championship as it does now; it just would no longer have the likes of ManU, Man City, Liverpool, etc. in it, and maybe the title race will become competitive for a change. And La Liga would no longer be the two-horse race it is now.)PSG are not the most elite club in France, the only reason they are popular is because they are the only club in Paris. Lyon, Marseille or Lille would be considered more 'elite'.The funny thing is Paris is about the same size as London, yet only has one football team. London has 5 top flight teams, and another 9 in the rest of the Football League.French football is nowhere as 'elite' as the Premier League, German Bundeliga is dismal, Italian football is maybe closer and Spanish La Liga is probably the closest league to the Premier League, but still a country mile off.The Premier League is the best football league in the world, end of!We all know that if Real and Barca move from La Liga, it would lose it's credabilty, German football still needs a long way to go, Serie A is a corrupt league run by the Mafia, and is involved in match fixing far too often to be considered 'elite', and French Ligue 1 is about as 'elite' as npower League 1!!We would just be in the same boat with this new Europe wide league, with either Real Madrid, Barcalona or any of the English elite clubs winning it, and the others (German, French, Itlian etc.) falling away by the end when they have no chance of winning.You do realize that the past 3 Champions leagues have been won by non-Premier League teams? That the Serie A was the best league from around 1982 to 2003? That La Liga was the best from 1950 to 1970? Being the best league is cyclical. Once rich foreign wannabe owners realize that there are too many rich owners in the Premier League, they'll start buying teams in other leagues. Some of this is already happening (Deportivo la Coruna, AsRoma).To the bolded statement, La Liga would still have Valencia, Villareal, Siviglia and Atletico Madrid. Who would the premier league have if the top 5 left? Bundesliga has Bayern Munich, which is a threat to win the CL every year. Serie A is definitely not run by the Mafia (At least much less than a certain London team with a Russian owner), and Bundesliga has a much worse match fixing scandal than Serie A ( A scandal that is 5 years old, by the way). French football is a hell of a lot better than the npower League 1.On your last paragraph, no Italian or German team would be able to win it? The 2010 final was played by an Italian and a German team. No premier league team in sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattwswfc Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Right let me throw a few statistics in for you since 2004 the appearance by a team representing each country is as follows: Spain 3 times, Italy 3 times, Germany once (yes that is once, even though Bayern Munich are a 'threat' every year) and England 7 times.The scandal in the Serie A is much more current than you think, just a couple of months ago a game between 2 Italian teams was match fixed. And Ok granted the French league is on par with the Championship then.If the Premier League lost it's top 5 clubs, lets say Man Utd, Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea, you would still be left with the likes of Tottenham, Newcastle Utd, Everton, Aston Villa, Sunderland, also if they absorbed some other teams i.e. Leeds Utd, Leicester, Birmingham, West Ham, Sheffield Wednesday, Southampton, Nottingham Forest and Derby. Then that's a good amount of big clubs still in England. Just to make a point who really would La Liga have it they lost their top 5 clubs, same with Serie A or Bundesliga?Fair enough between the years of 1985 and 1999 no English club won the CL, but since 2004 English clubs have dominated the CL (except the blip in 2009-10 where they were outmatched by the football genius of Jose Mourinho) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintsfan Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I'm not sure you can really say England have 'dominated' the Champions League recently. Sure they have done ok, but they have won it three times in 12 years. Hardly dominance. Incidentally a breakaway European League won't happen. For a start clubs would have a drastically curtailed fixture list. You might get a champions league type competition becoming a closed shop, run on a franchise system, but clubs would likely still compete in domestic competitions. 2011/12 WFL Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattwswfc Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I'm not sure you can really say England have 'dominated' the Champions League recently. Sure they have done ok, but they have won it three times in 12 years. Hardly dominance. Incidentally a breakaway European League won't happen. For a start clubs would have a drastically curtailed fixture list. You might get a champions league type competition becoming a closed shop, run on a franchise system, but clubs would likely still compete in domestic competitions.Like I said you have to look deeper, like the amount of teams that actually qualified for the CL Finals, and how far the English team's got. Between 2004 and 2008 an English team never failed to reach the Final, and in 2008 it was contested by Man Utd and Chelsea (2 English teams)! And FYI the Quarter finals of that year included 4 English teams, the Semi finals 3 (out of 4 remember)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnclearInitial Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I'm not sure you can really say England have 'dominated' the Champions League recently. Sure they have done ok, but they have won it three times in 12 years. Hardly dominance. Incidentally a breakaway European League won't happen. For a start clubs would have a drastically curtailed fixture list. You might get a champions league type competition becoming a closed shop, run on a franchise system, but clubs would likely still compete in domestic competitions.Like I said you have to look deeper, like the amount of teams that actually qualified for the CL Finals, and how far the English team's got. Between 2004 and 2008 an English team never failed to reach the Final, and in 2008 it was contested by Man Utd and Chelsea (2 English teams)! And FYI the Quarter finals of that year included 4 English teams, the Semi finals 3 (out of 4 remember)!Spain has won a Champions league 7 out of the past 21 years, appearing 13 times, includin an all Liga final in 1999-2000. Italy won 5 times between 1985 and 1996, and from 1983 to 1998 appeared in the final 12 times, and had 3 teams in the semis and 2 in the final in 2003, and from 1992 to 1998 appeared 7 consecutive times in a final. They also appeared 11 times in the UEFA cup final from 1989 to 1995. I'm not saying that the Premier League isn't the best now, but in 5 years this could quickly change. Do you really think foreign owners will keep buying teams in the Premier League to fight not to get relegated? Or will they buy teams from other countries, where they know that they might have a shot at qualifying for the Champions League? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintsfan Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I'm not sure you can really say England have 'dominated' the Champions League recently. Sure they have done ok, but they have won it three times in 12 years. Hardly dominance. Incidentally a breakaway European League won't happen. For a start clubs would have a drastically curtailed fixture list. You might get a champions league type competition becoming a closed shop, run on a franchise system, but clubs would likely still compete in domestic competitions.Like I said you have to look deeper, like the amount of teams that actually qualified for the CL Finals, and how far the English team's got. Between 2004 and 2008 an English team never failed to reach the Final, and in 2008 it was contested by Man Utd and Chelsea (2 English teams)! And FYI the Quarter finals of that year included 4 English teams, the Semi finals 3 (out of 4 remember)!2008 is 4 seasons ago, hardly current data. I really wouldn't put any English club near Barca and Real Madrid right now, in the Champions League at least, as Man City need more experience at that level. I don't see any other English club winning the CL for at least a couple of seasons. 2011/12 WFL Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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