Las Vegas NHL Expansion

[The_Admiral]

1 hour ago, CityOfWalrus said:

Vegas and Quebec City only bid but Quebec City will not get an expansion team due to the league being unbalanced.

Bulllllllshiiiiiiit, and here's why.

 

"Hi! I'm Coke Homedepotman, a local billionaire. I love hockey and would love to be in the NHL. In fact, I love it so much that I'm willing to build a 17,000-seat arena in the heart of our whitest suburbs and pay you $500 million for the 32nd expansion team. I hope you're as interested as I am and look forward as I do to NHL hockey in Atlanta."

 

Does the league turn me away because Detroit is in the Eastern Conference?

 

[IceCap]

15 minutes ago, daniel75 said:

No doubt the Panthers, Hurricanes, Coyotes are failures, but to be fair the Devils, Isles, Jackets, Avalanche are all northern cities that have poor attendance. Even Ottawa (this season) are averaging only 15,168. As a hockey fan i would like to see all markets prosper, rooting for either northern or southern teams to do poorly is wrong.

The difference is that the Devils, Isles, Avs, and Sens have proven they can be profitable. Business downturns do not equate to a business failure.

The Hurricanes, Panthers, and Coyotes are financial black holes. 

 

As for rooting for or against certain markets? I don't think you can say I'm rooting against "southern" markets when I call out Arizona, Carolina, and Florida for the failures they are when I also praise Tampa, Dallas, and Nashville. 

 

I would like all markets to succeede of course. I would also like to see the league stop treating its most loyal fanbases like an inconvenience in favour of fanbases that don't even fully exist, and may not even manifest.

[The_Admiral]

It's funny how the southern fans were like "don't worry, Quebec, I hope you get a team...in expansion, so everyone's happy!" and then turned around like "you can't have an expansion team, you'll destroy our precious alignment, it'll never work." What are they supposed to do, start another WHA and merge their way back in?

 

Oh, and whatever the Devils' and Isles' attendance failures are, they pull down pretty high ratings. Once you adjust for the sheer number of households in the #1 market, they still get more eyeballs than a lot of teams. The Hurricanes and Predators don't report their ratings, probably because they have something to hide, and the Panthers, well, their telecasts once lost to I Can't Believe They Invented It.

[BeerGuyJordan]

1 hour ago, the admiral said:

Bulllllllshiiiiiiit, and here's why.

 

"Hi! I'm Coke Homedepotman, a local billionaire. I love hockey and would love to be in the NHL. In fact, I love it so much that I'm willing to build a 17,000-seat arena in the heart of our whitest suburbs and pay you $500 million for the 32nd expansion team. I hope you're as interested as I am and look forward as I do to NHL hockey in Atlanta."

 

Does the league turn me away because Detroit is in the Eastern Conference?

 

In Atlanta? Yes, but only because the league needs a bit more time to firget the embarrassing second failed ATL franchise. In ten to fifteen years, they'd jump at the opportunity for a trifecta.

 

1 hour ago, the admiral said:

Oh, and whatever the Devils' and Isles' attendance failures are, they pull down pretty high ratings. Once you adjust for the sheer number of households in the #1 market, they still get more eyeballs than a lot of teams. The Hurricanes and Predators don't report their ratings, probably because they have something to hide, and the Panthers, well, their telecasts once lost to I Can't Believe They Invented It.

 

I'm one of the people arguing moving one of the non-Rangers NYC area teams. Their viewership is there, but this is a much more gate driven league than the other three major sports.

 

My main point is that I think it would make sense to move that team to the Toronto/Hamilton area, the viewership might see a small bump, but there's no real risk of it going down. Plus, you're almost garuanteed to sell out most games. Have you seen the waiting list for Leafs season tix? Three teams in NYC and one (and-a-half, if you count thise who cross the border to go to Sabres games) team in Toronto doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

It's not like most of your hockey fans of the team that moves will stop watching hockey. There are two other NYC teams there, plus the Flyers, for the Devils crowd.

 

I would only be in favor of moving the third NYC team to Toronto or another market that is "traditional" (Hamilton, Quebec, maybe Hartford, depending on the plan). If you're looking to move them to a high-risk market, I vote hell no.

 

And before someone brings it up, I don't care how many championships a team has won. This league is one part love-affair (something the league usually forgets), but also one part business (which the fans sometimes forget). You don't get to rest on your laurels, if it's getting in the way of business.

 

Still, there are bigger fish to fry. There are currently two markets in need of fixing. Arizona bought themselves some time, if the Tempe move happens and they can get out of the basement, but I worry their move is a when, not an if. Carolina looks more and more like relocation is going to happen. If it does, here's hoping the League gets out of their own way and allows a return to Quebec. Then put team 32 in Seattle. If that doesn't pan out, go for Portland, Houston or Milwaukee.

[The_Admiral]

Well, I think you're wrong on both counts.

[BeerGuyJordan]

3 hours ago, the admiral said:

Bulllllllshiiiiiiit, and here's why.

 

"Hi! I'm Coke Homedepotman, a local billionaire. I love hockey and would love to be in the NHL. In fact, I love it so much that I'm willing to build a 17,000-seat arena in the heart of our whitest suburbs and pay you $500 million for the 32nd expansion team. I hope you're as interested as I am and look forward as I do to NHL hockey in Atlanta."

 

Does the league turn me away because Detroit is in the Eastern Conference?

 

On a lighter note, shouldn't we be urging the league to try Atlanta, again? Expansion to ATL is, after all, the most reliable path to getting new Canadian teams.

[IceCap]

The problem with moving to Toronto/Hamilton is the need to pay off the Maple Leafs. As well the Sabres, potentially. The Leafs alone would probably demand a $1 billion rights fee, as well they should. So anyone buying the Devils/Islanders would have to have pockets deep enough to purchase the team, pay the relocation fee, and then pay off MLSE. And potentially Pegula.

Outside of discussing the viability of three NYC metro area teams? That's just not going to happen.

 

Meanwhile all three NYC area teams have proven they can be viable where they are.

[panthers_2012]

13 minutes ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

On a lighter note, shouldn't we be urging the league to try Atlanta, again? Expansion to ATL is, after all, the most reliable path to getting new Canadian teams.

I don't think the league will risk it this close to the Thrashers departure. Atlanta has already lost two NHL teams(ironically, both to Canada) and each team in ATL struggled with attendance. Just my 2 cents in this conversation. 

[BeerGuyJordan]

13 minutes ago, panthers_2012 said:

I don't think the league will risk it this close to the Thrashers departure. Atlanta has already lost two NHL teams(ironically, both to Canada) and each team in ATL struggled with attendance. Just my 2 cents in this conversation. 

Losing two teams to Canada was the joke. The Jets and Flames have even had a "Thank you, Atlanta" night. 

 

I swear, this thread is lousy for cracking jokes. 

[The_Admiral]

15 minutes ago, panthers_2012 said:

I don't think the league will risk it this close to the Thrashers departure. Atlanta has already lost two NHL teams(ironically, both to Canada) and each team in ATL struggled with attendance. Just my 2 cents in this conversation. 

With the promise of committed ownership and an arena the team can't be evicted from, they'd take Atlanta back in a second if they could, and don't kid yourself. 

[BeerGuyJordan]

32 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

The problem with moving to Toronto/Hamilton is the need to pay off the Maple Leafs. As well the Sabres, potentially. The Leafs alone would probably demand a $1 billion rights fee, as well they should. So anyone buying the Devils/Islanders would have to have pockets deep enough to purchase the team, pay the relocation fee, and then pay off MLSE. And potentially Pegula.

Outside of discussing the viability of three NYC metro area teams? That's just not going to happen.

 

Meanwhile all three NYC area teams have proven they can be viable where they are.

The payoffs to Toronto/Buffalo are, most likely, an insurmountable hurdle. 

 

The long term viability of the Isles, especially of they can't get out if Barclays, is a concern I don't think enough people are taking seriously.

[The_Admiral]

The Tampa Bay Lightning were recently sold as a virtual throw-in for an arena lease and adjacent real estate, and everyone beats off every time the team does anything remotely good-faith. Some guy bought the Islanders for just under half a billion and it's "boy, I just don't know if they're truly committed." 

[AndrewG70]

1 hour ago, panthers_2012 said:

I don't think the league will risk it this close to the Thrashers departure. Atlanta has already lost two NHL teams(ironically, both to Canada) and each team in ATL struggled with attendance. Just my 2 cents in this conversation. 

 

[BeerGuyJordan]

3 hours ago, the admiral said:

The Tampa Bay Lightning were recently sold as a virtual throw-in for an arena lease and adjacent real estate, and everyone beats off every time the team does anything remotely good-faith. Some guy bought the Islanders for just under half a billion and it's "boy, I just don't know if they're truly committed." 

No part of my argument is centered around new Isles ownership. They had abysmal attendance their first year, in Barclays. In a year where they made a second round playoff run. It is safe to assume that they will lose some "shiny and new" Brooklyn fans, and the trip will wear down some of the Long Island faithful. They need to invest in the local fanbase and get butts in seats. Their TV deal buys them some time, but the league is still too gate driven, for revenue, for their numbers to not create problems. That is independent of any underlying fan support issues low attendance is indicative of.

 

I don't hate the Islanders, and I'd rather see them turn it around, but if they don't, it's only a matter of time before Bettman and Co. begin considering using them as an opportunity to capture a new market, at no expense to their current market coverage.

[The_Admiral]

They're trying to get out of Brooklyn and get a purpose-built hockey arena in western Nassau or Queens, and they probably will. If they can't, they'll continue to get $25 million a year to have no one come to their games. The Islanders have survived far worse situations than this. They're a cockroach. They. Are. Fine.

[worcat]

4 hours ago, panthers_2012 said:

I don't think the league will risk it this close to the Thrashers departure. Atlanta has already lost two NHL teams(ironically, both to Canada) and each team in ATL struggled with attendance. Just my 2 cents in this conversation. 

well that joke just went right over your head......

[AnPheitseog]

I'm giving Phoenix some time, and am willing to accept that the only relocation they need is to Tempe, a lot closer to their fanbase. A f not Glendale. 

If that doesn't work, pull the plug. 

Carolina might solve an interesting problem, namely, giving an Eastern city a new team while the canes move west. 

 

Also proper words, shut up Detroit and go back to the west. Though with Vegas, the perfection can never be achieved again. (3 divisions, five teams each)

 

Wouldn't be opposed to what they had planned though. Home/away with all teams, and added divionsal games to make 82. 

[The_Admiral]

I think we'll eventually get to 32 teams, one home and away with each of the other three divisions (48) and four or five within the division. I just don't know when we'll get there as long the only other place that wants a team is Quebec City and the NHL won't take their money (other than the non-refundable application fee for an expansion they knew they wouldn't grant; they'll take that).

[ColeJ]

Are there even such things as "southern fans" that want more southern teams and don't care about more Canadian ones?

I'm in Texas. From Alabama. I cheer for Dallas, but would love to see Quebec, Atlanta, and Houston get teams for various reasons. I also want a second team in the GTA.

 

Expanding, moving Arizona, Carolina, and Florida... Maybe Vegas eventually... I'm fine with those moves to make it happen.

 

My biggest gripe is the merry go round of identity. The Jets are currently in Arizona. The Whalers are in Carolina. Making either the Whalers or Jets become the Nordiques is a headache to me. Especially when the Nordiques are in Denver and the Jets 2.0 are in Winnipeg, via Georgia. Not much we can do to fix all that though, short of a time machine.

[The_Admiral]

11 minutes ago, ColeJ said:

My biggest gripe is the merry go round of identity. The Jets are currently in Arizona. The Whalers are in Carolina. Making either the Whalers or Jets become the Nordiques is a headache to me. Especially when the Nordiques are in Denver and the Jets 2.0 are in Winnipeg, via Georgia. Not much we can do to fix all that though, short of a time machine.

 

Yeah, it's funny how all this works. The NHL never wanted those three teams in the first place, heavily disadvantaged them on the way in, and did nothing to help them on the way out (and facilitated the move out of Winnipeg by revising their ownership rules on the fly). The Avs lucked out thanks to rich owners and the returns on the Lindros trade but the other two have been caught in negative feedback loops from day one. It's no wonder we're talking about one former WHA team assuming the intellectual property of another.