Is there 5th Major League Sports League?

[zubazpirate]

I think Wikipedia gets it right:

 

List of American and Canadian cities by number of major professional sports franchises - Wikipedia

 

You have the traditional "Big Four", and then after that there is an expanded definition of "Big Six" which includes MLS, and in the Canadian context, the CFL. So for the US, MLS is realistically the fifth major league.

 

That's pretty much it for leagues with a legitimate claim to being major league. I agree with the take that has NASCAR and other such events like golf, tennis (even boxing, UFC etc.) categorized separately as tours or what have you. There are other leagues that could one day reach major league status like the WNBA, NLL, etc. but I don't think they could be said to be there yet, and probably won't be anytime soon. I think NCAA is a totally different animal even though by viewership/attendance at its highest levels, you could definitely make an argument that it should be considered a major league.

[VampyrRabbit]

2 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

On MLS:  we've long since passed the point where the top MLS teams are worth more than the bottom NHL teams.  Right now, all but five MLS teams hold that distinction, with the top MLS team being more valuable than half of the NHL's teams.  Despite anyone's fantasies to the contrary, MLS is a major league in the U.S. and Canadian sports landscapes.

The dumpster fire in the desert does skew that somewhat in terms of NHL values vs MLS Values. The Arizona Coyotes, who with a value of 500 million, are worth 150 million less than the 31st most valuable franchise, the Buffalo Sabres, and for whom the Debt/Value is 62%, almost twice as much as the New York Islanders, 2nd in terms of Debt/Value.

In terms of value, there are 21 MLS Franchises that are worth less than the Buffalo Sabres.

[OnWis97]

This is probably not the right board to bring this up on...

 

But sometimes I wonder whether the NHL belongs. We've been talking about the "Big 4" for decades and it's kinda stuck. Meanwhile, soccer has probably surpassed hockey in popularity.* Might we only have a Big 3 and given baseball's dwindling popularity, eventually a Big 2? (The NBA used to ebb and flow depending on what superstars are around but it feels a bit more stable than it has at certain times in the past).

 

I think the case for the NHL in general is that it has a well-established history with O6 teams and teams like the Flyers, Penguins, Kings, etc. engrained in their respective communities. 

 

*I think the case for the NHL over the MLS/soccer is because soccer fandom is very spread out. MLS is not even close to the best league/teams/players in the world and a lot of Americans follow Premier League, etc. In Minnesota, the MLS's United sell well and there is a dedicated base of fans that would be excited about a championship, but that would not compete with the regionwide excitement of a Stanley Cup. I assume this is the case in other markets with both leagues, but Minnesota might not be as good of an example as, say, DC or Miami area.

 

Once you start bringing in golf and motorsports, not to mention Premier League, I wonder whether the NHL is #4, depending on how we're measuring. But this topic (and the "Big #" phrase) is usually about team sports since the PGA doesn't have New York City laundry. And with soccer's attention spread more thinly,  the NHL is the #4 (professional) league. 

[Cujo]

4 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

On MLS:  we've long since passed the point where the top MLS teams are worth more than the bottom NHL teams.  Right now, all but five MLS teams hold that distinction, with the top MLS team being more valuable than half of the NHL's teams. 

 

This is VERY surprising to me. I would love to see this list, if possible.

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

Just now, Cujo said:

4 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

On MLS:  we've long since passed the point where the top MLS teams are worth more than the bottom NHL teams.  Right now, all but five MLS teams hold that distinction, with the top MLS team being more valuable than half of the NHL's teams. 

 

This is VERY surprising to me. I would love to see this list, if possible.

 

Here are the NHL valuations and the MLS valuations from Forbes.

 

[zubazpirate]

36 minutes ago, OnWis97 said:

This is probably not the right board to bring this up on...

 

But sometimes I wonder whether the NHL belongs. We've been talking about the "Big 4" for decades and it's kinda stuck. Meanwhile, soccer has probably surpassed hockey in popularity.* Might we only have a Big 3 and given baseball's dwindling popularity, eventually a Big 2? (The NBA used to ebb and flow depending on what superstars are around but it feels a bit more stable than it has at certain times in the past).

 

I think the case for the NHL in general is that it has a well-established history with O6 teams and teams like the Flyers, Penguins, Kings, etc. engrained in their respective communities. 

 

*I think the case for the NHL over the MLS/soccer is because soccer fandom is very spread out. MLS is not even close to the best league/teams/players in the world and a lot of Americans follow Premier League, etc. In Minnesota, the MLS's United sell well and there is a dedicated base of fans that would be excited about a championship, but that would not compete with the regionwide excitement of a Stanley Cup. I assume this is the case in other markets with both leagues, but Minnesota might not be as good of an example as, say, DC or Miami area.

 

Once you start bringing in golf and motorsports, not to mention Premier League, I wonder whether the NHL is #4, depending on how we're measuring. But this topic (and the "Big #" phrase) is usually about team sports since the PGA doesn't have New York City laundry. And with soccer's attention spread more thinly,  the NHL is the #4 (professional) league. 

 

I think you make a good case for soccer as the fourth (or frankly, higher) ranked US sport. But soccer interest is too fractured to rank MLS as a league over the NHL. So much soccer fandom in North America is directed at the big fish (Premier League, Bundesliga, etc.), the "old country" leagues and international teams that MLS struggles to capture attention on a national level.* Not to say that MLS couldn't get there, it is still a somewhat new league after all. But it's simply not there yet.

 

* the NFL and MLB are the opposite situations where they capture virtually every football and baseball fan in the US. It's almost absurd to imagine a dedicated baseball fan who is  totally unaware of what's happening in MLB, for example.

[VampyrRabbit]

7 minutes ago, Cujo said:

 

This is VERY surprising to me. I would love to see this list, if possible.

 

4 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

Here are the NHL valuations and the MLS valuations from Forbes.

 

 It's not that surprising when you take into account the money pit in the Valley of the Sun. The Coyotes are 150 million behind the second last team (Sabres) in terms of value, and if the team was sold to owners who relocated the team to a new market that got behind the team, there would be 21 MLS teams with a lower value than the Buffalo Sabres.

[GDAWG]

53 minutes ago, OnWis97 said:

This is probably not the right board to bring this up on...

 

But sometimes I wonder whether the NHL belongs. We've been talking about the "Big 4" for decades and it's kinda stuck. Meanwhile, soccer has probably surpassed hockey in popularity.* Might we only have a Big 3 and given baseball's dwindling popularity, eventually a Big 2? (The NBA used to ebb and flow depending on what superstars are around but it feels a bit more stable than it has at certain times in the past).

 

I think the case for the NHL in general is that it has a well-established history with O6 teams and teams like the Flyers, Penguins, Kings, etc. engrained in their respective communities. 

 

*I think the case for the NHL over the MLS/soccer is because soccer fandom is very spread out. MLS is not even close to the best league/teams/players in the world and a lot of Americans follow Premier League, etc. In Minnesota, the MLS's United sell well and there is a dedicated base of fans that would be excited about a championship, but that would not compete with the regionwide excitement of a Stanley Cup. I assume this is the case in other markets with both leagues, but Minnesota might not be as good of an example as, say, DC or Miami area.

 

Once you start bringing in golf and motorsports, not to mention Premier League, I wonder whether the NHL is #4, depending on how we're measuring. But this topic (and the "Big #" phrase) is usually about team sports since the PGA doesn't have New York City laundry. And with soccer's attention spread more thinly,  the NHL is the #4 (professional) league. 

 

If there was a major top 4 Sports tours it would be PGA, ATP, NASCAR and UFC, although a case could be made for F1, but yeah the crux of this thread is team sports, specifically based in North America.  

[McCall]

12 minutes ago, GDAWG said:

 

If there was a major top 4 Sports tours it would be PGA, ATP, NASCAR and UFC, although a case could be made for F1, but yeah the crux of this thread is team sports, specifically based in North America.  

With the addition of the Las Vegas Grand Prix, the U.S. does have the most races on the F1 calendar by any single nation, which is kinda weird when you think about it. I know it's becoming more popular here (I didn't even start following it until 2020), but it still almost has a feel of us watching from the outside, kinda like European soccer.

[Cujo]

On 2/15/2024 at 1:06 PM, McCall said:

With the addition of the Las Vegas Grand Prix, the U.S. does have the most races on the F1 calendar by any single nation, which is kinda weird when you think about it. I know it's becoming more popular here (I didn't even start following it until 2020), but it still almost has a feel of us watching from the outside, kinda like European soccer.

 

Kinda like the NHL. Most ice hockey players are Canadian and the league is 10000x bigger in America's Hat. Yet 3/4th of teams are located in the US.

[BrySmalls]

On 2/14/2024 at 1:00 PM, GDAWG said:

We all know the Big 4 (NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL) but is there a fifth major league and if so who? 

 

I am not counting NASCAR because I consider them more of a major sports tour like PGA (golf) and ATP (Tennis) than a league. 

 

Currently, there's no fifth major league. MLS has the potential to become the fifth major league should they capitalize on the 2026 World Cup craze by evolving into the league where top talent come to play while in their prime instead of players coming here to bookend their professional careers after playing in Europe.

[Sykotyk]

On 3/7/2024 at 12:11 PM, BrySmalls said:

 

Currently, there's no fifth major league. MLS has the potential to become the fifth major league should they capitalize on the 2026 World Cup craze by evolving into the league where top talent come to play while in their prime instead of players coming here to bookend their professional careers after playing in Europe.

Having or not having the 'best' players in your league isn't the only metric for a country's major leagues.

 

If you want to get specific, then, there isn't really a 'major league' in soccer internationally. Not the EPL, not Serie A, not Bundesliga, none... Because they are a few 'great' teams that draw all the stars and a bunch of essentially AAA teams who cosplay as top tier teams.

 

In EPL, you can name the 4 or 5 likely winners of the league five years from now and probably be accurate. For every Leicester City, there's dozens of champions claimed by the repetitive, expected contenders.

 

MLS will never 'be that' because the league structure is far more American and they're not going to let Orlando or Kansas City or Nashville flounder as cannon fodder just so a few LA/NYC teams dominate the league year-to-year buying whoever they want. In US sporting culture, an European-styled league will not survive if it's the same few monied power-teams winning titles year after year after year.

 

Most of the country is probably annoyed that Kansas City just won a title two years in a row. Can you imagine if the NFL had a Bayern Munich-like team who have won the Bundesliga TEN STRAIGHT YEARS? There'd be 500 people at non-Bayern games.

[BrySmalls]

6 hours ago, Sykotyk said:

Having or not having the 'best' players in your league isn't the only metric for a country's major leagues.

 

If you want to get specific, then, there isn't really a 'major league' in soccer internationally. Not the EPL, not Serie A, not Bundesliga, none... Because they are a few 'great' teams that draw all the stars and a bunch of essentially AAA teams who cosplay as top tier teams.

 

In EPL, you can name the 4 or 5 likely winners of the league five years from now and probably be accurate. For every Leicester City, there's dozens of champions claimed by the repetitive, expected contenders.

 

MLS will never 'be that' because the league structure is far more American and they're not going to let Orlando or Kansas City or Nashville flounder as cannon fodder just so a few LA/NYC teams dominate the league year-to-year buying whoever they want. In US sporting culture, an European-styled league will not survive if it's the same few monied power-teams winning titles year after year after year.

 

Most of the country is probably annoyed that Kansas City just won a title two years in a row. Can you imagine if the NFL had a Bayern Munich-like team who have won the Bundesliga TEN STRAIGHT YEARS? There'd be 500 people at non-Bayern games.

 

The UEFA Champions League stands out as the sole major soccer (football) league that comes to mind for me.

[Sykotyk]

7 hours ago, BrySmalls said:

 

The UEFA Champions League stands out as the sole major soccer (football) league that comes to mind for me.

That's not a league, though. Regardless it's names intentions. It's just an expansion of the old Champions Cup, a tournament of league champions from around Europe. Which slowly started allowing more and more teams to participate and having a group stage that's a few games long. Teams playing in the Champions League still play their regular league schedule and compete for its championship at the same time.

 

Now, if you'd like to say that the CONCACAF Champions Cup is the premier 'league' of North America, I think you'll get some push back.

[LaGrandeOrange]

3 hours ago, Sykotyk said:

That's not a league, though. Regardless it's names intentions. It's just an expansion of the old Champions Cup, a tournament of league champions from around Europe. Which slowly started allowing more and more teams to participate and having a group stage that's a few games long. Teams playing in the Champions League still play their regular league schedule and compete for its championship at the same time.

 

Now, if you'd like to say that the CONCACAF Champions Cup is the premier 'league' of North America, I think you'll get some push back.

 

Indeed, to extend this out to its logical conclusion, the Club World Cup is now annual and doesn't limit itself to clubs from Europe...but you'd be hard pressed to find people who truly consider it the biggest league in club football.

[McCall]

On 3/8/2024 at 9:11 PM, BrySmalls said:

 

The UEFA Champions League stands out as the sole major soccer (football) league that comes to mind for me.

Tournaments aren't leagues.

 

EDIT: Correct word.

[Sykotyk]

*This was a response to a typo.*

[McCall]

2 hours ago, Sykotyk said:

So the NBA in season tournament was a whole new league? So the Bucks play in two leagues? 

 

You'd be hard pressed to find a single person outside your brain that thinks that. 

That was supposed to say "AREN'T" leagues. Just noticed it.

[McCall]

2 hours ago, Sykotyk said:

So the NBA in season tournament was a whole new league? So the Bucks play in two leagues? 

 

You'd be hard pressed to find a single person outside your brain that thinks that. 

It was a typo, but you don't have to be a d*** about it.

[Sykotyk]

1 hour ago, McCall said:

It was a typo, but you don't have to be a d*** about it.

The fact it was a typo makes so much more sense. Because I was really questioning where you were coming up with that statement.

 

No sweat though, I've forgotten to put in the 'not' part of a sentence before and had some really odd conversations afterwords.