NL MVP RACE

[NJTank]

Not out of the Wild Card.

[Seadragon76]

Go Pujols! Go Cabera! Hell, go.... Andruw Jones.

and Boo to Lee! Don't give him the MVP, it'll give the Cub fans hope, and that's the last thing any one wants to see.

[STL FANATIC]

Not out of the Wild Card.

The Cubs are in 4th, 15 back in the NL Central.

They're in 7th, 5 back in the Wild Card.

Can 5 games be made up? Sure, but it's hard to do that over 6 teams, and the Cubs are sliding down, not climbing up.

They should barely be considered in contention at all. Nobody thinks of the Brewers in contention (I apologize to Brewers fan...you deserve more, but trust me, the national media won't give it to you), but they're ahead of the Cubs.

[STL FANATIC]

And an update...

Pujols has increased his lead in BB/K which was already rather large. He has increased his runs lead to 10, and his RBI lead to 4. He has also overtaken Lee in OBP.

Also, Pujols has closed Lee's AVG lead down to .010, and continues to close the gap in SLG and OPS.

How can anybody not think this is a close MVP race?

[HedleyLamarr]

We've got about a third of the baseball season left, and right now there is an amazing race going on in the NL for the MVP. I figured I start a discussion on it.

You've got Derrek Lee who has had an amazing career year up to this point, but over the last few weeks has slowly started to comeback down to earth. Still, his stats are amazing and far above what he's done before.

Then, you've got Albert Pujols who is having a great year, though it's just about average for his career to this point. He hasn't really had a hot streak yet this year, but he has climbed right up with Lee.

Then, not quite with Lee and Pujols, at least not yet, is Miguel Cabrera. He's right up with them in some areas, but then not quite there in others. A prolonged hot streak would do it for him though.

I put together this little graphic for my sig to keep track of the MVP race. I opted not to include Cabrera, but I'm not discounting his season. He's got a chance.

A few weeks ago I think I would have given the MVP to Lee just barely. Contrary to my All Star Game criteria, previous seasons should have no factor in MVP voting whatsoever, so, to me Lee was having the best season, and by enough that the playoff factor didn't matter.

Now, Pujols is right there with him and ahead in some categories, and I think when you factor in the playoffs, Pujols is at least tied with Lee.

I'm iffy on the playoffs thing though. I mean, if the award is the most valuable player to a team, isn't it more likely that a star player on a non-playoff team is more valuable to his team than a star player on a playoff team that is likely filled with other stars?

That said, the voters always use the playoff as there reasons on controversial votes. Actually, scratch that, seems like lately the playoffs only matter when it's a Cardinal who is just as deserving as the winner. Like in '98 when Sosa beat McGwire out, all the voters used the playoff excuse. And when Bonds beat Pujols in '03, it was the playoff excuse again. Yet, when Bonds beat Pujols (and Rolen) just last year in '04, the playoffs didnt mean a thing. That might just be me being bitter, but it's a legit beef, and I'd like to see the voters be consistant (and not in passing over Cards, heh).

So, anyways, right now, I think it's too close to call. Pujols and Lee's seasons are near identical, but with the Cards being in the playoffs, and well, me being a Cards fan, if I had to choose, right now I'd go with Pujols.

Your thoughts?

Gee......Cardinal homertism strikes again.

Pujols is having a great year, don't get me wrong, but he's nowhere near being as valuable as Lee is to Chicago, Jones to Atlanta, or Ensberg to Houston. All of the Cardinal fans believe that Pujols should be the runaway winner because he came up short in the MVP voting the last couple years. St. Louis isn't as great as their record indicates, because they can rack up their wins against Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and Milwaukee. There's a reason why St. Louis doesn't have a winning record vs. the NL East teams.

The only way Derrek Lee wins the MVP is if he gets the Triple Crown, or the Cubs make the postseason. It doesn't look like either is going to happen, so Lee's out.

Ensberg isn't getting enough credit, as some guy named Roger is pitching pretty good, but he's helped the Astros from being a joke on the road to leading the Wild Card standings by August. He should finish in the top 5.

But the NL MVP, if I had to award it today, would go to Andruw Jones. He carried a struggling Braves team, crippled by injuries, from 6 games back to 5 games ahead in the division. The Braves had 10 rookies on the roster at one point....and have gained 11 games on the Nationals in the process.

Find me a player in the NL more valuable to his team than Andruw Jones to the Braves.

[STL FANATIC]

I'll actually admit that I think Andruw should be up there, as much as Lee. Andruw is indeed one of the few stars on his team, and he's playing for a first place team right now. Lee's playing for a fourth place team.

For the record Hedley, the Cubs and Astros get a lot of wins against the same teams, and the Brewers are actually better than the Cubs. The NL Central appeared to be a joke at the beginning of the year, but now it's a very respectable division.

It's not all about being valuable to your team btw. It's also about being the best player in the league, and being valuable enough that your team is a winning team.

This is anything but homerism by me. It's plain stupid to say Pujols isn't within this much (shows very small space between fingers) of anyone else for the MVP. That's not homerism. The only homerism was me saying I'd give the nod to Pujols, but I admited right then I said that because I was a Cardinals fan.

Of course, the last time the Cardinals homerism shouts came out was when I said Carpenter deserved to start the All Star Game...now he's the leading candidate for the Cy Young, but I'm sure you guys are still clinging to Clemens (won't argue he's right there with Carp) and Willis (will argue he's not very close to Carp right now).

[SEMOSTLfan]

well maybe the cardinals record against the NL east sucks but hey atlantas gonna win the east and then procede to choke in the division series so i can't say im too worried about that. the team that does scare me right now and in october is houston. I personally just think that pujols should get the nod for mvp because he is the model of consitancy and with bonds being out of the picture this is the only chance he has at being recognized. Lee however is a one year wonder....dont get me wrong i like the guy even though he is a cub but he's just never put up numbers like this and probably never will again. I want to see albert win it this year because next year when bonds come back he's an automatic lock for mvp when spring training starts not matter what he does and it will be like that until his sorry a$$ quits chasing the record that he doesnt deserve.

[HedleyLamarr]

I'll actually admit that I think Andruw should be up there, as much as Lee. Andruw is indeed one of the few stars on his team, and he's playing for a first place team right now. Lee's playing for a fourth place team.

For the record Hedley, the Cubs and Astros get a lot of wins against the same teams, and the Brewers are actually better than the Cubs. The NL Central appeared to be a joke at the beginning of the year, but now it's a very respectable division.

It's not all about being valuable to your team btw. It's also about being the best player in the league, and being valuable enough that your team is a winning team.

This is anything but homerism by me. It's plain stupid to say Pujols isn't within this much (shows very small space between fingers) of anyone else for the MVP. That's not homerism. The only homerism was me saying I'd give the nod to Pujols, but I admited right then I said that because I was a Cardinals fan.

Of course, the last time the Cardinals homerism shouts came out was when I said Carpenter deserved to start the All Star Game...now he's the leading candidate for the Cy Young, but I'm sure you guys are still clinging to Clemens (won't argue he's right there with Carp) and Willis (will argue he's not very close to Carp right now).

Being the best player in the league doesn't mean you should win the MVP (see Alex Rodriguez). Do you think that MVP should be awarded to the best player, even if his team finished in last place?

MVP......Most Valuable Player.....

Can you honestly say that Pujols is more valuable to the Cardinals than Andruw is to the Braves? Pujols is surrounded by All-Stars Eckstein, Walker, Rolen, and Edmonds, as well as Reggie Sanders. Jones has been surrounded by rookies and hobbled starters all season long, not to mention 60% of the Braves' original rotation spending a lot of time on the DL.

Of course, the last time the Cardinals homerism shouts came out was when I said Carpenter deserved to start the All Star Game...now he's the leading candidate for the Cy Young, but I'm sure you guys are still clinging to Clemens (won't argue he's right there with Carp) and Willis (will argue he's not very close to Carp right now).

For the record, I went with Livan Hernandez. He'd be right there with Carpenter if his bullpen didn't start falling apart.

But my choice for DH (Jones) did have a better performance than your choice for DH (Pujols) in Detroit, wouldn't you say?

[ROCHitman]

Yo, what about Andruw Jones?!

Let us not forget he had to carry that team full of rookie call up when Chipper was out and looks like he's gonna have to do it again.

Oh yeah, I vote for D. Lee.

[STL FANATIC]

Hedley, the award doesn't specify what your valuable to. When I said the best player in the league, I didn't mean year in and year out, I meant the best player that year.

An awesome player shouldn't get punished because he's on an awesome team. Do you think Pujols couldn't do what Lee has done for the Cubs or Jones for the Braves? I don't know for sure, but I think there is a pretty good chance he could carry them the same way. Yet, you want to punish him because the Cards have other good players too. That's not fair.

Also, I think people underestimate just how important Pujols is to the Cards. All of the Cardinals other stars have been and traditionally are pretty darn streaky. Pujols is the definition of consistancy. He really does carry this team.

Oh, and Hedley, Hernandez has an ERA of 3.37, 101 Ks, 58 BBs, and a 1.42 WHIP.

Carpenter has an era of 2.26, 151 Ks, 37 BBs, and a 0.99 WHIP.

The only statistic that a bad bullpen could really affect is the W-L record, and Livan has 13 wins. Doesn't appear his bullpen has been too bad for him, but all the individual stats that the bullpen has no affect on puts Carpenter WAY ahead of him.

I like Livan, but he's no Cy Young candidate, though I will give you at the time, he was one of four pitchers who could have easily been chosen to start and nobody should have argued.

[pcgd]

Here's the things I notice when you compare all 4 guys directly.

Andrew Jones, Albert Pujols and Miguel Caberra all have their teams in the playoff race.

Derrick Lee has a really really good hitter batting behind him (when Dusty's not a moron)

Pujols has 6 all stars on the team but lost quite a few starters and picked it up after that.

Jones has played with 10 rookies this year.

Games played is about the same for all.

ABs are about the same for all.

Puljos is leading in runs by 10.

Hits are roughly the same except for Jones who trails by 30+.

Doubles are about the same except for Jones who is behind by 7+.

Triples are all the same.

HRs are about the same except for Pujols and Caberra who trail by 5 and 10 from Jones.

RBIs they are all within 7 of each other.

Pujols leads the walks by 5 over lee, both of which are about 20 up on the other 2.

Lee and Pujols (the first basemen) are killing the outfielders in SBs. (which is really strange)

Average are within 10 points if you take Jones out of it, who is 80 points behind.

I think any of the 4 mentioned would be fine choices for MVP. Their stats are all very similar if you compare the 4 directly. Jones' leading his team over shaddows his statistical weaknesses. D. Lee's the same way, except he doesn't really have a statistical weakness.

But to me...I'm going to throw that out. This is my opinion and its kinda always been my opinion that the best player on one of the best teams deserves the MVP. There should be a Player of the Year award given to the best player statistically as well as the MVP.

Anyway...

I'm all for Andrew Jones getting the MVP...if he was batting .300 on the season. I know he's got a ton of HRs, but to me, I can't vote for a MVP if they aren't batting .300...but I don't vote on it.

I'm all for Derreck Lee getting the MVP...if he carried his team somewhere. He's carried them to being around .500 with one of the top hitters in the national league batting behind him. You could say the same thing for Carlos Lee, minus having a top hitter batting behind him.

I'm all for Miguel Cabera getting the MVP.

I'm all for Albert Pujols getting the MVP.

They both have lead their teams to being in the playoff races. Neither one has a really good hitter hitting behind them. Cabera's had a slighty better hitter behind him more than Pujols (Delgado vs Edmonds/Sanders) But neither one of those three are in the top 10 in very many statistics.

Pujols will lead his team to the playoffs, doesn't have a statistical weakness, and was the first player in ML history to hit 30 HRs in his first 5 seasons. He's become the leader on and off the field for the Cardinals this season after they lost their leaders in Mathney and Woody Williams last year. He's top 5 in every major offensive catagory, he's an excellent firstbasemen, and he's on a winning team. (and I'm a cardinal fan) That's why he's my MVP.

But like I said, any of those 4 deserve it as well as Ensberg for Houston (Houston's story is mostly a story of pitching and that's why he's not getting much attention.) I'm not going to try and say that one of them is way above the other, cause no matter how you look at it, they are all very similar ball players statistically. They all have their team strengths and weaknesses. Its a toss up really.

As far as Cy Young, to me toss up between Clemens and Carp.

Hedley:

And for the Cardinals not being good against the NL East...they are 10-11 against them right now. so what? The Braves are 6-9 against the West. At least the cardinals ahve a losing record against a good division.

[HedleyLamarr]

Hedley, the award doesn't specify what your valuable to. When I said the best player in the league, I didn't mean year in and year out, I meant the best player that year.

An awesome player shouldn't get punished because he's on an awesome team. Do you think Pujols couldn't do what Lee has done for the Cubs or Jones for the Braves? I don't know for sure, but I think there is a pretty good chance he could carry them the same way. Yet, you want to punish him because the Cards have other good players too. That's not fair.

Also, I think people underestimate just how important Pujols is to the Cards. All of the Cardinals other stars have been and traditionally are pretty darn streaky. Pujols is the definition of consistancy. He really does carry this team.

Oh, and Hedley, Hernandez has an ERA of 3.37, 101 Ks, 58 BBs, and a 1.42 WHIP.

Carpenter has an era of 2.26, 151 Ks, 37 BBs, and a 0.99 WHIP.

The only statistic that a bad bullpen could really affect is the W-L record, and Livan has 13 wins. Doesn't appear his bullpen has been too bad for him, but all the individual stats that the bullpen has no affect on puts Carpenter WAY ahead of him.

I like Livan, but he's no Cy Young candidate, though I will give you at the time, he was one of four pitchers who could have easily been chosen to start and nobody should have argued.

A-Rod had the best stats when he won the MVP. If I'm not mistaken, he led the AL in HR's and RBI's, and the top 10 in batting. But where was his value to the Rangers? Would they have finished worse than 4th in the West?

Pujols may be the soul of the Cardinals, but has he been more valuable to his team this season than Andruw Jones has been with the Braves? Pujols' getting shafted in the past shouldn't factor into him being MVP, nor his career success (Let's not turn this into the Heisman....). Take Jones away from the Braves, and where would Atlanta be? Do you honestly think the likes of Kelly Johnson, Ryan Langerhans, Wilson Betemit, Brian McCann, and Jeff Francoeur would have the Braves right where they are now, without Andruw? Add to that, the Braves missing Hudson, Hampton, and Thomson for extended periods of time, and using converted relievers in the process, and you see just how valuable Jones has been this year.

[STL FANATIC]

Well if you wanna chip in on the injury front, the Cards have been missing Walker, Rolen, Sanders, and Molina since about July 23rd, and actually, quite a bit more throughout the season. Edmonds is only having a good year, not the great years he's had in the past.

I DO think Pujols is as valuable to the Cards as Jones is to the Braves. And furthermore, it is not fair to hold Pujols team against him in the voting. Put Pujols in Jones situation, and he'd be leading the team just as Jones is.

[See Red]

I DO think Pujols is as valuable to the Cards as Jones is to the Braves. And furthermore, it is not fair to hold Pujols team against him in the voting. Put Pujols in Jones situation, and he'd be leading the team just as Jones is.

So it's not fair to hold Pujols' team against him... but it's fair to hold Lee's team against him?

[Jigga]

Whoever is the player with the best numbers on a contending team typically walks away with the award. It is not a popularity contest, but teams are generally held against the players. That is why middle of the pack teams do not usually have a viable candidate unless the numbers are monstrous AND there is no clear-cut favorite on a contender; see A-Rod in Texas. If I had a vote and had to use it right now, I would give it to Pujols, but if Andruw Jones can get his batting average to around .300, I think he is more deserving than anyone else under discussion is. If Derrek Lee wins the Triple Crown, while increasingly doubtful now, I think he would be the voter's choice.

[paynomind]

The discussion of who SHOULD win is an excellent one. But the problem is, the player who DOES win the MVP is rarely the right guy. For chrissakes Bonds won an MVP for a team that was out of the playoffs in July. Thats BS, and the MVP will continue to be awarded in similarly crappy manner until baseball clarifies the emaning of MVP.

If it means the player who should get the highest contract from any team the next year, based on this years performance, his past, and his future, Pujols is the winner.

If it means who most helped their team get into playoff contentions, AJ is the winner.

[STL FANATIC]

I DO think Pujols is as valuable to the Cards as Jones is to the Braves. And furthermore, it is not fair to hold Pujols team against him in the voting. Put Pujols in Jones situation, and he'd be leading the team just as Jones is.

So it's not fair to hold Pujols' team against him... but it's fair to hold Lee's team against him?

Never really said anybody should ITE. My point was that in the past the playoff thing has been thrown around like crazy, and in the last 8 years, it's prevented 2 Cards from winning the award.

[gashouser27]

Following is an excerpt from Brian Walton at Scout.com discussing the inconsistencies of MVP voting year-to-year. Pujols has been in it every year. This year, his team is more than in it, he isn't a kid, he has been consistent and there isn't a "most valuable three" to split the vote.

Listed here are some of the prevailing arguments used by others against Albert Pujols ' Most Valuable Player candidacy in recent seasons. See how many notes it takes you to recognize each tune.

Year

Pujols' rank in NL MVP vote

Reason to not win MVP

Argument

2004

Third place

Didn't stand out enough

Canceled out by MV3. Can't decide among Rolen, Edmonds and Pujols.

2003

Second place

Team not good enough

Can't select a player whose team missed the playoffs.

2002

Second place

Team too good

Cards won NL Central by 13 games while Bonds' Giants took the Wild Card the last week of the season.

2001

Fourth place

Too young

"Your chance will come soon enough, kid."

[STL FANATIC]

I just thought I pull this up now that there's under 20 games left in the season.

The race perhaps is as close as it was all year, but Lee now has a very outside shot, and it appears to be between Pujols and Jones.

I'm still going with Pujols here, but I'm sure that surprises nobody.

Where are you guys on this now?

[pcgd]

I'm a Jones Guy. His numbers are rediculous, and to tell you the truth, the most valuable people to the Cardinals have been the bench all year long. It almost seems without Pujols that the Cardinals still would win the division.

Don't get me wrong...I really really WANT to see Pujols win this award. (finally) I also want to see Carp win the Cy Young. But I have a funny feeling neither will happen.

My heart says Pujols...

but my head says Jones.

however, my head and my heart say Carp for Cy Young. (Another time...another thread)