More "Offensive" NCAA Mascots.

[rmered]

Need legal clarification here:

If I was to publically state that something you did was "hostile or abusive" when it clearly wasn't, do you get to sue me?

If so, FSU should see how much money it costs the NCAA to call them something they clearly are not.

[VitaminD]

There is no need to get all in a huff over it. 

No huff, just clarifying something. More on that in a second...

The students chose the nickname Fighting Irish.

The students officially adopted the name after the Irish Free State was created and the Irish Revolution had been fought. The name went from being an offensive slur to a noble description of the ancestors of many of the ND students (and yours and mine as well) only through serendipity and historical events that occurred far from South Bend, Indiana. As a matter of happy coincidence, the Irish were able to remove their British rulers from all but 6 counties of the island, a "#16 v. #1" upset if there ever was one. Irish-Americans were justifiably proud of what their kinsmen had accomplished back home, and were able to take the slur and make it something to be proud of. They didn't take to it quite so much when it was being yelled at them by Northwestern fans 25-30 years earlier.

And for the record Irish is not a race neither is protestant, British, or German.

Viewed from the prism of the year 2005, Irish and Germans are all lumped into the broad category known as "white folk". But again, go back 100-150 years. Irish and Germans were called "white n------" and kept out of most of American society. They were the targets of bigotry and discrimination, denied jobs and housing, and treated as an inferior people by the ruling Anglo-Saxon Protestant class.

And as for whether or not you can apply the term "race" to the Irish, the British, the Germans, the Protestants, or whoever, I respectfully beg to differ. What follows is courtesy of dictionary.com - pay special attention to #2. (The example comes from the Web site, ironically enough.)

1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.

2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

3. A genealogical line; a lineage.

4. Humans considered as a group.

For the record, I am in almost complete agreement with you, infrared. But I do take offense at people who think "Fighting Irish" is OK because in the year 2005, it has come to mean something noble or admirable as a byproduct of Notre Dame's athletic success and events in European history. Time and a change in how the Irish are viewed in American society have taken the insult out of the nickname, but make no mistake, it was invented to be derogatory at a time when the Irish were not seen as "Americans" [i.e. white people whose ancestors came from England... and I realize this doesn't even factor in blacks and native Americans at that time]. You cannot detach the nickname from its early history, but too many people choose to, either because they don't know or don't care.

I have no beef with Notre Dame using the Irish nickname; my beef is with those who blow it off as a counterargument against the PC Police who seek to rid the world of any name that someone might be bothered by. When the name was created by Notre Dame's rivals, it was intended to be offensive. Times have changed, but it doesn't excuse the intent of its creators.

Most of the research came from Notre Dame's web site and Notre Dame publications, and knowledge of both European and American history. My dad ironically hangs a "NINA" sign over his desk ["MEN WANTED... NO IRISH NEED APPLY"].

[winghaz]

But again, go back 100-150 years. Irish and Germans were called "white n------" and kept out of most of American society.

I don't think the Germans were targeted very much 100 to 150 years ago. They were, however, targeted a lot during World War I (not so much World War II, though).

[infrared41]

There is no need to get all in a huff over it. 

No huff, just clarifying something. More on that in a second...

The students chose the nickname Fighting Irish.

The students officially adopted the name after the Irish Free State was created and the Irish Revolution had been fought. The name went from being an offensive slur to a noble description of the ancestors of many of the ND students (and yours and mine as well) only through serendipity and historical events that occurred far from South Bend, Indiana. As a matter of happy coincidence, the Irish were able to remove their British rulers from all but 6 counties of the island, a "#16 v. #1" upset if there ever was one. Irish-Americans were justifiably proud of what their kinsmen had accomplished back home, and were able to take the slur and make it something to be proud of. They didn't take to it quite so much when it was being yelled at them by Northwestern fans 25-30 years earlier.

And for the record Irish is not a race neither is protestant, British, or German.

Viewed from the prism of the year 2005, Irish and Germans are all lumped into the broad category known as "white folk". But again, go back 100-150 years. Irish and Germans were called "white n------" and kept out of most of American society. They were the targets of bigotry and discrimination, denied jobs and housing, and treated as an inferior people by the ruling Anglo-Saxon Protestant class.

And as for whether or not you can apply the term "race" to the Irish, the British, the Germans, the Protestants, or whoever, I respectfully beg to differ. What follows is courtesy of dictionary.com - pay special attention to #2. (The example comes from the Web site, ironically enough.)

1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.

2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

3. A genealogical line; a lineage.

4. Humans considered as a group.

For the record, I am in almost complete agreement with you, infrared. But I do take offense at people who think "Fighting Irish" is OK because in the year 2005, it has come to mean something noble or admirable as a byproduct of Notre Dame's athletic success and events in European history. Time and a change in how the Irish are viewed in American society have taken the insult out of the nickname, but make no mistake, it was invented to be derogatory at a time when the Irish were not seen as "Americans" [i.e. white people whose ancestors came from England... and I realize this doesn't even factor in blacks and native Americans at that time]. You cannot detach the nickname from its early history, but too many people choose to, either because they don't know or don't care.

I have no beef with Notre Dame using the Irish nickname; my beef is with those who blow it off as a counterargument against the PC Police who seek to rid the world of any name that someone might be bothered by. When the name was created by Notre Dame's rivals, it was intended to be offensive. Times have changed, but it doesn't excuse the intent of its creators.

Most of the research came from Notre Dame's web site and Notre Dame publications, and knowledge of both European and American history. My dad ironically hangs a "NINA" sign over his desk ["MEN WANTED... NO IRISH NEED APPLY"].

Excellent argument. I concede the point. Very well done.

Sorry I misunderstood the mood of your previous post.

[HedleyLamarr]

Hell, why stop at Indian logos?

I'm sure people of Hispanic descent hate the nickname "49'ers" (and Miners) since that pretty much threw the "white man" to prominence in California.

"Demon Deacons" could seem offensive to some Presbyterians.

Cardinals could be offensive to Catholics, as could Friars, Crusaders (also offensive to muslims), Saints, Battlin Bishops, or Padres.

Buccaneers and Pirates can be quite offensive to people who lost family members to pirates (yarggh) of either modern or ye olden tymes...

The list goes on. Please tell me how in the hell The Florida Seminoles mascot detracts or otherwise harms a single person who is of Seminole birth or heritage? Hell, if it were not for the University of Illinois, I would not even know the state was named after an Indian tribe!

[OMMF]

Hell, why stop at Indian logos?

I'm sure people of Hispanic descent hate the nickname "49'ers" (and Miners) since that pretty much threw the "white man" to prominence in California.

"Demon Deacons" could seem offensive to some Presbyterians.

Cardinals could be offensive to Catholics, as could Friars, Crusaders (also offensive to muslims), Saints, Battlin Bishops, or Padres.

Buccaneers and Pirates can be quite offensive to people who lost family members to pirates (yarggh) of either modern or ye olden tymes...

The list goes on. Please tell me how in the hell The Florida Seminoles mascot detracts or otherwise harms a single person who is of Seminole birth or heritage? Hell, if it were not for the University of Illinois, I would not even know the state was named after an Indian tribe!

These "What about the other people?" responses are almost as tired as the actual topic.

[HedleyLamarr]

These "What about the other people?" responses are almost as tired as the actual topic.

..and I suppose this post brings a new perspective to the thread?

[OMMF]

These "What about the other people?" responses are almost as tired as the actual topic.

..and I suppose this post brings a new perspective to the thread?

As much as yours did.