Bonds vs. Selig *merged*

[STL FANATIC]

Buc, I see what your saying. I stick up for Big Mac. But here's the thing...the evidence against Mac is minimal. There is much more evidence with Mac to conclude that he worked out like crazy and used a bunch of legal supplements to gain his size.

The idea that Mac used illegal steriods is based primarily on the fact that he is big and the fact that he wouldn't put up with Congress' crap during the hearings. But that's still not much more than speculation that most people buy into.

With Barry...the evidence is overwhelming. You want me to admit there's a chance he could be clean? Well, I will. There's a chance.

But the chance that Bonds loaded up on steriods is SO much greater that you should not be offended, disappointed, or even surprised that people believe it to be just about fact that Barry used illegal supplements.

[buildingmaint]

How come it is OK for McGwire to get big, and not OK for Bonds to get big?McGwire had a crazy work out schedule ?That's how he got big?So I guess Bonds took steroids ate a gallon of ice cream and then took a nap. He woke up with big muscles ?No you have to work out to get big .

[Bleujayone]

From the Boston Globe's Eric Wilbur;

...The one excuse I love is, ?But steroids weren?t illegal in baseball.? Great. Neither was brandishing a machete out to left field and threatening the groundskeeper, but you think a court of law might have a problem with that? Attempted murder isn?t in the baseball rulebook as a no-no? Oh, well then it?s fine.

Only the most foolish of baseball fans are out there this morning, muttering, ?Let?s see where they?re going with this?? Barry Bonds is a cheater. He was once a heck of a ballplayer, a legacy tarnished by his rampant drug use out of alleged jealousy over Mark McGwire?s 1998 pursuit of Roger Maris.

He cheated. Himself, the fans, the game and its history.

Will Bonds walk away? It would probably be best for him and the game. Don?t count on it....

Complete Article:

Just Walk Away, Barry

[STL FANATIC]

How come it is OK for McGwire to get big, and not OK for Bonds to get big?McGwire had a crazy work out schedule ?That's how he got big?So I guess Bonds took steroids ate a gallon of ice cream and then took a nap. He woke up with big muscles ?No you have to work out to get big .

No, they both had a crazy work out schedule.

The thing is, the only legitimate evidence about Mac using supplements is his Andro which would imply legal supplements (unless you consider Canseco and Mac telling Congress to stop their witchhunt by saying nthing legit evidence...I don't).

There is overwhelming legit evidence that Bonds used ILLEGAL supplements to help him build his muscle.

The truth is though that your complaint doesn't hold water with most people. Sadly, most people are willing to say Mac clearly cheated. If people think the little, weak evidence against Mac proves something, it's no wonder Bonds taking steroids is considered fact.

[CS85]

McGwire wasn't investigated because:

-baseball needed a revival

-baseball needed good PR

-baseball needed the home run race

And if they would've dug deep, they could've found something more than likely. But McGwire was also always a pretty big guy in general. Bonds changed who he was in a span of a few years late in his career, stuff like that doesn't happen naturally.

[STL FANATIC]

McGwire wasn't investigated because:

-baseball needed a revival

-baseball needed good PR

-baseball needed the home run race

And if they would've dug deep, they could've found something more than likely. But McGwire was also always a pretty big guy in general. Bonds changed who he was in a span of a few years late in his career, stuff like that doesn't happen naturally.

McGwire was always big, although he got a lot bigger than he did from his rookie season. However, that didn't happen in an overwhelmingly short time, it didn't happen at an awkward age, and it's fact that Mac worked out like crazy and took legal supplements to help him be able to work out more. So his growth can be easily explained.

McGwire wasn't investigated because steroids weren't an issue, albeit it was for the reasons you stated. I'm just saying it's not just McGwire that wasn't investigated, it's a lot of others too.

As for whether they would have found something? Maybe. Maybe not. It's been a witch hunt, but nobody has been able to find anything major on him yet.

I don't need a test to believe a guy did them. That's shown from me believing this evidence pretty much confirms Bonds did them.

But I do need that kind of evidence. It's just not there against Mac. If it gets brought out, I'll have to reconsider my opinion, but as of now that evidence isn't there.

And, just to add...even if someone brought truly damning evidence against Mac, I'd still like the guy. The man is honorable (though I wouldn't like that he'd have lied). He wants to help. He stopped taking Andro because he didn't want kids to do it (he stopped before it became illegal). He's just a nice guy and a good teammate.

Barry is anything but.

[CS85]

I'm always going to consider McGwire to be the most awesome slugger I've ever seen, and that's big considering I'm a Cub fan. Watching that guy pepper balls into the river during BP at Busch was a freaking spectacle, and I was on my feet like everybody else when he hit 62. McGwire is who I will remember as the last home run king.

[VitaminD]

Bud Selig makes Gary Bettman look like Pete Rozelle.

For any good Bud's done while Commissioner, his years are going to be forever tainted by this steroids scandal. Until definitive action is taken against those who were using, the problem will loom over the game.

Is he that afraid of Barry Bonds? Christ, he's the commissioner of Major League Baseball. It's his show, and he can't deal with one of his players? If and when Bonds passes Babe Ruth and/or Hank Aaron, the backlash is going to be palpable and ugly. And how can you not see Barry Bonds from 50 feet away - that gigantic horse's head, the overblown body. Who'd you think that guy was, Bud? What was everyone else in the room whispering nervously about?

[VitaminD]

All im saying is, is it 100% impossible that the guy is accually telling the truth? Is it at all impossible that a guy who is being accused of a whole lot, yet still sticks to his story, and has the whole time, may accually be dong so because he has been legit? No. Its not impossible.

[truncated]

Where the fu*k is your proof? You pull all this talk that i am blind because i dont agree with you, well to that i say, show me proof. Pull up some sort of document, legit document, anything, that prooves that Bonds used steriods and maybee you just may sway me.

Proof is physiologic.

After a man reaches his mid-30s, the levels of testosterone in the body drop markedly. We stop growing, and our bodies begin to slow down. As such, a man's ability to add muscles naturally is decreased. For Barry Bonds to put on 20-25 pounds of solid muscle while maintaining freakishly low body fat in a matter of months at age 35 defies physiology.

In addition to the disturbing amount of muscle mass he added without adding fat that we all do as we get older (slower metabolism mostly, with less activity thrown in for most), he manifested the secondary characteristics of this surge in testosterone. Acne, especially on the back. Thinning hair. Enlarged skull.

Basically, he's undergone an artificial second puberty. It's just not the way human beings are designed to be. You don't all of a sudden get a growth spurt in your mid-30s.

Not only do the numbers I've already stated paint the picture that his best seasons came after age 36 (virtually impossible), those numbers were achieved as his body underwent this alleged physiologic miracle. All of which came coincidentally after America fell in love with McGwire and Sosa. And I for one disagree with STL - McGwire is just as guilty as Bonds; he was just smart enough to bluff people with the andro "confession", and people left it at that. None of these guys are going to just come out and confess it, because everything they are hinges on their accomplishments. That they may have done it artificially not only taints their image and their achievements, it undermines their very existence as the result of fraud and deceit.

And nothing in life will ever be 100%. In this country, "beyond the shadow of a doubt" is enough to convict someone to death. That's more than fair with Bonds as well.

[CC97]

Pressboxes are crowded and narrow... it's easy to miss someone 50 feet away in a room like that.

[NJTank]

Especially if you close your eyes cover your ears and statrt screaming I dont see him LA LA LA

[jkrdevil]

Do you have any legitimate proof that Bonds used steriods? And when i say legitimate, i mean something thats not these stupid books?

With all due respect, bucfan, were you blind in the 90's?

Barry Bonds with the Pirates = "athletic" build, All-Star, above average player.

Barry leaves for Giants.

Barry Bonds with the Giants = The incredible 'ing hulk who could BUNT it out of the park.

It was and still is insanely obvious, tests or no tests, "legitimate" proof or not...when my eyes watch a man put on 900 lbs. of muscle (i exaggerate, i know) in a matter of a few seasons...SOMETHING extra is going on.

Oh you know waht, i think you just swayed me. I have changed my entire opinion on the Bonds issue, because your right. Bonds MUST have taken steriods because his size did obviously change from the mid 80s to the early 21st century. Know what? They should kick Bonds out, and i better warn my neighbors of their sons obvious steriod use because hes WAY bigger now at 15 than he was at 5. And you call me blind.

Well under your way of thinking Nixon wasn't involved in Watergate. After all that was a story uncovered by investigative journalist who reported it and then later wrote a full account book on it.

It's the same thing here with Bonds. You have 2 reporters who looked into the situation did a ton of interviewers and looked and dug up evidence. I read the excerpt in Sports Illustrated and they reporters are able to explain everything from multiple sources.

Bonds was the target of the BALCO investigation. When they raided BALCO they asked Conte about Bonds, the same thing with Anderson. What happened was the prosecutor dropped the ball and treated it like a normal drug investigation and went after Conte and Anderson and ended up giving Bonds immunity.

And if you want to look at photo evidence look at Bonds from 1998 to 1999 to 2000. That is much more convincing than from 1986 to 2006.

Hopefully the prosecution will wake up because of this and a perjury charge may call.

[VitaminD]

Pressboxes are crowded and narrow... it's easy to miss someone 50 feet away in a room like that.

True. But my point, was given the recent controversy swirling about Barry Bonds and steroids, and Bud Selig being commissioner of MLB and may just punish Bonds after all (like these allegations are surprising), don't you think there would have been even a couple awkward silences or glances from other people in the room (if it was a crowded press box), that SOMEONE would've realized that Selig and Bonds were in the same room? Even the same stadium? It's not like Michigan Stadium - there's only a few thousand at a spring game, and given the relative celebrity of each person within the sphere of baseball, I find it all the more doubtful that neither knew the other was there.

[yh]

Bud Selig makes Gary Bettman look like Pete Rozelle.

Nothing personal and no disrespect to you whatsoever, Sir, but you should be flayed alive and burned at the stake for taking Pete Rozelle's name in vain like that!!!

Perhaps a better analogy would be that Bud Selig makes Fay Vincent look like Kennesaw Mountain Landis.

Or something like that.

[winters in buffalo]

... or Bud Selig makes Bart Giamatti look like Susan Saradon.

[T-man3]

Wow thats scarry

[brinkeguthrie]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/base...s.ap/index.html

[brinkeguthrie]

OK, well now he says, maybe not. Maybe Bud will start thinking Bonds got all his steroids from someone on a grassy knoll, too.

Clueless.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?.../s174608S58.DTL

[NJTank]

Selig wil act when Congress paints him in a corner again.

[VitaminD]

Selig wil act when Congress paints him in a corner again.

Grandstanding Congressmen will give Selig 5 Barry Bonds HRs to act on his own. Someone's going to try and stick up for Babe Ruth's place as #2 all-time and hope that something gets done before Bonds eclipses Aaron. Just my prediction.

Unless Bud's too busy typing up a resignation statement, that is...