What would have happened if the Washington Senators didn't move to Minnesota?

[TheOldRoman]

Did part of the struggle to retain the Sox have to do with most of the legislature being supporters of the Cardinals and Cubs and thus unwilling to devote public funds to the White Sox?

I think that was a part of it. The most important reason was that downstate politicians got nothing out of it. They would have to listen to their constituency complain that instead of addressing their needs, they gave $130 million of the state's money to build a stadium 6 hours away from them that would benefit Chicago and not them. Downstaters are very different than Chicagoans. Chicago has nothing to do with them, so generally they could care less about what happens there.

[So_Fla]

Give me a few days and I'll have a good run down of how baseball and Bill White in particular, lied like a rug to keep the Giants in SF and allowing McGowan to pay less than the Tampa Bay bid in the first place.

BTW...the Giants home jersey was going to stay the same. The road jersey and the caps were going to have an interlocking TB that matched the font that the Giants were using in San Fransisco.

It was an ugly, ugly situation how that MLB let the Giants stay in San Fransisco.

It was the White Sox that were going to change colors to green and gold and become the Florida White Sox. I still have the t-shirt and cap. I also have a Tampa Bay Mariners shirt and a Tampa Bay Twins cap.

[Luigi74]

The Pirates where never going to move to South Florida in the 90's, they almost got sold to a group that would have moved them to New Orleans in the 80's but a local ownership group stepped in and bought them and Kevin McClatchy's plan when he bought the team was to move them to Sacermento if they couldnt get a stadium in Pittsburgh(which he never thought he would get but did).

[Gothamite]

the truth is not one of us would like to called a racist yet some of us have no problem with labeling others.

If the shoe fits, my friend. Just ask Rod Carew.

"Labeling others"? If I ever said such things about black people, then you would be perfectly justified in calling me a racist. How are we to judge a man's opinions if not by his own words?

From Wikipedia, so take it for what it is worth:

IOW, not much....

Chicago White Sox

Selig was denied an expansion franchise at the 1968 owners meetings, and turned his efforts toward purchasing and relocating an existing club. His search began close to home, with the White Sox themselves. According to Selig, he had a handshake agreement with Arthur Allyn in early 1969 to purchase a majority stake in the Pale Hose and move them north to the Cream City. The American League, however, blocked the sale, unwilling to give up its presence in a major city. Allyn instead sold his shares to his brother John, who agreed to stay in Chicago. Selig would go on to buy the Seattle Pilots and move them to Milwaukee instead.

Except that part - I wrote it.

It's true, too - the Sox played a handful of "home" games in Milwaukee during the 1968 and 1969 seasons, and the city went absolutely nuts for them. The nine games in '68 and eleven games in '69 drew one-third of the total Sox attendance those years.

The Milwaukee White Sox came within a league vote of becoming a reality.

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

Ltp - Thanks for more info on the Pirates situation. So, those rumours at the end of 1995 that had Leyland so upset involved a move to New Orleans, and not to St. Pete?

Gothamite - I am amazed that anyone can dispute the description of Calvin Griffith as an overt racist.

Give me a few days and I'll have a good run down of how baseball and Bill White in particular, lied like a rug to keep the Giants in SF and allowing McGowan to pay less than the Tampa Bay bid in the first place.

You say that like it's a bad thing!

It was an ugly, ugly situation how that MLB let the Giants stay in San Fransisco.

The act of keeping a historic franchise in its longtime city is "ugly"? I will have to emphatically disagree with you on that one. I mean, I understand the self-interest of "I want a team, no matter how". But, do you not see that it is always preferable to avoid a franchise shift when possible?

With that stadium sitting there, it was all but certain that Tampa Bay would eventually get an expansion team, which is the correct way for a new market to join the Majors. (Of course, the question of whether Tampa Bay was an appropriate market for Major League Baseball in the first place is another, very worthwhile, discussion.)

Whatever schemes Bill White and the NL office had to pull off to keep the Giants from moving a second time, and to place the team in the hands of owners who would do the right thing (that is, keep it in SF), he should be applauded by any baseball fan with a sense of history.

Just as Captain Kirk broke Federation law by stealing the Enterprise to do the morally correct act of rescuing Spock, Bill White showed leadership for the ages by brokering the deal to keep the Giants in San Francisco, no matter what league rules he may have bent/broken/ignored.

[Leonard]

I was wondering myself.

If the original Senators (the team that moved to Minneapolis in 1961) had not moved to Minnesota and the New York Giants did, I guess the Giants would be known as the Minnesota Giants (probably wouldn't make much sense). My guess is the 1960 Washington Senators would have relocated to San Francisco and the 1971 Washington Senators would have moved to Arlington on schedule.

It was a very good question and I hope I was able to give you a satisfactory answer.

[Gothamite]

If the original Senators (the team that moved to Minneapolis in 1961) had not moved to Minnesota and the New York Giants did, I guess the Giants would be known as the Minnesota Giants (probably wouldn't make much sense).

I've seen this comment a couple times.

The Giants were not named for the New York skyline. They were so named because of their dominant play, towering over the competition, if you will.

Most sources credit then-manager Jim Mutrie's quote "My big fellows! My giants!" in 1885 as the source of the team name.

Whether that is true or not, there is no reason that "Minneapolis Giants" wouldn't make sense or that the nickname would have had to be changed if they landed anywhere outside of San Francisco (which is a redwood reference, I presume?).

[jhans203]

Give me a few days and I'll have a good run down of how baseball and Bill White in particular, lied like a rug to keep the Giants in SF and allowing McGowan to pay less than the Tampa Bay bid in the first place.

BTW...the Giants home jersey was going to stay the same. The road jersey and the caps were going to have an interlocking TB that matched the font that the Giants were using in San Fransisco.

It was an ugly, ugly situation how that MLB let the Giants stay in San Fransisco.

It was the White Sox that were going to change colors to green and gold and become the Florida White Sox. I still have the t-shirt and cap. I also have a Tampa Bay Mariners shirt and a Tampa Bay Twins cap.

Pictures??? I know all of us here would love to see what you have?

[smith03]

I judge people by their totality of their words and their actions over their life. I don't just take a few statements made and conclude what type a person he is.

So far no one including you Gothamite who was first person to make the statment that he was "notorious racist" have added any examples outside of the two that I gave 18 years apart and than the statement made by Carew shortly after the second one.

if he was such a notorious racist I would think there would be tons of examples out there. I am just asking people who think he was a racist to provide some examples. Like I have stated before I don't think two stupid statments made 18 years apart are enough for me at least to call someone a racist.

[B-Rich]

It was the White Sox that were going to change colors to green and gold and become the Florida White Sox. I still have the t-shirt and cap. I also have a Tampa Bay Mariners shirt and a Tampa Bay Twins cap.

1. SoFla, could I ask you to PLEASE get some shots of those and post, particularly the Florida White Sox logo. I remember seeing that briefly on TV back in 1988, and am trying to jog my memory-- I seem to recall the state of florida outline and perhaps a star in the Tampa Bay area made a sort of cursive "F"?

2. In the 70s in New Orleans, shortly after the Superdome opened, it was rumored we might get the A's, and speculation was that they'd add purple to their color sceme to get the Mardi Gras colors of purple green and gold.... another team rumored for New Orleans around that time was the Cleveland Indians. I guess if that would've gone down, they would have had to exchange Wahoo for a "Mardi Gras Indian" motif:

Man, I love "what if" threads....

[jrh31584]

From Wikipedia, so take it for what it is worth:

LA Dodgers

When Los Angeles officials attended the 1955 World Series looking to entice a team to move to the City of Angels, they were not even thinking of the Dodgers. Their original target was the lowly Washington Senators (who would in fact move to Minneapolis and become the Minnesota Twins in 1961).

If the Senators did move to LA, could Harmon Killebrew have hit more than 61 home runs in '61? Given that a team there would probably be playing half of its games at the Coliseum (251 feet to left field) or Wrigley Field (345-foot power alleys), I think it's a possibility.

[Luigi74]

Ltp - Thanks for more info on the Pirates situation. So, those rumours at the end of 1995 that had Leyland so upset involved a move to New Orleans, and not to St. Pete?

In 1995 Leyland was upset that the new ownership was going to move the team somewhere at that point no real city was pegged as the new home for the Bucco's, a year or two later was when the rumors of Sacermento started, the almost move to N.O. was in the early to mid-80's.

[Gothamite]

I judge people by their totality of their words and their actions over their life. I don't just take a few statements made and conclude what type a person he is.

So far no one including you Gothamite who was first person to make the statment that he was "notorious racist" have added any examples outside of the two that I gave 18 years apart and than the statement made by Carew shortly after the second one.

if he was such a notorious racist I would think there would be tons of examples out there. I am just asking people who think he was a racist to provide some examples. Like I have stated before I don't think two stupid statments made 18 years apart are enough for me at least to call someone a racist.

He moved his baseball club away from its home of 60 years because of the color of his patrons' skin. What more "action" would you like?

You like to downplay his vicious comments, but let's not forget what he actually said:

"I'll tell you why we came to Minnesota. It was when we found out you only had 15,000 blacks here. Black people don't go to ballgames, but they'll fill up a rassling ring and put up such a chant it'll scare you to death. We came here because you've got good, hardworking white people here."

That's what he was comfortable saying in public and after the civil rights movement. Speaks volumes.

He also consistently opposed the integration of the major leagues (although that had a financial component for him as well, as he rented out his stadium to the Grays, double-dipping at the box office).

He was not only a racist, and I'm sure he had many nice qualities as well, but that he was a racist cannot be credibly denied.

[smith03]

I judge people by their totality of their words and their actions over their life. I don't just take a few statements made and conclude what type a person he is.

So far no one including you Gothamite who was first person to make the statment that he was "notorious racist" have added any examples outside of the two that I gave 18 years apart and than the statement made by Carew shortly after the second one.

if he was such a notorious racist I would think there would be tons of examples out there. I am just asking people who think he was a racist to provide some examples. Like I have stated before I don't think two stupid statments made 18 years apart are enough for me at least to call someone a racist.

He moved his baseball club away from its home of 60 years because of the color of his patrons' skin. What more "action" would you like?

You like to downplay his vicious comments, but let's not forget what he actually said:

"I'll tell you why we came to Minnesota. It was when we found out you only had 15,000 blacks here. Black people don't go to ballgames, but they'll fill up a rassling ring and put up such a chant it'll scare you to death. We came here because you've got good, hardworking white people here."

That's what he was comfortable saying in public and after the civil rights movement. Speaks volumes.

He also consistently opposed the integration of the major leagues (although that had a financial component for him as well, as he rented out his stadium to the Grays, double-dipping at the box office).

He was not only a racist, and I'm sure he had many nice qualities as well, but that he was a racist cannot be credibly denied.

You may be confusing some of that for Clark Griffith, by the time Calvin took over the team in about what '55 baseball was integrated.

[leopard88]

You may be confusing some of that for Clark Griffith, by the time Calvin took over the team in about what '55 baseball was integrated.

Which means you would only be deleting this paragraph:

He also consistently opposed the integration of the major leagues (although that had a financial component for him as well, as he rented out his stadium to the Grays, double-dipping at the box office).

[Gothamite]

You're right - that was Clark. I gladly stand corrected. And we do not hold the son responsible for the sins of the father.

But the rest stands. And Calvin had sufficient sin in this area. Note that when his quote was reported, he didn't immediately deny saying it - he said it was taken out of context and that he was trying to get a laugh. Neither speaks particularly well of him.

[smith03]

You're right - that was Clark. I gladly stand corrected.

But the rest stands.

And so we are back to his two stupid statements that what make him in your words a "notorious racists".

[Gothamite]

And the moving of the team to a much smaller market, which he himself claimed was partially motivated by race.

Besides, aren't those statements enought to tell us what he thought of his fellow man? Can you give any examples of his actions that show he wasn't a racist, that the universal perception of him is somehow wrong?

[leopard88]

At this point, are we arguing over "notorious" or "racist"?

[Gothamite]

At this point, are we arguing over "notorious" or "racist"?

An excellent question.