Manny tests positive

[NJTank]

I'm almost at the point where I say screw it

NO BODY WAS CHEATING, BECAUSE EVERYONE WAS CHEATING!!!

[The_Admiral]

Frank Thomas was clean, actually.

[Jigga]

You can't really believe that, can you?

[STL FANATIC]

Except the Cardinals. The Cardinals were never dirty. No one ever proved McGwire was juicing. We are ALL Cardinals.

That last part is true about McGwire, actually. Even so, I'm done worrying about him. Everything he did was definitely before MLB banned substances (we know of things like Andro). He may or may not have done substances that were illegal in the country, we don't know because nothing specific has been traced. Clubs were punishable if players took PEDs via a memo, but there was nothing they could do to players who took them.

But that's not important, Mac's not the discussion.

Also, of course the Cardinals were dirty. No more or less than others, however. There's a whole list of guys who've been on the Cardinals the last 15 years that have been linked, surely some of that use took place while they played here.

I know it was a tongue-in-cheek make fun of me moment, but this is how I respond to those.

[Gothamite]

Except the Cardinals. The Cardinals were never dirty. No one ever proved McGwire was juicing. We are ALL Cardinals.

That last part is true about McGwire, actually. Even so, I'm done worrying about him. Everything he did was definitely before MLB banned substances (we know of things like Andro). He may or may not have done substances that were illegal in the country, we don't know because nothing specific has been traced.

Didn't the MLB banned-substance agreement of the time specifically ban anything that was itself already illegal? If so, some of the things he might have taken at the time were prohibted by baseball despite not being specifically mentioned on a list.

[STL FANATIC]

Except the Cardinals. The Cardinals were never dirty. No one ever proved McGwire was juicing. We are ALL Cardinals.

That last part is true about McGwire, actually. Even so, I'm done worrying about him. Everything he did was definitely before MLB banned substances (we know of things like Andro). He may or may not have done substances that were illegal in the country, we don't know because nothing specific has been traced.

Didn't the MLB banned-substance agreement of the time specifically ban anything that was itself already illegal? If so, some of the things he might have taken at the time were prohibted by baseball despite not being specifically mentioned on a list.

To be honest, I really don't know. I used to think so, but then somehow I got under the impression that there really was no agreement between the MLB and the MLBPA it was just a general guidelines thing that the league could enforce against teams (but didn't) and not against players.

[BJ Sands]

If I'm remembering correctly, then-commissioner Fay Vincent sent out a memo in 1991 that stated steroids are banned. It didn't really matter because baseball wasn't testing for anything.

So steroids have been against the rules of baseball for almost two decades. Just it wasn't possible for anybody to be punished until 2004.

[Cujo]

Frank Thomas was clean, actually.

Sure he was.

According to reports this morning, it now looks like Manny's going to go down for steroids, not that cover-up female pill.

[IceCap]

I have to admit, I find a morbid sort of amusement in watching a sport I love self destruct like this.

At this point I say either MLB has to REALLY commit to taking care of this problem or just legalize most of the stuff they're taking anyway. Enough of this half-a$$ed BS.

[The_Admiral]

Frank Thomas was clean, actually.

Sure he was.

Say what you will about the White Sox, but they seem to have run a pretty tight ship when it comes to PEDs. Then again, Kenny Williams is not so quick to brag about signing Jose Canseco. I do think Frank was clean, though.

[Cujo]

Frank Thomas was clean, actually.

Sure he was.

Say what you will about the White Sox, but they seem to have run a pretty tight ship when it comes to PEDs. Then again, Kenny Williams is not so quick to brag about signing Jose Canseco. I do think Frank was clean, though.

As it stands now, I don't trust ANYONE who played before the MLB drug policy was implemented in 2005.

[Gothamite]

I have to admit, I find a morbid sort of amusement in watching a sport I love self destruct like this.

At this point I say either MLB has to REALLY commit to taking care of this problem or just legalize most of the stuff they're taking anyway. Enough of this half-a$$ed BS.

They are committed. To "really" commit right now will require breaking the union.

The problem is that I'm not willing to go without baseball for a year or two to do it. I'm okay with small steps, provided that there's an incremental change.

[cappital92]

The problem is that I'm not willing to go without baseball for a year or two to do it.

You may not, but if I'm working for MLB, I'd gladly have a year of no games if that meant that baseball regained some credibility. Now of course, given how bad MLB looked after '94, and the NHL with '04-'05, I highly doubt that baseball would look any better.

[oddball]

I don't give a rat's behind who tests positive. Why? Because how can you sit there and claim X,Y,Z players are guilty because they've been named and then there are what 102 players who are guilty that haven't been named? I mean really, why doesn't anyone implicate Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Pedro Martinez, Juan Pierre, Tim Wakefield, and Mariano Rivera? Most of the steroid convictions have been of speedsters and pitchers. What about Ricky Henderson? And oh yeah, I really want to know if Steve Finley is on that list. Until MLB names these players and then proceeds to give a year suspension not 50 games then 100 games, but a full year suspension to a player for first offense and then lieftime ban from the game for second offense, and then also anyone caught who's used steroids gets their careers wiped from the books and bust removed from the Hall of Fame if they are in there. Complete ban and wiping the career out of the records would do a lot to telling us who's legit from now on. Heck, if we wiped out Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Clemens from the record books, then that's saying something. This wimpy policy says nothing, and Manny being banned for 50 games is nothing. Another thing that they could do is not let the team get money from the contract and also make the team play a man short during the suspension for every guy caught. So if you had 5 guys suspended for the year because of steroids, you'd play with 20 men on the roster. Until someone gets serious with the penalties, there will always be disadvantages. And while we're at it, I saw on MLB network Darryl Strawberry talking and in his book he mentioned that players like Willie Mays took uppers, or whatever. Why aren't players from the 60's and 70's who used drugs as scrutinized as steroids. You say uppers aren't performance enhancing? Yes, they are. That was the reason they took them, to keep them energized in a long season. Let's look at some of these great players and scrutinize them as much as we're scrutinizing Manny. What? You don't want to believe that someone like Hank Aaron might have taken something to play the next day? That's one of the benefits of steroids, to help you heal faster, it's not really for strength as much as it's to help you heal. Oh yeah and what about teams like the Vancouver Canucks of 1994 or whatever year they lost to the Rangers in the Cup Finals that used a hyberbaric chamber to help heal faster. Why is using a drug to heal faster illegal and yet using a machine to do the same thing legal? People associate steroids with getting stronger and you do, but the real reason athletes especially pros use them is to help recover quickly. Again, until you name those other 102 players on the list that A-Rod's on, I'll look the other way as far as someone on steroids or not. If this policy was so strong and doing its job, why do we continue to see players suspended today? It doesn't work. It's kind of like the chewing tobacco ban in minor league baseball, so if that's true, then how in the heck are there so many tobacco users in the majors today? If baseball can't enforce a tobacco ban properly, then how do you really expect them to enforce any sort of drug policy?

[Gothamite]

They can't name them. A-Rod shouldn't have been named. Those tests were supposed to be confidential. It would be both immoral and potentially illegal to release the names.

I too want harsher penalties, but they can't go back to those tests.

Not to mention that revealing the names would implicate innocent men, players who refused to take the test knowing that their refusal would be recorded as a "fail" and help reach the 5% MLB needed to insitute a testing policy across the sport.