Concordia University Wisconsin

[udubs03]

First off, I am an infrequent poster here but I check the site on a daily basis. I know a lot of the guys here have a really good eye for design so I was hoping to get some honest feedback.

My friend and I recently graduated from Concordia University Wisconsin, a small college north of Milwaukee. We always felt that our athletic identity was lacking, and when Concordia changed its institutional identity last year, we felt it would be as good a time as any to change the athletic side of things. Long story short, my friend and I are currently working with the AD and coaches to come up with something new.

Our school nickname is the Falcons and we have been traditionally blue and white.

Here is our current mess of an 'identity'. These photos were taken all around campus, and as you can see, consistency is a huge issue:

We are still in the early stages of developing a new visual identity, but I thought I'd post them here to get some early feedback.

The first of our three new directions plays of the current CUW bird head. There is still a "CUW" hidden within the head, but it's not as overt as the current:

The second is an update of the marching bird, tweaked to look more falcon-like and a tad more aggressive while (hopefully) retaining some of the charm of the traditional 'animal marching in a sweater' logo:

Our third direction is to take CUW athletics somewhere new. This logo goes along with a lot of the current trends of sports logo design, but I still feel it's

fairly strong and could be a versatile identity:

Again, these logos definitely all need their fair share of tweaking and refinement, but I would really appreciate your thoughts...and sorry for the long post.

[chickenfish13]

Nice work. I'd say use the flying bird with the middle ones wordmark, and then use the marching bird as a secondary.

For the flying bird, I think it looks pretty good, but im not entirely sure what a falcon looks like in flight, so there may be something. Maybe try and simplify the eye a bit, and change the highlights on its face.

Sorry for the vague feedback, and nice work so far.

[mcrosby]

I really like the marching falcon and its wordmark. I would use that and try to work up a CU-W monogram. Something that can be identified easily. With UW-Milwaukee adopting a new sweatered mascot logo, and UW-Madison having the classic bucky, this is something I would love to see schools in Wisconsin really take hold of. I realize CU-W isn't a UW-system school, but I still like it. And it's very collegiate in my opinion. I like.

The falcon head logo looks more like an eagle than anything, and is fairly generic.

The flying falcon, while anatomically correct, looks a bit chubby. This is a problem I have with all flying bird logos, Birds have a weird torso, their legs connect to their armpits (maybe an exaggeration but you get my drift). The large belly on the flying logo and the grey is causing a bit of a pigeon look.

[rams80]

Needs more nun habits.

I really like the first wordmark and the marching falcon as starting points. Perhaps the sweater logo could use some tweaking to mention the Wisconsin aspect of the identity.

I would also suggest a possible revamp of the school colors; blue and white is rather popular among schools in the Concordia University System, and perhaps a change in colors would serve to separate Mequon CUdub.

[gordie_delini]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but this is not worthy of a collegiate athletic identity. The execution is terrible. I admire the effort and the reasonings behind the rebrand, but this is a situation where, if you're really doing this for and with the school, you need to hire a professional designer or agency. Where I work (Old Hat Creative, Norman OK) has been looking for a collegiate outfit to do a rebranding - I would highly recommend you contact us so we can help.

[rams80]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but this is not worthy of a collegiate athletic identity. The execution is terrible. I admire the effort and the reasonings behind the rebrand, but this is a situation where, if you're really doing this for and with the school, you need to hire a professional designer or agency. Where I work (Old Hat Creative, Norman OK) has been looking for a collegiate outfit to do a rebranding - I would highly recommend you contact us so we can help.

Not all Division III schools, including those run by the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, can afford to put your design agency on retainer.

[Buster]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but this is not worthy of a collegiate athletic identity. The execution is terrible. I admire the effort and the reasonings behind the rebrand, but this is a situation where, if you're really doing this for and with the school, you need to hire a professional designer or agency. Where I work (Old Hat Creative, Norman OK) has been looking for a collegiate outfit to do a rebranding - I would highly recommend you contact us so we can help.

Looks like a big upgrade though!

For a small school no one has ever heard of...it suffices.

[udubs03]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but this is not worthy of a collegiate athletic identity. The execution is terrible. I admire the effort and the reasonings behind the rebrand, but this is a situation where, if you're really doing this for and with the school, you need to hire a professional designer or agency. Where I work (Old Hat Creative, Norman OK) has been looking for a collegiate outfit to do a rebranding - I would highly recommend you contact us so we can help.

What about the execution is terrible? Again, these are more or less rough sketches to get a direction to move forward in. Color choice has yet to be made and implemented and the lockups are entirely not what we plan on using, merely a way of presenting to the AD to give him and idea of what we can do. I respect your opinion and I admire a lot of your work (particularly your soccer stuff), but your comments seem to be more or less a thinly veiled solicitation rather than constructive criticism.

[gordie_delini]

Well for starters your anatomy is off by quite a bit. I'd definitely look at reference photos of falcons, then sketch some. Check out Fraser Davidson's animal tutorial thread as an example of how to accomplish this. Secondly, the renders are just flat, uninspiring, and too cartoon-ish. I stand by what I said that a university athletics department should hire a professional design firm, whether it's ours or not. I do admire your initiative and the fact that 1) you saw the disorganization in the identity system and 2) you are working with the AD to remedy and improve that. But it seems to me like your graphic training is minimal, which is no fault of yours, and I will say it's still better than what is there currently. PM me and I can show you some stuff I've done recently at Old Hat that may be of help to you.

[9erssteve]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but this is not worthy of a collegiate athletic identity. The execution is terrible. I admire the effort and the reasonings behind the rebrand, but this is a situation where, if you're really doing this for and with the school, you need to hire a professional designer or agency. Where I work (Old Hat Creative, Norman OK) has been looking for a collegiate outfit to do a rebranding - I would highly recommend you contact us so we can help.

What about the execution is terrible? Again, these are more or less rough sketches to get a direction to move forward in. Color choice has yet to be made and implemented and the lockups are entirely not what we plan on using, merely a way of presenting to the AD to give him and idea of what we can do. I respect your opinion and I admire a lot of your work (particularly your soccer stuff), but your comments seem to be more or less a thinly veiled solicitation rather than constructive criticism.

Ok this might come across slightly harsh and it's genuinely not intended as an insult, but if you have to ask what wrong with the execution of the ideas you've presented then I'm sorry you're probably not the right person to be doing the job.

Yes they're rough ideas, but on version one there seems to have been little to no actual research into what falcons look like before you went to the computer, the line weights are all off, one of the feathers has a flat end, the line separating the top of the beak from the lower part is so thin it's almost worthless now and will disappear when the logo is reduced even slightly... I could go on with this version and then proceed to versions two and three but I'd feel like I was just ripping for the sake of it and I dont want to do that.

I think what you're doing is admirable and all and the school desperately needs to do it but I'm not sure you have the skills to pull this off to a high enough standard to make it a worthwhile exercise. I dont meant that as an insult, hell I've got a graphic design degree and years of experience and I'm not sure I'd be up to designing a college identity, it'd be a real challenge it's not something everyone can do, that's why there are professionals.

With regards the work being rough sketches, I'm sorry rough sketches should be just that, sketches, where's the paper stage of the idea where was the research? You claim these roughs are just to show the AD what you can do, well I hate to say it you haven't painted yourself in a very good light, neither of the "factual" renditions of a Falcon actually look much like falcons.

Did you actually sketch anything or just jump straight onto a computer? I'll be honest looking at the shapes involved I'm pretty sure I know the answer. The problem with going straight to the computer is it can be incredibly restrictive even to those who are highly artistic, and as much as software is great it cant do it for you. It still cracks me up to hear people say I wanna design logos but cant draw, well I'm sorry if you cant draw a computer isn't going to fix that, it takes the same eye, appreciation for shape and form that it does to draw on paper to produce quality work on a computer. Another reason to avoid hitting a computer too soon is you end up spending time "tweaking and adjusting" something which to be honest might not be a very strong idea. If you throw it down on paper and there's something there you can redraw it, if it sucks you sketch something else, you can throw down more sketches on paper than on the computer. Another problem with going to the computer to soon is it makes the client think that you're further on in the process than is actually the case and it often means they settle for something which is not the best outcome.

I'll say this much of three ideas you've presented number two looks the best, but whether that would make it right choice of the three styles I couldn't say because I can see issues that a logo that relies on such a detailed character logo would present over the other styles of logo you've presented. But at even this rough stage I'd be worried that the final version of either of the other versions might not be strong enough so if I was the AD I'd probably end up heading down route 2 and like I said it may not actually be the best route to go down.

I can see how gordies comment could have been read as a thinly veiled advert for his own services, he may have been better served by just advising you seek professional help and leave you to ask if there was anyone he recommends rather than throwing his hat in the ring from the very first post. But I dont think that really changes what is to be honest is very sound advice, that a project of this magnitude, if to be worthwhile and achieve it's objectives would be better off in the hands of a qualified, experienced designer or agency, whomever they may be, and in a day and age where even certain high schools are bringing in agencies to rework their sports departments identities it doesn't have to be the horrendous expensive ordeal people think it is.

9erssteve

[Brave-Bird 08]

I would work with the 3rd concept you posted. Make variations of that. Good work overall on the scripts, and logos are all good starts, though they could use some refining.

[udubs03]

Let me clarify a little of our process:

?Yes, we have been looking at reference images, studying anatomical structure and whatnot?and I can agree that some bits are off.

?Yes, we have done a lot of actual pencil-to-paper sketch work rather than jumping right into illustrator.

?The above vector graphics are basically a quick translation of our sketches into a more polished medium. Yes, some of the curves are still a bit wonky, the keylines aren't good (basically offset paths), and the introduction of highlights and shadows leave the images flat at this point. I'll be the first to admit that.

I probably should have waited till we were a bit further in or had these a bit more polished to present them here.

Sorry if this comes off as overly defensive, but I would really like to try and improve these to the point that some of you might consider them worthy of collegiate athletics.

9erssteve, the critiques you started listing on version one of our logo are actually exactly the type of thing I'm looking for. I was less offended by that than by your assertions about our process and skill set. Maybe I don't have 'professional-grade' skills at this point (which I think is a tad unfair to judge based on three self-professed rough pieces), but should I quit and hand it over to said professional?

I'd much rather work hard to get myself to that level than throw my hands up and say 'uncle'.

[9erssteve]

Let me clarify a little of our process:

?Yes, we have been looking at reference images, studying anatomical structure and whatnot?and I can agree that some bits are off.

?Yes, we have done a lot of actual pencil-to-paper sketch work rather than jumping right into illustrator.

?The above vector graphics are basically a quick translation of our sketches into a more polished medium. Yes, some of the curves are still a bit wonky, the keylines aren't good (basically offset paths), and the introduction of highlights and shadows leave the images flat at this point. I'll be the first to admit that.

I probably should have waited till we were a bit further in or had these a bit more polished to present them here.

Sorry if this comes off as overly defensive, but I would really like to try and improve these to the point that some of you might consider them worthy of collegiate athletics.

9erssteve, the critiques you started listing on version one of our logo are actually exactly the type of thing I'm looking for. I was less offended by that than by your assertions about our process and skill set. Maybe I don't have 'professional-grade' skills at this point (which I think is a tad unfair to judge based on three self-professed rough pieces), but should I quit and hand it over to said professional?

I'd much rather work hard to get myself to that level than throw my hands up and say 'uncle'.

No it doesn't come over as overly defensive at all, I asked the questions so it's great you've taken the time to answer them. The point I was making was that while certain members on here such as Davidson can go straight to the computer and do the whole process there it's not something that everyone can do and IMO it's the hardest way to work unless you are in complete control of the software and are incredibly good at drawing to begin with, so it's good to know you're approaching it in what I would consider a more manageable way.

However, it's not just that things are a little wonky anatomically or that because you've used offset paths rather than drawing your own that things looks off, they look off because they are off and the truth of the matter is a professional would never have presented these images to a client. Not even as "roughs". The fact you've said the Illustrator versions are more polished than the sketches also concerns me. The truth is those images did you no favors at all, and that's the kindest way I can put it. They dont need polished, with the possible exception of number two, imo they need started over from scratch. With version one it's not as simple as thicken this line or reduce this and it'll suddenly look like a falcon, the truth is it just doesn't look like a falcon and adjusting what you have now wont change that.

I can only speak from personal experience but I wouldn't go near illustrator until I'm happy I can sketch the logo I want by hand to an almost finished level, I'll draw, trace, adjust, trace again and continue to do that until I'm happy with the sketch. Why? Cos it's faster and simpler than adjusting in Illustrator, you can try something in seconds on paper and if it doesn't work you just draw over the top it's a more natural process you can alter things faster and you dont get so emotionally tied into an idea. So if it doesn't work you can toss it and move on much easier. People seem to become slaves to illustrator and think because it's on a screen somehow it will work if they just keep pushing it. It's just not true. Some ideas just dont work, hell sometimes it's just that version. If you stop and draw the exact same thing again you get it right second time, but like I said once it's drawn on a screen people cant seem to walk away and I fear you're in danger of doing that here. You seem to think all you need to do is adjust what you have and it'll be fine when in all honesty especially in respect to version one I think what's needed is a fresh start.

Now I'm not saying my way is the right way or the only way it's not and it would be incredibly arrogant of me to think that, but Im describing it to you because it was advice a tutor I had a lot of respect for gave me early on and I think it will help you immensely. Dont go to the computer until you are ready to do the final piece, even if you're presenting more than one idea work them all up til they are as close to ready as you can get them then take them onto the computer. Once you've got more projects under your belt then fine jump on the computer sooner and one day you might be like Davidson and be knocking them out the park straight from your mac or pc, but to begin with I'd start on paper and be prepared to throw away everything but the very best you've got.

You say it's harsh to judge your work on three admittedly rough pieces, well yeah it may be, but when that's all I've seen of your work I'll ask what else do I have to go on? For all I know that's all the AD from the college had to go on too. And when every piece presented was at a stage I wouldn't have shown anyone let alone the client what other advice can I give than the advice I did? Which was that I think you went to the computer far to early, you either didn't do enough research, or didn't reference it enough and that you showed the AD the work long before it was ready to be seen. If what you'd intended to do was say we could go down certain routes you would have been better served showing him mood boards with existing logos in the same styles (side view of head, caricature mascots and birds in full flight) to see which route he wanted to take and then start working up your ideas from there.

You say you want to elevate your skills to a professional level, and that's a great but thats the thing it's not just about the execution of the logo it's about understanding all the steps in the process that sets the professionals apart. It's knowing what to show and sometimes more importantly what not to show the client, it's about being able to illustrate the designs to a high enough level, it's about knowing enough about print production and all the other mediums the logo will be used in to ensure it works well across them all, and it means understanding what types of files need to be created as artwork for the finished job so it works when it goes to print or web or tv companies. And the truth is very rarely is all that done by one person anymore, more often than not it's a team of people and that is what an agency will offer that you cannot, years of knowledge and experience and an expert across every stage of the project.

I'm NOT for one second saying give up working on your design skills, I WOULD NEVER say that to ANYONE WHO'S KEEN TO LEARN ANYTHING, please let me be perfectly clear about that, but at the same time I stand by my advice to step aside and let someone with more experience take on this project for the sake of the school. To get your skills to a professional level takes years of training, that's why they call it a profession, and even then trust me they dont let day one graduates work on projects of this magnitude within agencies! Sure in some the junior might get a say they might get to have a hand in it but they will not take the lead on a project like this. Which is why I said I'd find a project like this daunting despite four years of college and nearly 10 years experience of one kind or another in the design and print trade. Unless the college has that kind of time to wait I think they'd be better served by going with someone more experienced.

Let me put it this way I have ALWAYS wanted to learn to play the guitar, I can pick my way through most open chords, barre chords mostly (except B that bugger gets me every time) and while one day I'd LOVE to be able to play well enough to get up in front of people and play I know where my level is and I'm not there yet, not even open mic night at a local bar! Right now what you're trying to do would be the equivalent of me pitching up at a Metallica gig walking onto the stage and expecting to nail the show, as much as I'd love it to happen its not gonna in a million years. I'm years away from being close, truthfully I'm years away from playing one song... if I spent all those years just learning that one song!

I dont think you fully grasp just how big a project you're trying to take on here and what exactly is at stake, and like I said while I think it's great you want to help your school and kudos to you for bringing to their attention the state their identity is in creating a concept is one thing but creating something like this for real is something else entirely.

9erssteve

[udubs03]

9erssteve, thanks for your response. We're definitely going to take what's been said here, go back to the drawing table and keep churning out sketches. At this point, I'm too hard-headed to throw in the towel, though.

Maybe our first round of designs suck and are beyond help, maybe there are bits and pieces that we can use to build upon, maybe we're spinning our wheels and getting nowhere. We knew what we were getting into when we first approached this project and our timetable will accommodate that. Admittedly, we rushed the first few steps and obviously won't be making any presentations anytime soon. We'll just treat this as a learning experience and move ahead.

The heart of the project is this: Concordia is a relatively small D3 school, our current logo was drawn up by an ex-football coach, and my friend and I feel like we can do the University better. We've gotten the AD and the coaches on board, so we are going to make this happen?one way or another.

Speaking for myself, I don't have years of experience but I'm not just some green kid who bought Illustrator and designs 'logos' for his uncle's business either. I don't think I'm going to convince you of any of this?but I also don't really think I need to.

[9erssteve]

9erssteve, thanks for your response. We're definitely going to take what's been said here, go back to the drawing table and keep churning out sketches. At this point, I'm too hard-headed to throw in the towel, though.

Maybe our first round of designs suck and are beyond help, maybe there are bits and pieces that we can use to build upon, maybe we're spinning our wheels and getting nowhere. We knew what we were getting into when we first approached this project and our timetable will accommodate that. Admittedly, we rushed the first few steps and obviously won't be making any presentations anytime soon. We'll just treat this as a learning experience and move ahead.

The heart of the project is this: Concordia is a relatively small D3 school, our current logo was drawn up by an ex-football coach, and my friend and I feel like we can do the University better. We've gotten the AD and the coaches on board, so we are going to make this happen?one way or another.

Speaking for myself, I don't have years of experience but I'm not just some green kid who bought Illustrator and designs 'logos' for his uncle's business either. I don't think I'm going to convince you of any of this?but I also don't really think I need to.

You're right you dont have to convince me of anything, I'm just another designer with an opinion. You dont even have to listen to it if you dont want to, but I appreciate that you're taking some of it on board and I'm glad you think it will help.

Doing better by the university isn't really the tricky part, right now that could be achieved by simply taking the best version of their current logo, cleaning it up, settling on specific pantone colours, choosing a set of typefaces for the text on press releases posters etc and making sure those elements are stuck to by everyone. By simply doing that they'd at least have clean cohesive and consistent identity which is something they dont have at present. Making the university's identity the best in their division, or better yet creating an identity which would not look out of place a division or even two higher and really raising their game is the tricky part and that's what you need to be aiming to do, it's what an agency would do. And there in lies the rub because there are a lot of really strong identity packages in the higher divisions, designed by people with years of experience in the field.

Actually it might be an idea to get your hands on copies of all the identities from the other schools in the division and the division above and use them as a yardstick to compare your ideas to select the top few and push your ideas until they're better than them. rebranding shouldn't just be about making a logo that's better than the existing one it should be about raising the stock of the school compared with other schools identities.

Like I said I think it's great that you want to help out your university, and the fact that you're determined to see it through is admirable, I wish you every success with this but still think the project is bigger than you realise. I look forward to seeing the next stages in the process, and as my tutors at college always said: research, research research, and when you done all that it's time to start your research. It was always the dullest part of the project but it was ALWAYS worthwhile.

9erssteve

[illwauk]

The CU-W head has always been one of my favorite D3 logos, I hope you're not planning to get rid of it altogether. Maybe only keep it on the football helmets since an old football coach designed it and the helmet was clearly what it was designed for.