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Ebay Ethics?


nwtrailtrekker

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Hello to you all,

it's been a long time since i've posted, but i feel like you're just the group to tackle this issue.

Okay, the other day i purchased an item off of ebay, it was a 2010 USA Hockey jersey, pretty much exactly like the one below, except its a blank, not a Parise jersey.

DSCN2204.JPG

Now, YES, it is a fake. YES, i know its a fake.

Here is a comparison photo of the real thing..

usad.png

The USA emblem is definitely off, and the stripes on the bottom have different widths. Oh well.

The jersey arrived today and I love it. The material is great (not like Chinese NHL ripoffs), there's no number/name on it to make it look terrible, and its an overall fantastic jersey for $41 dollars after shipping.

So here is my dilemma.

A day after purchasing the jersey, I received this email..

notice.png

Now, I already paid for the item through ebay with paypal. I've received the item, and frankly I knew what i was getting, and am very satisfied with my purchase.

So, is it wrong for me to pursue this, and try to get my money back? I mean, its not like I would be required to send the jersey back. I would just ultimately be getting the jersey for free.

Is this acceptable practice?

Is it still right to give counterfeit sellers what they've got coming?

Looking forward to any and all opinions.

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First - you knowingly bought a fake jersey. IMO, that makes you trash.

Second - you knowingly posted about buying a fake jersey on a board frequented by pro designers who are being robbed whenever someone buys a fake. That makes you dumb trash.

Third - you even have to ask the question about getting your illegally reproduced fake jersey for "free". That makes you cheap, immoral trash.

Fourth... well, you don't want to know.

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Original poster: Agree you shouldn't pursue a refund. Oh, and heh heh, you said eBay and ethics, heh heh. :D (eBay is the poster child for caveat emptor.)

BBTV...while I see your points, and mostly agree in principle, here are a few items on which I'd be interested in members' opinions:

- Suppose someone makes a homemade that's close enough to authentic to fool casual observers? Is that the same as buying a fake jersey?

- The leagues themselves make 'fake' jerseys (replicas) that only vaguely resemble authentics. Is that on a par with knockoffs or does the source make it okay?

- What's the answer for people who don't want a replica, don't want to (or can't) spend $250+ for an authentic and are happy with a knockoff?

- How do the knockoff websites continue operating? I suspect it's like playing Whack-a-Mole for the leagues but if anybody has any facts or insight that would be welcome.

Just doesn't seem as black and white as you make it out to be.

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Original poster: Agree you shouldn't pursue a refund. Oh, and heh heh, you said eBay and ethics, heh heh. :D (eBay is the poster child for caveat emptor.)

BBTV...while I see your points, and mostly agree in principle, here are a few items on which I'd be interested in members' opinions:

- Suppose someone makes a homemade that's close enough to authentic to fool casual observers? Is that the same as buying a fake jersey?

- The leagues themselves make 'fake' jerseys (replicas) that only vaguely resemble authentics. Is that on a par with knockoffs or does the source make it okay?

- What's the answer for people who don't want a replica, don't want to (or can't) spend $250+ for an authentic and are happy with a knockoff?

- How do the knockoff websites continue operating? I suspect it's like playing Whack-a-Mole for the leagues but if anybody has any facts or insight that would be welcome.

Just doesn't seem as black and white as you make it out to be.

They aren't fake but they are "unlicensed". Regardless of if its a company in China or some dude in Minnesota, they are still unlicensed. Sure you're only hurting a huge company that sells the jersey and a huge league that makes enough money, but its still copyright infringement the second you make money off someone else's work, regardless who you are.

Than answer for the people who don't want a replica and can't spend money for an authentic is they are still getting a crappy jersey (replica vs. unlicensed) and they are still aiding in copyright infringement.

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First thing about the USA 2010 throwback replica jerseys, they are not like the ones the players are wearing.

They are Navy not Royal, they are a Swift style not a traditional jersey fit and the swoosh is in blue area not the white.

So, the Parise jersey you show is what the retail versions look like. I think that's a knock-off )albeit a very good one) because

it has a Team Canada hangtag on the sleeve, not a USA Hockey. In a nutshell, Nike did not sell an exact takedown of the throwback jersey.

Why? I have no idea, it's actually really dumb on their part.

Seeing a picture of what you actually received would help.

Maybe you did not get a "knockoff"

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Yep. Black and white. THe only thing BBTV said wrong was "fake" as opposed to "unlicensed".

I am not sure what the original poster meant by knowing it was "fake". If he meant licensed replica, then he's not "trash", but now knowing that it is unlicensed certainly should pursue the refund and make it right (at least from his perspective). If he meant "unlicensed", then he's contributing to the counterfeit...and since it appears to be counterfeit, poser47, with any moral reasoning, the counterfeiter cannot be "screwed" out of the money he should never have made in the first place.

I am not a big fan of Nike, but justifying one copyright infringement is a slippery slope.

I don't understand why so many people that would never steal a candy bar from a store would purchase these jerseys and illegally pirate hundreds of albums. Must be about the chance to get caught I guess.

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eBay is without question the most horrific company I have ever worked with.

Someone stole my identity a few years ago and opened a fraudulent account on eBay this year...which screwed up my account. eBay's constant answer to the problem? Log in under the "bad" account and pay the bill.

They are terrible people. Scum of the Earth. :mad:

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Also, if a person makes a jersey form themself I believe that is not infringement.

I am not certain. They would not be making money off of it, so you may be right on that one.

There was a court case (in the 1990's, I think), where the IOC lost a copyright infringement suit on this idea, a variation of the Fair Use Doctrine. You can use a copyrighted logo so long as you make no money off of it and you aren't damaging the image of the entity.

And this tangent to the original discussion sort of questions the legitimacy of the whole Do-It-Yourself Movement. I've always felt that the only way I'd go the DIY route was if there was no way to get what I wanted. As in the product isn't made anymore or was never made or is impossible to acquire. I have two DIY MLB jerseys that I am very pleased with and I wear proudly. They are also one-of-a-kinds that have never or will never be available.

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Also, if a person makes a jersey form themself I believe that is not infringement.

I am not certain. They would not be making money off of it, so you may be right on that one.

There was a court case (in the 1990's, I think), where the IOC lost a copyright infringement suit on this idea, a variation of the Fair Use Doctrine. You can use a copyrighted logo so long as you make no money off of it and you aren't damaging the image of the entity.

And this tangent to the original discussion sort of questions the legitimacy of the whole Do-It-Yourself Movement. I've always felt that the only way I'd go the DIY route was if there was no way to get what I wanted. As in the product isn't made anymore or was never made or is impossible to acquire. I have two DIY MLB jerseys that I am very pleased with and I wear proudly. They are also one-of-a-kinds that have never or will never be available.

Personally I'm perfectly fine with that. Heck even if you make something that you CAN get currently for yourself, who cares? Its when you start to make money off it I think that's out of bounds. If its something I did personally I might be offended or peeved that you didn't support me but I fully understand that there is nothing I can do and you're not doing anything but trying to save some money. You're not hurting me by trying to undercut me or anything.

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Yep. Black and white. THe only thing BBTV said wrong was "fake" as opposed to "unlicensed".

I am not sure what the original poster meant by knowing it was "fake". If he meant licensed replica, then he's not "trash", but now knowing that it is unlicensed certainly should pursue the refund and make it right (at least from his perspective). If he meant "unlicensed", then he's contributing to the counterfeit...and since it appears to be counterfeit, poser47, with any moral reasoning, the counterfeiter cannot be "screwed" out of the money he should never have made in the first place.

I am not a big fan of Nike, but justifying one copyright infringement is a slippery slope.

I don't understand why so many people that would never steal a candy bar from a store would purchase these jerseys and illegally pirate hundreds of albums. Must be about the chance to get caught I guess.

Judging from your perch aboard a high horse (which is no doubt standing in a glass house with a bag of rocks hanging from the pommel), I assume you never violate any rule or law in any way? That's hyperbole of course and I mean no offense but we all take our liberties in one way or another, and we all want to justify our own while questioning the other guy.

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I don't understand why so many people that would never steal a candy bar from a store would purchase these jerseys and illegally pirate hundreds of albums. Must be about the chance to get caught I guess.

Judging from your perch aboard a high horse (which is no doubt standing in a glass house with a bag of rocks hanging from the pommel), I assume you never violate any rule or law in any way? That's hyperbole of course and I mean no offense but we all take our liberties in one way or another, and we all want to justify our own while questioning the other guy.

No, I think his comparison is apt. Sure, we all bend rules. But we tend to bend a whole class of rules - speeding, for example. If we're comfortable speeding, we do it on the highway and on the street. I don't know many people who would gladly speed in one situation but not the other.

Similarly, theft is theft. He's wondering why some people are comfortable stealing intellectual property but not lifting a candy bar from the corner store. If one is wrong, so is the other.

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Getting back to that jersey, do they produce blank knockoffs? I'd never seen one before, but that's a scary thought.

And like someone else said, you picked a bad comparison picture since that version of the jersey is from a few years ago and not the style they wore in the 2010 Olympics.

Anyway, I think it's pretty stupid that you'd still want to get your money back after knowingly and gladly buying a fake. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

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after reading some of these comments, i'm not so sure the jersey is actually a "fake".

The nike tag is on the top inside, and it looks right. the jersey material is great. ebod39 said the replicas dont look exactly like the authentic on-ice jerseys, and frankly, whether it be for $130 or $40, each jersey of this type i've seen online looks exactly like the one i have.

also. my jersey wasn't shipped from china, it was shipped from Pennsylvania.

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First - you knowingly bought a fake jersey. IMO, that makes you trash.

Second - you knowingly posted about buying a fake jersey on a board frequented by pro designers who are being robbed whenever someone buys a fake. That makes you dumb trash.

Third - you even have to ask the question about getting your illegally reproduced fake jersey for "free". That makes you cheap, immoral trash.

Fourth... well, you don't want to know.

Why some people on here get their underroos in such a bunch over low-cost alternatives is beyond me. Counterfeiting only happens when the market has out-priced itself. Everyone knows these counterfeit items are of less quality (which keeps me away,) but they are of an acceptable price to most people. Very few people look at a $300 jersey and think they are getting everything they paid for, and most of them would reside on this board.

It doesn't excuse them individually, but the act collectively, through my free-market eyes, does. Just as it was with Prohibition, the masses talk. If the masses are buying these fakes (which trust me, go to any NFL game and you see more 'fakes' then real 'authentics' now) then any smart business should counter by lowering prices.

What does the NFL do to combat this? Nothing. If anything they raise prices under the guise of a new fabric technology nobody cares about.

Its bad business. Plain and simple.

People forget the market is a living thing, that cannot be controlled but only reacted to. Right or wrong, people see these as low-cost options. The consumer can not and should not be responsible for licensing issues. Let the courts handle this matter and come back down off your judging perch. I guarantee you've bended the rules of the market before, and nobody was their patting themselves on the back calling you 'immoral trash' in public. And if they did, they were wrong.

Truly, whats more classless?

I find the whole thing silly.

And no, I don't buy them. They look bad. I'm just saying. I think its weak that people try to make character assumptions based on it...thats all. Its a jersey, most likely manufactured in the same plant, using scraps, and sold with a wink and a nod. Nothing to make a spreadsheet about how 'Trash' a person is.

Sorry, i just found your post extremely obnoxious. You've been a great poster here forever, but I had to say something.

Back to my non-posting cave I go!

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The consumer can not and should not be responsible for licensing issues.

Quite incorrect as a rule - purchasing stolen items is itself a crime.

Is the theft of intellectual property stealing? If it is, then purchasing a fake isn't some noble market force, it's stealing.

And since you brought up Prohibition, I'm not aware that bootleggers were putting Jack Daniel's labels on their bottles, but perhaps you know better than I.

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A little over the top, perhaps. Decided to take out some alcohol-fueled frustration on idiots on the interweb. It was either that or kick small dogs. I feel comfortable with my decision. But yeah... prob a bit harsh.

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First thing about the USA 2010 throwback replica jerseys, they are not like the ones the players are wearing.

They are Navy not Royal, they are a Swift style not a traditional jersey fit and the swoosh is in blue area not the white.

So, the Parise jersey you show is what the retail versions look like. I think that's a knock-off )albeit a very good one) because

it has a Team Canada hangtag on the sleeve, not a USA Hockey. In a nutshell, Nike did not sell an exact takedown of the throwback jersey.

Why? I have no idea, it's actually really dumb on their part.

Seeing a picture of what you actually received would help.

Maybe you did not get a "knockoff"

now that you mention USA Hockey, take a look at this mess they're selling on THEIR WEBSITE.

http://www.shopusahockey.com/store/p/4043-Zack-Parise-Signed-2010-USA-Hockey-Jersey.html

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