Activists call for 2011 MLB All-Star game to be moved

[OMMF]

you have no proof of this

rough guesstimate pulled out of thin air

*facepalm*

Objection overruled. I would like to hear what this witness has to say.

[HedleyLamarr]

It's this kind of crap that ticks me off. You just looking for reason to oppose it instead of being realistic. Not every cop is a "dirty cop".

Enough of them are, especially in Arizona, that it's a very good reason to oppose it.

Have you actually lived in Arizona, or spent enough time there, to give an accurate description of their policemen's behavior? The extent of my police knowledge of Arizona is that one sheriff that has his jail painted pink. (Which I can support....as a criminal, you waive your right in determining what your wardrobe and home decor colors are. Don't like it? Don't commit a crime. Fairly simple logic.)

Another thing you sad-sacks don't think about is that these same cops are also willing to take a bullet for you, should that opportunity ever arise.

Some folks just love to let paranoia get the best of them.

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

Some folks just love to let paranoia get the best of them.

Which in turn forces stupid southwestern state legislatures to pass stupid laws. Zing!

[NJTank]

So we are supposed to award illegals who break our immigration laws, and may at the same time smuggle in drugs to pay the coyote who brings them in. These illegals who get less than minimum wage and dont pay taxes yet get free healthcare, free education and every other service the government wishes. Things like housing, welfare and food stamps.

All while unemployment is near 10%. Which is just the tip of the iceberg as they don't include those who have given up looking for work and the underemployed.

At the same time there is a long line of immigrants who want to live here just as much and perhaps even more than the illegals who many who once here refuse to salute our flag and are open about their hatrid for the USA. These legal immigrants wait on line do everything right and watch people cut in front of them and get everything they desire yet these legal immigrants come here and they pay taxes and do everything right yet you want to reward the illegals.

I don't get it. I just don't get it.

We have a President who is refusing to secure the border, and just wants to have quick amnesty so he can ge them voting rights because he knows that nobody in their right friggen mind will vote for his ass again.

[Epiphanic]

You know what I don't get? How opposing the Arizona law means that one is unequivocally pro-illigal immigration. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I would say that 100% of this board wants illegal immigration to stop. However, the law in question is not the way to do it. We need a better solution.

[The_Admiral]

Yeah, Tank, you're going too macro on this one. Obviously we need sweeping reform of our immigration policy. Unfortunately, that's probably going to have to include an amnesty program because the scope of this is far too wide to just go around deporting everyone who didn't navigate every inch of red tape. It's not practical. This isn't about that. This is about the law of unintended consequences, and how Arizona punching above its legislative weight class is going to lead to a lot of citizens being mistreated by citizens who don't know better. I get that you're angry about that other stuff. People who see the obvious ills in this aren't, say, pro-drug trafficking or something. It's just too easy to see police egregiously mistreating civilians (though police are civilians, despite how they comport themselves lately) as a result of this, and as some kind of Republican, I feel the government should leave law-abiding folks the hell alone. To this end, I have no problem with people putting the squeeze on Arizona until they have a change of heart. Baseball, with a large Spanish-speaking workforce and fanbase, needs to send a message here that it won't stand for mistreatment of them.

[Gothamite]

So we are supposed to award illegals who break our immigration laws....

Not really at issue here.

The issue in Arizona's law is whether people of a certain ethnicity can be treated like illegal immigrants by the police unless they can produce citizenship papers on the spot.

"Your papers, please" is anathema to the American experiment. Shame on Arizona for attempting to grant it any legitimacy.

[NJTank]

It says in the law they can not be stopped or questioned unless it is another police action. So if they are speeding its no different then license and registration. Its no different than showing ID at the airport. Arizona is only enforcing existing federal laws.

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

It says in the law they can not be stopped or questioned unless it is another police action. So if they are speeding its no different then license and registration. Its no different than showing ID at the airport. Arizona is only enforcing existing federal laws.

Police actions like jaywalking, broken tail light, "suspicious activity"...you name it. Cops have detained people without real cause, minorities especially, for years. You, Tank of all people, put that much faith in government that they'll do it right? Or does a few hundred legal Hispanic citizens being asked to proof their citizenship just not matter to you?

[GMac]

It says in the law they can not be stopped or questioned unless it is another police action. So if they are speeding its no different then license and registration. Its no different than showing ID at the airport. Arizona is only enforcing existing federal laws.

Police actions like jaywalking, broken tail light, "suspicious activity"...you name it. Cops have detained people without real cause, minorities especially, for years. You, Tank of all people, put that much faith in government that they'll do it right? Or does a few hundred legal Hispanic citizens being asked to proof their citizenship just not matter to you?

Exactly Police Actions are very fluid... A few years ago I got pulled over by some Alberta Sherrifs in Boyle, AB and it was at the end of the month and was quota time... so instead of getting warnings on a broken tail light and a licence plate cover (which is illegal in alberta but not saskatchewan where I live an my truck is licensed) I got tickets for both even when they had me remove said cover on the side of the busy highway... when most officers that i know said I should have fought that cuz it was excessive... but honestly I didnt feel like driving 24 hours round trip to fight about 200 in tickets and something tells me they knew that

While the law is black and white... the people that enforce said black and white law get to use their discretion and thats always shades of grey

[1990hornet]

If you have such little faith in the police to do their job correctly, why do you expect them to protect you and your family? Seems a little hypocritical of you.

[Gothamite]

You're trying to make an emotional argument, which really oughtn't be your strongest card. It is possible to trust and respect the police without wanting to expand their power.

Speaking for my own town, I have a lot of respect for New York City cops, but they offer a pretty compelling argument for why this is a bad law.

NYC cops have a procedure they call "stop and frisk," where they detain and search citizens. Those citizens are essentially chosen based on an officer's hunch. "Furtive movements" is the most often-cited reason for stopping someone.

In 2009, the police conducted 575,000 stops. Those stops resulted in 34,000 arrests. Setting aside the racial aspect of those selected for the stops (and there is a racial aspect), and presuming for the moment that every single arrest was a legitimate one, that means the cops stopped half a million people, subjected those people to a search, and nabbed a bad guy just under 6% of the time.

Or, put another way, 94% of the people who were stopped weren't guilty of anything. That's a terrible record, from a very good police force. Why do we think the various Arizona police agencies will fare any better?

[1990hornet]

Let's look at the population difference between NYC and Phoenix.

Phoenix = 1,601,587

NYC = 8,363,710

That's a hell of a lot more people to protect and serve. So, basically, the population could have an effect. After all NYC is the second most populated city in North America (not far behind Mexico City). All you're doing is desperately looking for a reason to oppose. In this case it's the cops fault, in another it's the legislation's fault. Why don't we just let them waltz right in, sure let's give the illegal immigrants the right to vote and all the benefits of US citizens and legal residents. Would you like that? Or would you like to stop grasping at straws and get rid a of problem in illegal immigration? There is no invasion of privacy by asking for ID. If you have a problem with a cop you should be complaining about him and not generalizing.

[Gothamite]

I'm sorry, I was wrong. I guess the emotional argument is your strongest card. It's better than your hysterical strawmen, or your many fallacies, but that still doesn't make it a substantive argument.

Asking for ID is an invasion of privacy. Police are not allowed to do it unless that have specific cause. Arizona has just extended that specific cause to the color of a person's skin.

And I'm sorry, but the only people "grasping at straws" are those who drafted and passed this insane law. Let the cops do real police work, rather than asking innocent people for their papers.

[1990hornet]

I'm sorry, I was wrong. I guess the emotional argument is your strongest card. It's better than your hysterical strawmen, or your many fallacies, but that still doesn't make it a substantive argument.

Asking for ID is an invasion of privacy. Police are not allowed to do it unless that have specific cause. Arizona has just extended that specific cause to the color of a person's skin.

And I'm sorry, but the only people "grasping at straws" are those who drafted and passed this insane law. Let the cops do real police work, rather than asking innocent people for their papers.

BS. They didn't have the right to do this "real police work" until the law was passed, and what part of "they're not allowed to just ask for ID" don't you get? Maybe it's that you don't want to get cause then you're argument falls to pieces.

[GMac]

Let's look at the population difference between NYC and Phoenix.

Phoenix = 1,601,587

NYC = 8,363,710

That's a hell of a lot more people to protect and serve. So, basically, the population could have an effect. After all NYC is the second most populated city in North America (not far behind Mexico City). All you're doing is desperately looking for a reason to oppose. In this case it's the cops fault, in another it's the legislation's fault. Why don't we just let them waltz right in, sure let's give the illegal immigrants the right to vote and all the benefits of US citizens and legal residents. Would you like that? Or would you like to stop grasping at straws and get rid a of problem in illegal immigration? There is no invasion of privacy by asking for ID. If you have a problem with a cop you should be complaining about him and not generalizing.

Yay numbers... population numbers are fine but lets look at the actual police force numbers...

NYPD approx 34500 uniformed officers

Phoenix approx 2800 plus

So by doing some simple math, New York has approximately 1 uniformed officer for every 242 people while Phoenix has about 1 uniformed officer for every 572 people.

see a problem here?

The NYPD has more 2 times the strength of the Phoenix cops. But then again the NYPD can concentrate on real crimes like murders and thefts and not wondering if Paco running the taco stand down the block has his proper papers.

Just wanted to add some more numbers here while i am at it..

All these are averaged per 10,000 people

Violent Crime

New York 580.3

Phoenix 659.9

Murders

New York 6.3

Phoenix 10.5

Forcible Rape

New York 10.7

Phoenix 30.3

anyway... you see the point Phoenix leads New York per capita on all major crimes... there were more i could list i just decided to stop there... everything from arson to car theft Phoenix beats New Yorkl.. yet has a police force small as my home town... yet lets add more to their over worked plate.. not saying policing is easy but there is alot more they need to worry about

[mania]

Considering how many baseball players have come to the US seeking a better life for themselves and their families, I think that if the majority of players have an issue with the law, the game should be moved, and Phoenix shouldn't be given the financial windfall of hosting. That's the free market at work, something I'd think most of the Glenn Beck fans who love the bill would support. If everyone coming to the country had multi-million dollar businesses sponsoring them like baseball has, there'd be no illegal immigration.

[rams80]

I'm sorry, I was wrong. I guess the emotional argument is your strongest card. It's better than your hysterical strawmen, or your many fallacies, but that still doesn't make it a substantive argument.

Asking for ID is an invasion of privacy. Police are not allowed to do it unless that have specific cause. Arizona has just extended that specific cause to the color of a person's skin.

And I'm sorry, but the only people "grasping at straws" are those who drafted and passed this insane law. Let the cops do real police work, rather than asking innocent people for their papers.

BS. They didn't have the right to do this "real police work" until the law was passed, and what part of "they're not allowed to just ask for ID" don't you get? Maybe it's that you don't want to get cause then you're argument falls to pieces.

And what part of "they have large leeway in what they can stop you for, so that they can ask you for your papers" don't you get? Even if you weren't committing the first violation they were stopping you for allegedly doing, once you are stopped, they can ask you for your ID.

[NJTank]

http://themoderatevoice.com/79445/i-am-an-immigrant-resident-of-arizona/

[GMac]

Frank we arent arguing about immigrants who are here legally, we are talking about harassing the people the were born in the states being harassed by this law... i believe i stated that immigrants coming to the states would be proud to legally be in the states and that blog you posted says as much