David Tyree is a moron

[illwauk]

In the interest of fairness, it should be pointed out that there are many churches ready and eager to marry gay people, but are prevented under these unjust laws. Somehow that never comes up when the bigots raise the "religious freedom" canard.

I agree... and for the record, good on those churches. But the fact remains that this (like so many others in our history) is a problem entirely due to the intolerance... and outright hatred, in many instances... perpetuated by the institution of organized religion.

Since we're only one page in and this has already been alluded to a small handful of times, I'd like to point out... before Tyree's nonsense becomes more "evidence" of Black Americans' supposed natural inclination towards homophobia... that a far higher percentage of black folks (including Tyree) identify as Christian and that is the primary source of homophobia amongst black people. A decent chunk of blackfolk also identify with Islam which has its own issues with teh gays as well.

Sadly, I'm asked to speak on this far more often than I would hope (I'm often called upon by clueless whitefolks to answer questions they're too afraid to ask anyone whose black once they find out what I'm in school for) and is therefore a source of great frustration for me and has does nothing to make me second guess my assertion that organized religion is the worst thing to ever happen to humankind.

What are you in school for that is so useful to "clueless whitefolks"?

My major is Africology and (since apparently it needs to be stated explicitly) by no means am I saying that all white people are clueless. It's just that volunteering this information tends to make me a lightning rod for those who are.

[DustDevil61]

Not surprising. Other than the Mormon Church, Black churches are the reason Prop 8 passed in California.

Well, I've said this before and I'll say this again concerning Prop 8, but the LDS (Mormon) Church often gets (often solely) blamed for Prop 8 passing. Even if every last Church member were to vote in favor of Same-Sex Marriage, the numbers still wouldn't be enough to change the outcome of the vote--about 2% of California's population is LDS, while the margin was about 5%.

True, but only if voting was the sole thing the LDS did to pass Prop 8.

Hint: it wasn't. They also contributed and funnelled the contributions of others, to the tune of nearly $25M. Half of the total amount spent to promote it.

So it's terribly disingenuous for the Church to pretend that they weren't instrumental in its passage. Even if it did try to hide the money trail.

On the other hand, I really don't see much difference, when it comes to rights, between marriage and civil unions. Maybe I don't understand the difference between a civil union and a marriage, but they seem very, very similar. The difference, to me, between what's called marriage and what's called a civil union is whether the partners can naturally have children or not (or at least have that potential). If a civil union contains all the rights of marriage for a same-sex couple, then where's the problem?

The problem is that "separate but equal" isn't equal.

In practice, this means that civil unions don't actually guarantee rights. Wisconsin Governor Walker is right now trying to have civil union rights stripped from gay couples. Can't do that with marriage. Again, this is why "separate but equal" isn't equal.

Finally, unless you're going to make procreation a legal requirement for marriage, that's a total red herring. Setting aside the fact that many gay people are already parents, or can become parents in any number of ways.

Well, like I said before, I wasn't too clear about the differences between civil unions and marriages, and wasn't aware of the Wisconsin governor trying to strip civil unions from gay couples.

I never meant to say that the LDS Church had no influence on the Prop 8 voting; it just seems as though they got most the flak for supporting "Yes on 8." Wasn't the money raised against Prop 8 more than for Prop 8? Wouldn't that have influenced the election's outcome more?

But, I'm going to get off this thread before too long; I'm no fan of political discussion.

[infrared41]

I apologize if this sounds the wrong way, but I don't see why people got so angry over the results of the Prop 8 vote; the process was (whether you agree with it or not) done by the majority's voice. Nor do I understand why there's such a big deal being made over what you call one thing or another when, at least in my eyes, they entail the same thing.

So if the "majority" passes a law stating that every tuesday you have to have sex with a goat in front of a crowd of onlookers, does that make it a good law?

[infrared41]

I think the most dazling part of this whole thing is that Sterling actually posted something. Welcome back, big guy.

I concur. Welcome back, Sterling!

This Sterling guy must be seriously old school. I've been here six years and I've never heard of him.

In any case, if two of the mods are welcoming him back, odds are he's a good guy. So welcome back Sterling.

[Dexter Morgan]

I apologize if this sounds the wrong way, but I don't see why people got so angry over the results of the Prop 8 vote; the process was (whether you agree with it or not) done by the majority's voice.

You think Civil Rights laws would of passed in the 50's and 60's? If it was put to a vote, Jim Crow may still be in effect in the south. People should NEVER vote on a another persons rights. PERIOD.

[charger77]

I apologize if this sounds the wrong way, but I don't see why people got so angry over the results of the Prop 8 vote; the process was (whether you agree with it or not) done by the majority's voice.

You think Civil Rights laws would of passed in the 50's and 60's? If it was put to a vote, Jim Crow may still be in effect in the south. People should NEVER vote on a another persons rights. PERIOD.

Is marriage a right?

[Gothamite]

I never meant to say that the LDS Church had no influence on the Prop 8 voting; it just seems as though they got most the flak for supporting "Yes on 8." Wasn't the money raised against Prop 8 more than for Prop 8? Wouldn't that have influenced the election's outcome more?

Not necessarily. It's easier to stoke fires of fear, ignorance and prejudice.

If the LDS Church was so proud of its activism, it wouldn't have tried to hide it. The fact that they did makes me suspect that they knew they were on the wrong side.

[Gothamite]

I apologize if this sounds the wrong way, but I don't see why people got so angry over the results of the Prop 8 vote; the process was (whether you agree with it or not) done by the majority's voice.

You think Civil Rights laws would of passed in the 50's and 60's? If it was put to a vote, Jim Crow may still be in effect in the south. People should NEVER vote on a another persons rights. PERIOD.

Is marriage a right?

Yes it is. Guaranteed under our Constitution.

See Loving v. Virginia.

[Dexter Morgan]

I apologize if this sounds the wrong way, but I don't see why people got so angry over the results of the Prop 8 vote; the process was (whether you agree with it or not) done by the majority's voice.

You think Civil Rights laws would of passed in the 50's and 60's? If it was put to a vote, Jim Crow may still be in effect in the south. People should NEVER vote on a another persons rights. PERIOD.

Is marriage a right?

Is this a serious question?

[charger77]

I apologize if this sounds the wrong way, but I don't see why people got so angry over the results of the Prop 8 vote; the process was (whether you agree with it or not) done by the majority's voice.

You think Civil Rights laws would of passed in the 50's and 60's? If it was put to a vote, Jim Crow may still be in effect in the south. People should NEVER vote on a another persons rights. PERIOD.

Is marriage a right?

Yes it is. Guaranteed under our Constitution.

See Loving v. Virginia.

Doesn't that case say that race can't be used as a barrier in Marriage as opposed to declaring it a right?

[charger77]

I apologize if this sounds the wrong way, but I don't see why people got so angry over the results of the Prop 8 vote; the process was (whether you agree with it or not) done by the majority's voice.

You think Civil Rights laws would of passed in the 50's and 60's? If it was put to a vote, Jim Crow may still be in effect in the south. People should NEVER vote on a another persons rights. PERIOD.

Is marriage a right?

Is this a serious question?

yes

[Dexter Morgan]

I apologize if this sounds the wrong way, but I don't see why people got so angry over the results of the Prop 8 vote; the process was (whether you agree with it or not) done by the majority's voice.

You think Civil Rights laws would of passed in the 50's and 60's? If it was put to a vote, Jim Crow may still be in effect in the south. People should NEVER vote on a another persons rights. PERIOD.

Is marriage a right?

Is this a serious question?

yes

Give me one reason why two consenting adults can be denied marriage

[charger77]

I apologize if this sounds the wrong way, but I don't see why people got so angry over the results of the Prop 8 vote; the process was (whether you agree with it or not) done by the majority's voice.

You think Civil Rights laws would of passed in the 50's and 60's? If it was put to a vote, Jim Crow may still be in effect in the south. People should NEVER vote on a another persons rights. PERIOD.

Is marriage a right?

Is this a serious question?

yes

Give me one reason why two consenting adults can be denied marriage?

I've already gone on the record in the CCSCL many times as saying gay people should be able to get married.

[Gothamite]

I apologize if this sounds the wrong way, but I don't see why people got so angry over the results of the Prop 8 vote; the process was (whether you agree with it or not) done by the majority's voice.

You think Civil Rights laws would of passed in the 50's and 60's? If it was put to a vote, Jim Crow may still be in effect in the south. People should NEVER vote on a another persons rights. PERIOD.

Is marriage a right?

Yes it is. Guaranteed under our Constitution.

See Loving v. Virginia.

Doesn't that case say that race can't be used as a barrier in Marriage as opposed to declaring it a right?

No. From the opinion:

"Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man,"

Other cases have affirmed the right to marry, including Turner v. Safley.

Marriage is a right guaranteed us under our Constitution. Why should we deny gay couples their rights?

[Dexter Morgan]

I apologize if this sounds the wrong way, but I don't see why people got so angry over the results of the Prop 8 vote; the process was (whether you agree with it or not) done by the majority's voice.

You think Civil Rights laws would of passed in the 50's and 60's? If it was put to a vote, Jim Crow may still be in effect in the south. People should NEVER vote on a another persons rights. PERIOD.

Is marriage a right?

Is this a serious question?

yes

Give me one reason why two consenting adults can be denied marriage?

I've already gone on the record in the CCSCL many times as saying gay people should be able to get married.

You asked if marriage was a right. If it wasn't, then surely there would be legitimate reasons to deny a couple from being married. If there isn't, then it's obviously a right.

[charger77]

I apologize if this sounds the wrong way, but I don't see why people got so angry over the results of the Prop 8 vote; the process was (whether you agree with it or not) done by the majority's voice.

You think Civil Rights laws would of passed in the 50's and 60's? If it was put to a vote, Jim Crow may still be in effect in the south. People should NEVER vote on a another persons rights. PERIOD.

Is marriage a right?

Yes it is. Guaranteed under our Constitution.

See Loving v. Virginia.

Doesn't that case say that race can't be used as a barrier in Marriage as opposed to declaring it a right?

No. From the opinion:

"Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man,"

I didn't know that Court system granted rights.

[charger77]

I apologize if this sounds the wrong way, but I don't see why people got so angry over the results of the Prop 8 vote; the process was (whether you agree with it or not) done by the majority's voice.

You think Civil Rights laws would of passed in the 50's and 60's? If it was put to a vote, Jim Crow may still be in effect in the south. People should NEVER vote on a another persons rights. PERIOD.

Is marriage a right?

Is this a serious question?

yes

Give me one reason why two consenting adults can be denied marriage?

I've already gone on the record in the CCSCL many times as saying gay people should be able to get married.

You asked if marriage was a right. If it wasn't, then surely there would be legitimate reasons to deny a couple from being married. If there isn't, then it's obviously a right.

Rights are a pretty serious thing. I'm not sure if your circular logic is the way to grant them.

People can do lots of things that are not rights.

We both agree that Gay people should get married. I was just asking if marriage regardless if it is Man/Man Woman/Woman or Man/Woman is a right.

[Gothamite]

I didn't know that Court system granted rights.

Sigh. It doesn't.

The Constitution guarantees rights that we already possess. But rights don't have to be listed in the Constitution (see "Amendment, 9th").

Courts are sometimes called upon to determine if state action interferes with our rights. Which they have done several times on this issue, reaffirming the Constitutional right to marry every time.

So, given that marriage is a fundamental right, on what grounds should we deny gay couples their rights?

[IceCap]

In the interest of fairness, it should be pointed out that there are many churches ready and eager to marry gay people, but are prevented under these unjust laws. Somehow that never comes up when the bigots raise the "religious freedom" canard.

I agree... and for the record, good on those churches. But the fact remains that this (like so many others in our history) is a problem entirely due to the intolerance... and outright hatred, in many instances... perpetuated by the institution of organized religion.

I agree with so much of what illwauk stands for, but stuff like this makes me go "why's it gotta be this way?" People are capable of believing in G-d without hating teh gays. It's quite easy, actually. Polls indicate that a majority of people in Canada and the United States (I would venture to say the majority of the western world actually) that identify as being religious support marriage equality. Lumping all of organized religion in with the fringe wackos is just as disingenuous as lumping all black people together as homophobic.

In short being open minded in one respect doesn't do you much good if you're going to be closed minded in another.

[Dexter Morgan]

I apologize if this sounds the wrong way, but I don't see why people got so angry over the results of the Prop 8 vote; the process was (whether you agree with it or not) done by the majority's voice.

You think Civil Rights laws would of passed in the 50's and 60's? If it was put to a vote, Jim Crow may still be in effect in the south. People should NEVER vote on a another persons rights. PERIOD.

Is marriage a right?

Is this a serious question?

yes

Give me one reason why two consenting adults can be denied marriage?

I've already gone on the record in the CCSCL many times as saying gay people should be able to get married.

You asked if marriage was a right. If it wasn't, then surely there would be legitimate reasons to deny a couple from being married. If there isn't, then it's obviously a right.

Rights are a pretty serious thing. I'm not sure if your circular logic is the way to grant them.

People can do lots of things that are not rights.

Unless something is unlawful, then you have THE RIGHT to do it.