Helmet Finish Related to Safety?

[seattlesonicsofsacramento]

The high school I went to, Rockledge, got a donation from an alum in the NFL, Laurent Robinson, of 15 Shockbox concussion sensors to use 2 seasons ago. The concussion tracking was supposed to then be analyzed by researchers from USF, but I haven't been able to find the results of that. Anyway, I know that not every high school has an NFL alum willing to make such a donation, but it might be a good time to start looking into this technology to generate some data that can then be analyzed to test hypotheses such as the one ITT. It's going to be hard to isolate the variable of helmet finish, not only because we're all predicting it to be a very small factor but also because it'll most likely require multiple schools cooperating together, but it seems the only way to move this idea from conjecture to science.

[pianoknight]

I'm copyrighting the term "Wax for Wax's Sake," or WFWS.

[guest23]

Great little thread there. I'm right there with you. I hadn't put much thought into head rotation and neck issues, but if anything, that strengthens our argument. I also think the decals play a big role, especially the oversized ones and super-wide striping patterns. That vinyl is pretty thick and sticky and could do just as much to worsen a hit as a helmet finish could

You don't have much of an argument. The force of impact will overwhelm any additional friction provided by a matte finish. You could likely even measure it but the statistical significance in terms of determining the trajectory of the blow or recoil would not be statistically significant.

i think there's a pretty strong argument that helmet finish (and possibly decal material) could have a measurable amount of influence on player safety in helmet-to-helmet collisions. most collisions aren't perfectly centered, head-on collisions, in exact opposite directions, on the exact same plane, at a perfect angle. They're normally off-center, random angles, etc., so the force of impact will be affected by deflection of the opposing helmet due in some part to the level of friction of the helmets, based on their finish. the main point here through all of this is that the brain slams up against the inside of the skull due to inertia when the the skull abruptly descelerates. anything that increases the rate of desceleration contributes to an increase in player risk for potential head injury. i would say there has been a pretty clear case represented that certain helmet finishes promote an increased rate of desceleration due to an increase in fricion, thus providing an increased risk to the player. i'm not sure what the differences are, and for all i know, they may be negligible (although ANY difference, when compounded over time, becomes a much bigger issue), but none of us truly know, so people's opinions don't hold much water when this needs to be determined by scientific experiment (thus making the results more "fact" than "opinion").

Actually opinions are are frequently unequal. Scientists & engineers don't test every single hypothesis that comes out of the blue as there are enough educated and intelligent minds that can easily rule out certain scenarios through basic understanding of physics and math. If something warrants further investigation you can even do simple modeling and extrapolation to determine feasibility and should that pass muster you could warrant a full scale test and record actual data.

Also please provide your clear evidence of measurable deceleration based on helmet finish. I'd like to review the findings myself.

[perfesser]

I would be interested to know if matte helmets have any impact on the frequency of neck injuries. Teams stopped using helmets with soft external padding because they believed the friction created by the soft padding meant more "grabbing" on impact and less "sliding." I don't know if this was ever proven and I certainly don't know if the differences in helmet finishes would be significant enough to cause a similar effect.

[BrandMooreArt]

this hypothesis was brought up when teams first started using a matte finish. i havent been able to find any studies done on finishes alone so its hard to say how much it matter and what effects there are, but the original point makes sense to me. but if helmets are sticking on impact, i would assume there would be more of an increase in neck injuries than concussions.

WavePunter, the rival school's concussion numbers being 4x higher than yours is interesting but we'd have to look at more than just helmet finish. what brand/model of helmet are they wearing? are they fitted the same way? did they play more games? do they have more players? how many wear mouth pieces?

also, i think painting or clear coating helmets can have harmful effects as well. Bill Simpson has found that the weight of a helmet can increase risk of concussion, so one of his primary goals was to reduce the total weight of his S&G helmets. he did this by making his shells out of kevlar because "plastic shells were never meant to prevent concussions, they were designed to prevent skull fractures".

[WavePunter]

Great little thread there. I'm right there with you. I hadn't put much thought into head rotation and neck issues, but if anything, that strengthens our argument. I also think the decals play a big role, especially the oversized ones and super-wide striping patterns. That vinyl is pretty thick and sticky and could do just as much to worsen a hit as a helmet finish could

You don't have much of an argument. The force of impact will overwhelm any additional friction provided by a matte finish. You could likely even measure it but the statistical significance in terms of determining the trajectory of the blow or recoil would not be statistically significant.

i think there's a pretty strong argument that helmet finish (and possibly decal material) could have a measurable amount of influence on player safety in helmet-to-helmet collisions. most collisions aren't perfectly centered, head-on collisions, in exact opposite directions, on the exact same plane, at a perfect angle. They're normally off-center, random angles, etc., so the force of impact will be affected by deflection of the opposing helmet due in some part to the level of friction of the helmets, based on their finish. the main point here through all of this is that the brain slams up against the inside of the skull due to inertia when the the skull abruptly descelerates. anything that increases the rate of desceleration contributes to an increase in player risk for potential head injury. i would say there has been a pretty clear case represented that certain helmet finishes promote an increased rate of desceleration due to an increase in fricion, thus providing an increased risk to the player. i'm not sure what the differences are, and for all i know, they may be negligible (although ANY difference, when compounded over time, becomes a much bigger issue), but none of us truly know, so people's opinions don't hold much water when this needs to be determined by scientific experiment (thus making the results more "fact" than "opinion").

Actually opinions are are frequently unequal. Scientists & engineers don't test every single hypothesis that comes out of the blue as there are enough educated and intelligent minds that can easily rule out certain scenarios through basic understanding of physics and math. If something warrants further investigation you can even do simple modeling and extrapolation to determine feasibility and should that pass muster you could warrant a full scale test and record actual data.

Also please provide your clear evidence of measurable deceleration based on helmet finish. I'd like to review the findings myself.

i dont recall saying that various opinions are euqal or suggesting anything of the sort. i was simply stating that my opinion is that helmet finish does matter and your opinion is that it doesn't matter, and we'll never truly know until studies are performed. i also stated that "i would say (opinion) there has been a pretty clear case (pretty clear - not really scientific evidence)..." so i dont have any findings other than what's been discussed so far in this thread.

what i do know is that we have an engineer, who i would assume is somewhat of an expert on physics and structure, etc., and an equipment manager who works with two different college teams and examines hundreds of helmets regularly, and we both agree that there MAY be some validity to our suspicion that helmet finishes affect safety. i dont think its worth the risk to ignore just because it doesnt make "much" of a difference.. im just sharing an observation and providing my thoughts on the observation.

i look at it like a baseball - if the ball is a skull with a tiny brain inside, i want to produce more "foul tips" to simply deflect the impact, rather than having solid contact.. anything that help reduce desceleration and solid impact is a good thing in my book

[guest23]

Great little thread there. I'm right there with you. I hadn't put much thought into head rotation and neck issues, but if anything, that strengthens our argument. I also think the decals play a big role, especially the oversized ones and super-wide striping patterns. That vinyl is pretty thick and sticky and could do just as much to worsen a hit as a helmet finish could

You don't have much of an argument. The force of impact will overwhelm any additional friction provided by a matte finish. You could likely even measure it but the statistical significance in terms of determining the trajectory of the blow or recoil would not be statistically significant.

i think there's a pretty strong argument that helmet finish (and possibly decal material) could have a measurable amount of influence on player safety in helmet-to-helmet collisions. most collisions aren't perfectly centered, head-on collisions, in exact opposite directions, on the exact same plane, at a perfect angle. They're normally off-center, random angles, etc., so the force of impact will be affected by deflection of the opposing helmet due in some part to the level of friction of the helmets, based on their finish. the main point here through all of this is that the brain slams up against the inside of the skull due to inertia when the the skull abruptly descelerates. anything that increases the rate of desceleration contributes to an increase in player risk for potential head injury. i would say there has been a pretty clear case represented that certain helmet finishes promote an increased rate of desceleration due to an increase in fricion, thus providing an increased risk to the player. i'm not sure what the differences are, and for all i know, they may be negligible (although ANY difference, when compounded over time, becomes a much bigger issue), but none of us truly know, so people's opinions don't hold much water when this needs to be determined by scientific experiment (thus making the results more "fact" than "opinion").

Actually opinions are are frequently unequal. Scientists & engineers don't test every single hypothesis that comes out of the blue as there are enough educated and intelligent minds that can easily rule out certain scenarios through basic understanding of physics and math. If something warrants further investigation you can even do simple modeling and extrapolation to determine feasibility and should that pass muster you could warrant a full scale test and record actual data.

Also please provide your clear evidence of measurable deceleration based on helmet finish. I'd like to review the findings myself.

i dont recall saying that various opinions are euqal or suggesting anything of the sort. i was simply stating that my opinion is that helmet finish does matter and your opinion is that it doesn't matter, and we'll never truly know until studies are performed. i also stated that "i would say (opinion) there has been a pretty clear case (pretty clear - not really scientific evidence)..." so i dont have any findings other than what's been discussed so far in this thread.

what i do know is that we have an engineer, who i would assume is somewhat of an expert on physics and structure, etc., and an equipment manager who works with two different college teams and examines hundreds of helmets regularly, and we both agree that there MAY be some validity to our suspicion that helmet finishes affect safety. i dont think its worth the risk to ignore just because it doesnt make "much" of a difference.. im just sharing an observation and providing my thoughts on the observation.

i look at it like a baseball - if the ball is a skull with a tiny brain inside, i want to produce more "foul tips" to simply deflect the impact, rather than having solid contact.. anything that help reduce desceleration and solid impact is a good thing in my book

This is nothing like baseball. A typical hit to the helmet involves another helmet. A bat/ball combination is not a great analogy, the physics are completely different and you have two objects of completely different constructions. If anything maybe you could use two bowling balls to illustrate your point but even that is a flimsy analogy. If you want to do an informal experiment why not place helmets of varying finishes in each of your hands and swing them together as hard as you can to create an impact? You can then collect your casual observations to see if there's any noticeable difference at the point of impact. Chances are the impact will be so hard you'll get nothing more than a bouncing effect and if you attempt to increase the force you'll either see the finish chip or even the shell crack before you'll notice any sort of sticking.

[Midway]

Hypotheses aside, it'd be worth looking into if only for the sake of killing off the stupid frost texture helmets.

[IceCap]

Edited the title of the thread to better reflect the discussion.

[ONUV]

it might be true but wouldn't that only apply to illegal helmet to helmet tackles?

[Jamikel]

I have no idea how much this actually has any effect on safety, but I'm sick of matte helmets, so I'd love to see this trend catch on.