Is this McGwire contoversy right?

[managerian]

I remember going to an

A's game at Fenway with my dad in the early 90's, and

going early (as we always did) to watch batting

practice. McGwire had only been in the league for a

few years....he was still skinny then. We sat there

behind the plate and watched him just BLAST balls out

of Fenway. I mean, he hit a couple all the way back

to the wall behind the seats in dead center. He could

always mash, even back then. I remember, being like

10 at the time, just being in absolute AWE of

him......i understand that doesnt really mean

anything, and I realize he got much much bigger......

This brings up another interesting point. What is

more important? The ideal of a situation, or the

reality of it? Here is what I mean by this:

I LOVED Wade Boggs.....he was my hero. I had

posters of him all over my room, t-shirts I used magic

markers to look like his jersey....the whole nine

yards. I also had a sports facts day calendar, the

kind where you peel one off everyday. On each day was

a "On this day in baseball......." fact. One day, I

peeled it off, and it was "on this day in 198x Wade

Boggs was caught having an affair on his wife, ect"

Doesnt seem like a big deal today, actually seems

rather commonplace. Anyway, I took it down to my dad,

and I was absolutely CONVINCED it was a misprint. To

me, he was infallible. The thought that he could do

anything wrong NEVER would have occured to me (Little

did my naive childish ass know that he would later

parade around yankee stadium on horseback).

So is it more important to have that ideal role model

in your head, or is it more important to realize that

the ideal role model is, in fact, deeply flawed? For

all those kids in St Louis, who idolize Big Mac,

should his name be dragged through the mud without any

real proof of wrong doing?

[See Red]

First off, let me say, I don't care what Mark McGwire did -- He could've walked up to home plate with a syringe sticking out of his ass -- he didn't do anything against baseballs rules. Therefore, his accomplishments should always stand, and should never be diminished.

I don't think his name should be dragged through the mud until it's proven that he's taken them. Who are people listening to about this -- Jose Canseco? Oh yeah, he's a credible source. Say all you want about how 'Canseco would know, he's gotta be a steroid expert' -- first off, in his book, he claims if steroids are taking 'properly', they can slow down the aging process -- wrong, the guys seriously an idiot and can't honestly be taken seriously.

[CaolinaJoe]

That's somewhat hypocritical. Steroids became an illegal substance, federally, in 1992. You can't hold him to a different standard than Bonds is held to. No one knows if Barry ever tested positive for any drugs or who did once the ban was introduced in MLB.

If Canseco hadn't opened his mouth and he never used BALCO, no one would know he used them. The only ones involved in any steroid talk are BALCO clients. I can assure there are thousands of other sources for steroids besides BALCO.

[See Red]

I've been among the biggest defenders of Bonds on this board, though.

And while yes, they're an illegal substance, federally, I still don't think it's fair to suddenly discount all McGwires totals -- even if it was proven he took illegal steroids -- because they weren't against the MLB rules, at the time.

[rockchalk]

Honestly, I was one of those kids. (Well, not in STL, closer to KC, but I adopted for a couple years ) I was 13 by the time he broke the record in early September, and it was something that I remember hearing about, but I didn't want to believe it. I was a smart kid, I'd seen all the before and after pictures, but baseball was (and is) my game, and that was the most exciting summer I can remember. Finding out something like that would've been like finding out Santa and the Easter Bunny and all of that stuff wasn't real all at the same time, and who wants that?

[STL FANATIC]

Here's the thing...there's way more evidence to suggest Mac innocent...

I'll let the homer chants get out of the way now, and tomorrow (or late tonite) when I'm not swamped with a school project, I'll come back and make my case.

[Mac6674]

I remember McGwire hitting 49 HRs as a rookie, so it's not like his power wasn't there already, but anybody who gets to that size and hits homers at that rate during that time period is now legitimately under suspicion. Having said that, though, the arguments used to "prove" he was juicing are sometimes quite stupid. Regarding his size; I don't know that he exploded overnight like some other Bay Area sluggers you may care to mention; after all, he was injured in mid-career and pretty much fell off the map for about 2 full seasons; if he was slowly bulking up no one really cared at that point. Also, wasn't his brother an NFL quarterback? And McGwire himself said the the only person he'd seen with bigger forearms than him was his dad; so clearly, there's something in the DNA, here. The bottom line, though, is we'll never know; there's no proof beyond hearsay, and he'll never admit it, so it's all speculation.

[CaolinaJoe]

The thing that seems to matter here the most is:

McGwire is considered a likeable farm boy type, who the press loved and looked like he belonged on the cover of "The Saturday Evening Post".

Bonds is considered an arrogant ass who everyone loves to hate, and he loves being hated.

McGwire gets defenders and Bonds gets lynch mobs.

Forget Canseco and Caminitti. Remember when the whole steroid thing blew up? It was thanks to Mr. McGwire. That little bottle of andro in his locker during an interview set all of this in motion.

[BBTV]

I've been among the biggest defenders of Bonds on this board, though.

And while yes, they're an illegal substance, federally, I still don't think it's fair to suddenly discount all McGwires totals -- even if it was proven he took illegal steroids -- because they weren't against the MLB rules, at the time.

I would think that Federal laws may just supercede baseball rules.

[See Red]

How many of these guys (Bonds, McGwire, others) have been been found guilty of, and, by law, punished for, steroids?

What I'm saying is they didn't violate MLB rules -- so on what grounds can the MLB punish them?

[pcgd]

You know what the difference between McGwire and Bonds is?

Bonds Admitted to it, and then he tried to say he didn't know what it was.

If its proven McGwire took steroids, and he lied all this time, I'll burn all my McGwire stuff.

But it isn't proven, he hasn't admitted it, and he stoped taking Andro when he realized the effect it had on kids.

Bonds always had speculation, as has mcgwire. Then he admitted it. There's nothing you can do. He said he took them. He's a user.

The person getting away with everything is Gary Sheffield. He admitted pretty much the same thing Bonds did, saying he didn't know what it was until later. But his name rarely comes up. You here more about Benito Santiago than Sheffield.

[CaolinaJoe]

Bonds didn't "admit" to anything. All he admitted to doing was taking something his trainer/friend gave him, and he didn't know if it was steroids or not.

How do we know McGwire stopped? Because he said? All we know is he took it out of his locker. Andro at the time was know to be basically a steroid when Mac was taking it, just under a prettier name.

[WSU151]

Bonds Admitted to it, and then he tried to say he didn't know what it was.

If its proven McGwire took steroids, and he lied all this time, I'll burn all my McGwire stuff.

Bonds always had speculation, as has mcgwire. Then he admitted it. There's nothing you can do. He said he took them. He's a user.

McGwire admitted to using andro...and Bonds has yet to admit that he took steroids. Show me one time where Bonds came out and said, "Hey I used steroids". Hasn't happened. That's why there is all this controversy.

[managerian]

The person getting away with everything is Gary Sheffield.  He admitted pretty much the same thing Bonds did, saying he didn't know what it was until later.  But his name rarely comes up.  You here more about Benito Santiago than Sheffield.

Sheffield gets away with murder in the NY media because he still produces. I guarantee that if Gaimbi had hit 50 home runs last year he would be a NY darling, and there is no way the Yankees would have tried to void his contract.

[CaolinaJoe]

Sheff gets away with some of it also because he is on the Barry bashing side.

[CaolinaJoe]

Funny. Canseco claims all these guys who have never been brought up in the whole roid issue he started. Yet, Giambi he says he had nothing to do with him. He says McGwire turned Giambi on to it.

Please make this all go away.

[managerian]

Canseco would sound a little more believable if he didn't implicate EVERY huge star he played with. Its not like he is sitting here naming guys who were struggling to get to the majors.........

[NJTank]

I think what hurts Jose is even if he is telling the truth hes doing it out of bitterness and spite, and hes betraying his buddies, all becuase of how he was blackballed out of the game.

[DEAD!]

Even if Canseco was telling the truth, he should not have reveled it in a book, he should reveled it in front of a grand jury. The "betrayal" doesn't matter to me as long as it's true, and if it's done in good intentions..... well one out of two isn't bad

[jkrdevil]

I hate when people say well it wasn't illegal in mlb at the time. Yes, but it was illegal in the US, which makes it illegal in mlb. There is no mlb rule that says you can't bring a gun to the plate and shoot the pitcher but I bet if you did you would get banned. And as far as they haven't been convicted so they can;t be punished, how about the Black Sox they were aquitted and still banned, also at that time there was no rule that you couldn't throw the games or gamble. Or how about more recently when Will Cordero was suspended when he was arrested of beating his wife, he hadn't been convicted yet but still MLB suspended him. Precedent shows MLB can take whatever action it seems fit.

As far as McGwire, I have suspected him before the book. Like I said before I say a picture of him from this past year and he was as then as a rail, like Giambi was after he stopped taking roids. The book only adds to what I thought.