Why Do So Many Hate the NBA?

[nsentv]

So far, I've heard a lot of comments that say the NBA is too 'me, me, me'.

What about the NFL? What about Terrell Owens and Randy Moss? What about constant hold-outs in the offseason?

Also, if you hate the 'me, me, me' so much, why didn't you watch the Finals? Nobody can say that there were any selfish players on the Pistons and Spurs. Nobody can say that there were any players who didn't give an effort.

Last year's Finals was perfect for those who are down on the league. Two teams with great fundamentals, no flashy, me, me, me players, and two teams who had great respect for their coaches.

So explain how last year's Finals had the second lowest ratings since the Nielsen's began.

[slapshot]

The reason you don't hear people complaining about the "me me me I I I" in other sports is because the rosters are that much bigger. In basketball, it's a lot easier for one person to try nd hog the spotlight than it is in other sports. One person is 1/5 his team. So it's a lot easier to spot 20% of the team participating in 80% of the on-court activity, it really stands out.

The "thug" description is absolutely because of race. But look back at the history of this "movement":

The league has been predominantly black since at least the early 70s. But for the most part, the players (regardless of race) were not sporting selfish "look at me all the time" attitudes. Chamberlain, Russell, Havlicek, Kareem, Dr. J, all were huge stars, but they let their on-court ability speak for them instead of off-court activity. It was a different time, and people really didn't care much about what anyone did off-court.

But look at the sport in the 90s until now. The era of the "thug", so to speak. Everyone wanted to be like Mike, so they started to develop their individual game to be more flashy. Trying to do everything on their own. And since the league is 85% black, and the black player is more identified as a basketball player than for other sports, the association starts to develop that the flashy player is just another black "ball hog".

Around this time, you also had the East Coast-West Coast rapper rivalry. The rappers and their gangsta movements were on the news all the time, and any time you saw one of them on stage, they wore NBA jerseys (and this is pre-Mitchell & Ness). Of course, famous musicians and famous athletes tend to hang out. So this also developed into players' posses, with the gangsta rappers members of them as well.

This little essay might seem overly simplified, but this is what I've seen in the 25 or so years that I've paid attention to the NBA. As a white man, I'm not put off by the huge percentage of non-white players in the game. I'm put off by the swarm of primadonnas (all races) who have fit into the sterotype of thug players. Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Amare Stoudamire. Three great players who have not been linked with the thug crowd. but for those 3, it seems that there are 10 that go the other way, because they've been corrupted. And that's why I watch NCAA instead of the NBA.

[infrared41]

The league is 80-85% Black..there's your answer

I think that's a little unfair. The league had about as many black players in the 80's as it does now. I'm not so naive to believe that the persona of some players today hasn't turned off a small percentage of fans but it's hardly the main issue. I can only speak for myself but I think the level of play is the biggest reason people don't care for the NBA as much as they used to.

The culture of current players has nothing to do with my lack of interest in the NBA. 74-65 final scores have everything to do with it. The level of play has dropped off considerably. Simply stated the game isn't any fun to watch these days.

All I can say is watch a game from the 80's on ESPN Classic (especially the Lakers) and then tell me today's level of play is just as good. The NBA today is just a poor product with good marketing.

I'll take Doc, Kareem and Magic, Zeke, The Coop-a-loop, Bernard King , World B. Free, Vinny Johnson, Lakers vs. Celtics etc. over today's players everytime. Not because of culture but because of quality.

[no97]

Okay, I'll add my 2 cents here. I was a big NBA fan in the '80's and '90's - Jordan era and Bulls fan. I enjoyed seeing games that were 120-110. I don't, however, think this has anythig to do with the fall of the league. I truely think it can be boiled down to one word:

Shaq

I quit watching the NBA for a while from about 1999 to about 2002. I came back to watch a play-off game between Sacramento and the Lakers, and saw the worst officiating job ever between Shaq and whoever was defending him. If Shaq was on offense, you touch him on the arm, he goes to the line. If Shaq is on offense, and he runs you over, however, there is no such thing as an offensive foul. Same on the defensive side of the floor. Shaq could use his body to manhandle another player, with nothing being called.

It took that one game for me to see the Kings getting robbed (or was it Portland - I don't remember...), for me to say that's it. I never need to see another NBA game again.

On top of it, the game was built up so much by ESPN, I had to see the reaction on SportsCenter - surely they would rail on the ref's. Nope. "Great defense by Shaq." "Partland (Or Sacramento) couldn't penetrate the Laker defense." Well, duh, Shaq was cheating!

Sorry NBA fans, I'll stick with High School and College bouncy ball. At least you can't get away with 3-4 steps before a traveling call, and "muggings" before it's a foul if you're a superstar.

Moose

[OnWis97]

For me it's that it pales in comparison to the excitement of the college game. When both are going on, give me Central Florida/Utah State (or whoever) over Suns/Kings any day. The atmosphere is better in college. The NBA season is too long and it is hard to go out and play exciting games 82 times a year. Then comes March Madness--best time of the year. When that is done, I'll catch the occasional playoff game, but even those games are boring products of a postseason that is too damn long.

And I get very tired of preferential treatment for superstars. Is the league fixed? No. But when a team has three superstars and they are playing someone with one superstar, that is a huge additional advantage. The NBA's legitimacy gets called out every now and then and frankly, the NBA made that bed.

[Sterling84]

I think asking "Why do so many people hate the NBA?" is almost a question that answers itself.

You referenced it yourself. Ratings are as low as they've ever been. Why? The product sucks. Or at least doesn't rule to the level it used to.

But you asked an honest question and spent some time on it so:

1) Competition for entertainment dollars. People love to talk about the good ole days and how this used to be that way and so forth. But it cannot be argued that people have made themselves busier than ever before in the last 20 years. Almost unhealthily so. Idle time is harder to come by and there are much more rewarding, varied and cheaper activities to engage in. Player salaries have driven ticket prices up so high that an anverage family cannot afford to attend a couple games a year.

2) Guaranteed money. I watched Tim Thomas come off the bench for 3 years for 11 million per. He has no incentive to get better. The Bucks can and did trade him eventually, but he knows he's getting that dough for seven years and has to do nothing more than show up to cash in on it.

In contrast, for good or for bad......fair or unfair.....the NFL is THE hardest league to get into and the hardest league to stay in. This keeps the level of play and dedication to the craft high. Because your replacement is always right around the corner. It functions the most like the free market where all of us work. Perform and get paid. Fail and you're out on the street. Survival of the fittest. Basketball is more like politics. Well, we elected (guaranteed his contract) him......can't go back now.

3) EGO. Almost every reply has touched on the "me first" attitude. But the NBA itself has actively participated in this. It saw the opportunity and marketed the individual performance over the teams. It became Magic vs Bird, Michael vs whomever. They ran all the way to the bank in the 80s and 90s pushing the name on the back of the shirt over all else. They DID intentionally or not skew foul calls and non-violation calls toward stars. They have taken away all credibility and integrity of the game......and they did it from the inside out. They have no one else to blame and are reaping what they've sewn. Jordan vs 'Nique in the dunk contest in Chi, Shaq vs the Kings in the playoffs, Mutumbo getting called for like 4 fouls in a seven game series with Milwaukee, and many many more instances of favortism because they thought they knew what the public wanted to see. And unfortunately, basketball of all sports "seems" easier to rig, even if it's not.

4) Quality of play. When you have younger and younger men, getting paid more and more with NO risk of losing their jobs and less and less practice under their belt. The quality of the product goes down. Why did no one watch San Antonion vs Detroit? Cause it was ALL defense. Fans want to see disciplined tough D, but want to see great D beaten by even greater skilled O. They don't want to see 47 dunks on phantom defense. And they don't want to see 47 blocks or steals of non-existent offense. If the casual fan flips to an NBA game......at any night, during any portion of action.......they are likely to see one guy dribbling on offense...possibly ignoring a screen by a second guy.......and three other men literally standing still watching. When I played in high school I'd have gotten benched if I stood still. It was always......"pass and pick away!" "pass and cut to the hoop" "Pass and screen away!" "shot goes up, box out" It was exhausting. There is none of that in the NBA. It's just......I'm better than you, will dribble silly til the clock runs down and pop up some crap shot....

which leads me to 4a) Shooting. The point of all that running around and screening I described used to be to get a guy open for a good look. It pains me to say, but Jordan may have hurt the game as much as he helped it. Why? His infernal "ups" and dagger of a fadeaway J. He was the master right? Clutch at that shot. But up grow a bunch of kids who would rather not work to get open.....but just hog the ball and practice circus MJ shots. The great ones get decent at it, in HS and college especially.......but against good pro competition they settle for that lazy crap and end up shooting 38% from the field. No one wants to watch lazy men take lazy circus shots. If I wanted to see that I'd tape my uncles and I playing H.O.R.S.E.

[Discrim]

What's turned me off about the league is the officials bias towards star players.  It exists in other leagues, but not nearly to the extent of the NBA.  Even aside from said bias, the officiating is absolutely awful -- the worst of any professional sport.

I hear ya, it's like they make up their own rules as they go along. it exists in all sports, but in the NBA it's too blatant.

I remember an incident from teh playoffs a few years back. IIRC it was the Hornets' last playoff series before they moved to New Orleans, and there only a few tenths of a second left. Somehow, Baron Davis released a last ditch shot before time expired, a shot that would have beaten the Magic and extended their series...but incredibly, one of the refs had decided beforehand that it was impossible to shoot that quickly, so he waved it off immediately despite the fact that there was still time on the clock. shoot, I was pissed, and I wasn't even a Hornets fan justice prevailed, however, as the Hornets took it in OT

and that's the story of the light-up backboards

[slapshot]

Don't get me started about the lack of fundamentals, the low scores, the referee conspiracy. Those are the main reasons I don't watch the NBA, not because of race (it might have come out that way with my other post, but it's not racially related).

[Ron Mexico]

Don't get me started about the lack of fundamentals, the low scores, the referee conspiracy. Those are the main reasons I don't watch the NBA, not because of race (it might have come out that way with my other post, but it's not racially related).

Please, Mr. Stone, enlighten us to this grand conspiracy. Is the CIA involved? Al Qaeda? Santa Claus?

Be careful what you say, the NBA monitors this site for dissenters such as yourself. They have your name, location, and hobbies already.

[slapshot]

Back, and to the left.

[infrared41]

I would like to add one more thing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with marketing a product to the hip-hop culture. Maybe that is what the NBA is doing to some extent. But they should not be surprised when they start to lose guys in their 30-40's (and up) as fans. I think maybe that is at the core of the issue.

A lot of older guys like me just don't find the hip-hop culture very appealing. It isn't a racial thing at all. It's as simple as 15 year olds preferring hip-hop to Motown or Classic Rock. We tend to prefer what we grew up with. Look at how many people on this board alone prefer throwbacks and classic uniforms over the newer looks.

Of all the major team sports the NBA least resembles the league it was in from my younger days. (late 70's thru the 80's) Of course there are going to be a lot of us who like the old NBA better. It's just human nature. Add that to the quality of play, the less team oriented players, the hip-hop marketing and it's easy to see why old dudes don't care for the NBA like they used to.

To blame "thugs" or race alone is just too simple of an explanation. It's a combination of many things. And again I can only speak for myself but the "thugs" are not among my reasons for not watching anymore. Simply stated, I guess I got too old for the NBA to care whether or not I am a fan.

It's ESPN's fault too. They ruined everything.

[nsentv]

When both are going on, give me Central Florida/Utah State (or whoever) over Suns/Kings any day.

What, are you kidding me?

That being said, a lot of you have made respectable points. I don't agree with them, but I certainly can see where you might be coming from.

I would like to add one more thing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with marketing a product to the hip-hop culture. Maybe that is what the NBA is doing to some extent. But they should not be surprised when they start to lose guys in their 30-40's (and up) as fans. I think maybe that is at the core of the issue.

A lot of older guys like me just don't find the hip-hop culture very appealing. It isn't a racial thing at all. It's as simple as 15 year olds preferring hip-hop to Motown or Classic Rock. We tend to prefer what we grew up with. Look at how many people on this board alone prefer throwbacks and classic uniforms over the newer looks.

Of all the major team sports the NBA least resembles the league it was in from my younger days. (late 70's thru the 80's) Of course there are going to be a lot of us who like the old NBA better. It's just human nature. Add that to the quality of play, the less team oriented players, the hip-hop marketing and it's easy to see why old dudes don't care for the NBA like they used to.

To blame "thugs" or race alone is just too simple of an explanation. It's a combination of many things. And again I can only speak for myself but the "thugs" are not among my reasons for not watching anymore. Simply stated, I guess I got too old for the NBA to care whether or not I am a fan.

It's ESPN's fault too. They ruined everything. biggrin.gif

This point might have been the best one yet. The perception of the NBA being a 'thug', 'selfish' league might be age more than anything. I certainly don't see many people my own age dissing the league. I hadn't necessarily thought of that yesterday, but it would make sense.

Still, though, and I'd really be fascinated to know, how come nobody watched last year's Finals. With so many harping on fundamentals and team play, shouldn't Detroit-San Antonio have been one of the highest rated Finals ever? And, what about the Phoenix Suns? They were the highest scoring team in years. How come nobody followed them?

Also, what part does ABC play in all this? In 2002, the last year the NBA was on NBC, the league saw its highest playoff ratings in years. The Finals were down, but that was mainly because it was foregone conclusion. The Western Conference Finals set ratings records.

What happened between 2002 and now? Because the NBA wasn't struggling like this back then. It couldn't have been the Kobe trial, because that happened AFTER the lowest rated Finals in history. It couldn't have been the brawl, because that's too recent and this problem started well before that. For the league to have lost so much interest so drastically, I think a part of it might be the television network.

[FirearmofMutiny]

Still, though, and I'd really be fascinated to know, how come nobody watched last year's Finals. With so many harping on fundamentals and team play, shouldn't Detroit-San Antonio have been one of the highest rated Finals ever? And, what about the Phoenix Suns? They were the highest scoring team in years. How come nobody followed them?

Also, what part does ABC play in all this? In 2002, the last year the NBA was on NBC, the league saw its highest playoff ratings in years. The Finals were down, but that was mainly because it was foregone conclusion. The Western Conference Finals set ratings records.

It's because it's Detroit (great basketball town, fairly large city but not NY/LA/Chi/Boston/Houston) and San Antonio (another great basketball town, but one of the smallest markets in the NBA). 2002 was LA (Shaq, Kobe, Phil, and the 2nd-largest city in the US) and NJ (Kidd). The fact that we're even talking about ratings is why I hate the NBA. Everyone's so mad that no one's watching Detroit/San Antonio, and some wish there were marketable stars (Shaq, Wade, and to a lesser extent, Nash) in the finals. Well the only way you can be sure to get those teams in there is to cheat! The teams that make the Finals make the Finals. People need to quit paying attention to the ratings or they really will think about fixing the games.

[OnWis97]

When both are going on, give me Central Florida/Utah State (or whoever) over Suns/Kings any day.

What, are you kidding me?

No.

The reason is I prefer the atmosphere of the college game. But I'll grant you that both games are meaningless.

But I do say: give me ANY conference game over ANY regular season NBA game. Northwestern/Penn State has more meaning than Lakers/Kings, in my mind. If for no other reason, the number of NBA regular-season games.

The difference for me is:

College: I can watch almost any conference game, no matter how little I care about the teams

NBA: I cannot watch a regular season game that does not involve the T-Wolves.

[nsentv]

No.

The reason is I prefer the atmosphere of the college game. But I'll grant you that both games are meaningless.

But I do say: give me ANY conference game over ANY regular season NBA game. Northwestern/Penn State has more meaning than Lakers/Kings, in my mind. If for no other reason, the number of NBA regular-season games.

The difference for me is:

College: I can watch almost any conference game, no matter how little I care about the teams

NBA: I cannot watch a regular season game that does not involve the T-Wolves.

We'll agree to disagree.

[infrared41]

Still, though, and I'd really be fascinated to know, how come nobody watched last year's Finals. With so many harping on fundamentals and team play, shouldn't Detroit-San Antonio have been one of the highest rated Finals ever? And, what about the Phoenix Suns? They were the highest scoring team in years. How come nobody followed them?

Once again, I can only speak for myself but to me it's not about fundamentals, defense and team play. It's about basketball that's fun to watch. The Showtime Lakers were a blast to watch on TV. The NBA game had speed and flow to it back then. Many teams tried to do what the Lakers did. Houston and "the Twin Towers" were fun to watch. Denver would score 125 and lose on a regular basis. Boston (as much as I hated them) was fun to watch.

It was fast breaks and passing in the 80's. Believe it or not, a great pass would make sportscenter back then. And I'm not talking about some Gene Hackman Hoosiers/Princeton bounce pass. I'm talking about a Magic no look to Byron Scott or Michael Cooper. This stuff was happening all over the league and it was just a joy to watch. Guys would shoot 12-18 foot jumpers and even better they would actually hit them. Play in the paint didn't look like something from the WWE. The game was indeed "FANtastic" in the 80's.

There are occasional flashes of that type of game these days but not near enough to keep my interest.

[EagleFan344]

I think its 2nd behind NFL.

[ROCHitman]

It was fast breaks and passing in the 80's. Believe it or not, a great pass would make sportscenter back then. And I'm not talking about some Gene Hackman Hoosiers/Princeton bounce pass. I'm talking about a Magic no look to Byron Scott or Michael Cooper. This stuff was happening all over the league and it was just a joy to watch. Guys would shoot 12-18 foot jumpers and even better they would actually hit them. Play in the paint didn't look like something from the WWE. The game was indeed "FANtastic" in the 80's.

Does this mean Jason Williams is GOOD for the NBA?

I think many would label him thugish, but boy, he can make a pretty pass!

BTW, nsentv, this was a great topic for you to announce your arrival on this site.

[twi]

Do a lot of people really hate the NBA, or just not care about it? I don't think it makes for entertaining television, and I have no pro team to support, so that probably influences my decision. At least in my case, it's apathy rather than hatred.

[HedleyLamarr]

Still, though, and I'd really be fascinated to know, how come nobody watched last year's Finals. With so many harping on fundamentals and team play, shouldn't Detroit-San Antonio have been one of the highest rated Finals ever? And, what about the Phoenix Suns? They were the highest scoring team in years. How come nobody followed them?

Also, what part does ABC play in all this? In 2002, the last year the NBA was on NBC, the league saw its highest playoff ratings in years. The Finals were down, but that was mainly because it was foregone conclusion. The Western Conference Finals set ratings records.

What happened between 2002 and now? Because the NBA wasn't struggling like this back then. It couldn't have been the Kobe trial, because that happened AFTER the lowest rated Finals in history. It couldn't have been the brawl, because that's too recent and this problem started well before that. For the league to have lost so much interest so drastically, I think a part of it might be the television network.

I worked at each Hawks home game this year. I also work for the Thrashers.

Aside from the local product on the court, there is no high-paced flow to the game like there was before. Too much one-on-one play and the other 8 guys just standing around. Too many ticky-tack fouls. The quality of the average player is so terrible that it's simply hard to watch. The games are getting boring and monotonous in person, not to mention ticket prices seeming to go up each year. How can you expect fans to watch these slow, boring games on TV, much less attend them?