Cleveland Super Bowl logo

[leopard88]

Leopard-I believe I read somewhere that that particular Browns team was more along the lines of an AAFC all-star team in the terms of its makeup. (I could be wrong, though.)  In terms of which league was better-the fact that the Browns were so incredibly dominant through the AAFC's existence hurts the league-a better league would probably have been more competitive.

To my understanding, the key members of that team were all holdovers from the team's AAFC years (Otto Graham, Marion Motley, Dub Jones, Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie, Lou Groza, for example), and not part of an all star team cobbled together to take on the NFL. I could be wrong, however, so anyone can feel free to set the record straight.

I agree that their dominance does not speak well for the overall level of competition in the AAFC. My point was just that their ability to win immediately in the NFL suggests that the AAFC titles were not solely the byproduct of weak competition, assuming that that may have played a role at all.

[02Rover]

Very nice. Great representation of Browns fans

Cleveland Brownsno championships

Baltimore Ravens

AAFC/NFL championships: 8; 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1954, 1955, 1964, Super Bowl XXXV

Pittsburgh Steelers

NFL Championships: 5, all Super Bowl wins, 6 appearances in all; IX (1974), X (1975), XIII (1978), XIV (1979), XL (2006).

*Thanks to the Sports E-cyclopedia

So the Ravens franchise has 9 League titles, one of them a Super Bowl.  The Steelers have 5 League titles, all of them Super Bowls.

Here... corrected that for you.

Leopard-I believe I read somewhere that that particular Browns team was more along the lines of an AAFC all-star team in the terms of its makeup.

Ummmm, no. Nice try though.....

Without the league agreeing to stripping the Ravens of the Browns name, colors and history (all of which Modell desparately wanted to keep, regardless of how he paints it now) , the city of Cleveland would not have agreed to drop the lawsuit forcing the team to play out its legal lease with the city and stadium and there would be no Baltimore Ravens, ever.

The team would have been forced to stay here, albiet under bad conditions, and likely would have been sold to a local owner thus pushing Modell out sooner than he actually ran himself off.

As for the AAFC All-Star stuff, thats about as true and credible as your little tally of teams and titles won.

Way to go, dolt!

[leopard88]

Way to go, dolt!

Necessary?

[Coast2CoastAM2006]

As for some reasoned debate-I seem to notice that the fans from the cold weather outdoor NFL cities are the ones that want cold weather Super Bowls (because that would, of course, benefit their teams.) I personally am happy with the Super Bowl being restricted to warm weather/indoor locales. It levels the playing field for the teams playing. I know I would be quite unhappy if I was say, a San Diego fan and saw them play in the Super Bowl in New York say.

(Note, if you are a fan of a warm weather/indoor team and feel that we should see a cold weather Super Bowl, feel free to correct me).

i don't follow any cold weather teams but i'd like to see a sb in a cold weather city.

[andrewharrington]

The Browns were pretty good back in their day. The Browns were the best expansion team. Ever. Hands down. They won the first and only four AAFC Championships, then moved to the NFL, where they played in the NFL Championship game 7 of their first 8 seasons, winning three of them during that span.

Do a little arithmetic, and you should find that the Browns won 7 league championships in their first 12 years of existence, playing in every championship game but one. That's what we call domination. They had a pretty darn good hall of fame quarterback for the beginning of that run, and a guy known to many as "the greatest running back of all time" toward the end of it.

[raz]

The Browns were pretty good back in their day. The Browns were the best expansion team. Ever. Hands down.

Nope, Browns were not an expansion team, they were a start-up, along with the other AAFC members.

Best expansion? In terms of what?

Championships? Cowboys were a true expansion team, and they've won 5 Super Bowls and 8 NFC championships.

Immediate success? Panthers won 7 games their first year out (a record) and won their division the second year. They also played in the NFC Championship game that year.

[andrewharrington]

Any team that is a "start up" team is also an expansion team, by the definition of the word expansion. By "starting up," they expanded upon they league they joined. The definition of "expansion team" as we know it today didn't exist, because the franchise system wasn't quite the same in the 1940s and 1950s as it is today. And yes, the Browns resume in their first years of existence beats that of the Panthers, and their overall resume beats that of the Cowboys, in my opinion.

[jab8281965]

Technically, the AAFC was merged into the NFL, much like the ABA was merged into the NBA.

From wikipedia..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAFC

Now, it's been well documented that the ABA teams were referred to as "expansion" teams by the NBA, probably to belittle them, but I'm not sure the AAFC teams were referred to by the NFL as "Expansion" teams.

[raz]

Any team that is a "start up" team is also an expansion team, by the definition of the word expansion. By "starting up," they expanded upon they league they joined.

Now you're just getting silly.

You can't "expand" a league that hasn't played. The teams that start with the league are all startups. Otherwise, by your definition, ALL teams are "expansion" teams, in that they "expanded" the league.

If we use your definition, the Packers win, having 12 NFL championships!

[IceCap]

The AAFC? Please. The Browns were the only real team in that leauge. My high school football team could have won the AAFC title. If you honestlty want to put an AAFC title on the same level as an NFL title, then you're grasping at straws to try and embelsih the Browns history. Hey look, 4 NFL titles. That's pretty good, a lot for the Browns to hang their hats on. You don't need to bring up 4 titles from an inferior leauge.

Comparing an AAFC to an NFL title is like comparing the AHL Calder Cup to the Stanley Cup. Just not at the same level.

You need a history lesson there, junior. After WWII, the NFL and AAFC were pretty much on an equal footing, with many if not most considering the AAFC the better league by 1948-49.

The Football HOF recognizes only two NFL competitors with special areas dedicated to the league's histories. The first is the AFL of the 1960's. The other? The AAFC. If they consider the AAFC good enough to merit its own section in the HOF, I think it should be considered the equal of the NFL same as the AFL is.

The AAFC consisted of one NFL calibour team: The Browns. Everyone else was basically a high school team. The only reason the NFL granted the AAFC its own HOF was because the Browns made fools out of the NFL leuage champs upon entering the NFL. The 4 NFL titles the Browns won is pretty impressive, and probablly would have won more if they had started play in the NFL as oposed to the AAFC. Still dosn't change the fact that the Browns were a big fish in a small pond for the AAFC's four seasons. Beating up on the rest of the weak AAFC teams is hardly the same as winning the NFL champinship.

Oh, and I agree with rams80. As far as I'm concerned the Cleveland Browns became the Baltimore Ravens, and the new Cleveland team is an expansion team. Modell was robbed of his team's identity and history, and I don't buy the NFL's garbage about the current Browns keeping the old Browns history. Just wrong if you ask me.

So by my count it's the Ravens with 4 AAFC titles, 4 pre-SB NFL titles, and Super Bowl XXXV, giving them a total of 9 titles (if you must include the AAFC wins). The current Cleveland Browns have a total of ONE playoff appereance. That ended in a loss to the Steelers.

Oh, and technically the Jaguars have the best winning % of any NFL expansion team (all though with the Panthers current success that may have changed).

[brinkeguthrie]

an outdoor stadium in jan/feb, near the lake?

never. EVER.

people arent paying all that money for tix to be frozen solid.

[andrewharrington]

Any team that is a "start up" team is also an expansion team, by the definition of the word expansion. By "starting up," they expanded upon they league they joined.

Now you're just getting silly.

You can't "expand" a league that hasn't played. The teams that start with the league are all startups. Otherwise, by your definition, ALL teams are "expansion" teams, in that they "expanded" the league.

If we use your definition, the Packers win, having 12 NFL championships!

This is a ridiculous argument you started. The Browns won more championships than they lost in their first 12 years of existence, and played in all the championship games except one. They have had the best start of any football franchise. That's the point. Goodnight, sir.

people arent paying all that money for tix to be frozen solid.

Real football fans sure would. Corporate slugs might not pay to freeze, but oh well. It would open up some seats and give Blue Collar Jim a sliver of a chance chance to see his team play in the championship game, instead of making the Super Bowl an even more ridiculous office party vacation.

[raz]

This is a ridiculous argument you started. ... They have had the best start of any football franchise. That's the point. Goodnight, sir.

That's not what you said. You said they the were the best EXPANSION team ever. Wrong, they were never an expansion team. That was my point. No argument from me over their great start, but calling them "expansion" is lumping them in the wrong category.

OK, I'm done now! G'night!

[andrewharrington]

Except in 1999. They were an expansion team that year, but they didn't have quite the illustrious start they did in 1946.