The Pirates in the bottom

[tBBP]

Damn, Mac...you had to mention Century III Mall, didn't you??? Brotha already homesick as is...and you go and mention the name of the mall that was practically right ouside the back door of my apartment!

Well, I could'a mentioned Sewickley or Sto-Rox, but thought I'd show that even 15 years removed from the area, I still have some game when it comes to remembering places.

Ehh...don't fool with nothing that far up 65. Hell...I rarely fool with anything north of the Allegheny! Now had you mentioned Homestead, North Braddock, West Mifflin, or 885, then you'da really been in the house.

Oh--and um, I don't know when the last time you was down in Clairton, but um uh...that mall, just since I've been there in '03, is a shell of it's former self now.

Back on topic...yeah the Pirates are a joke. But...I guess as long as people keep buying the bobbleheads and going to the Fireworks Nights and whatnot, the team's heads are gon' continue to make their money, I suppose.

[Mac the Knife]

Back on topic...yeah the Pirates are a joke. But...I guess as long as people keep buying the bobbleheads and going to the Fireworks Nights and whatnot, the team's heads are gon' continue to make their money, I suppose.

Funny you mention that. Take a look at their 2009 schedule, particularly the giveaway days. There's some sort of giveaway going on for just about every home stand. Sadly, fans buy into them, settling for baubles instead of substantive, competitive play on the field.

[The_Admiral]

If fans don't come to games, that's not going to inspire the Pirates' ownership to field a better team. It'll just mean they have less income with which to field a better team. I'm trying to think of notable instances where idle turnstiles directly led to better play and I'm coming up empty. If anyone else can cite some cases of this strange voodoo economics, please list them.

I know there have been cases where teams with poor attendance have gotten good, but not due to some direct causal relationship to fans not coming. Usually in baseball and hockey, you have lousy teams who quietly stock their farm systems during the bad years, and when the talent makes it to the big team, the fans come back to watch. This is the work of a prudent and patient front office and development department, not the result of a fan boycott.

[BaltimoreFan]

If fans don't come to games, that's not going to inspire the Pirates' ownership to field a better team. It'll just mean they have less income with which to field a better team. I'm trying to think of notable instances where idle turnstiles directly led to better play and I'm coming up empty. If anyone else can cite some cases of this strange voodoo economics, please list them.

I know there have been cases where teams with poor attendance have gotten good, but not due to some direct causal relationship to fans not coming. Usually in baseball and hockey, you have lousy teams who quietly stock their farm systems during the bad years, and when the talent makes it to the big team, the fans come back to watch. This is the work of a prudent and patient front office and development department, not the result of a fan boycott.

Yea, I don't think a fan boycott would ever really work. The only message it sends is that the city doesn't care, and some owners may use it to move the team.

At the end of 2006, a local radio station in Baltimore did a fan protest. They had people buy upper deck tickets for a random day game in September. They all cheered very loud during the game and then walked out at 5:08 (for Brooks and Cal). The protest got alot of coverage from local news stations who actually joined it live. Since then the O's have made alot of changes for the better (Angelos got a new GM that he seems to have given freedom, they put Baltimore back on the road uniforms, had a Ravens rally, etc.). While there is no proof, that the protest lead to the changes, I think it did send a message to Angelos. Personally I think its better than a boycott, which just shows apathy. A protest at least shows support for the team (they had to buy tickets to participate).

[The_Admiral]

Giving Andy MacPhail freedom as a GM isn't a change for the better. That's why the Cubs fired him from his GM spot and eventually his presidency, changing for the better in both positions. That being said, unless Angelos is so secluded inside his warehouse or wherever that he pisses in a mason jar to avoid leaving his office, I think he was pretty well aware that his organization was on the downturn before a radio station did a stunt.

Fans boycotted the Blackhawks when they appeared to be a lousy organization with no hope in sight. You know what happened? They got worse. And worse. Then the owner died and his son purged the crap out of the organization at the same time that the kids were ready to play. So unless the Pirates have been drafting well while waiting for the owner to die, I don't see this "fan boycott" working.

[Camden Crazy]

Giving Andy MacPhail freedom as a GM isn't a change for the better. That's why the Cubs fired him from his GM spot and eventually his presidency, changing for the better in both positions. That being said, unless Angelos is so secluded inside his warehouse or wherever that he pisses in a mason jar to avoid leaving his office, I think he was pretty well aware that his organization was on the downturn before a radio station did a stunt.

He won two World Series with the Twins and nearly made another World Series with the Cubs. Anyone that can get the Cubs near the World Series is good in my book.

Not to mention he worked out one of the biggest rapejobs of all time (see: Erik Bedard trade).

[BJ Sands]

Giving Andy MacPhail freedom as a GM isn't a change for the better. That's why the Cubs fired him from his GM spot and eventually his presidency, changing for the better in both positions. That being said, unless Angelos is so secluded inside his warehouse or wherever that he pisses in a mason jar to avoid leaving his office, I think he was pretty well aware that his organization was on the downturn before a radio station did a stunt.

MacPhail actually stepped down so Jim Hendry could take over. He wasn't fired from the GM job. He and Hendry built the '03 and '04 teams which completely changed the culture around the Cubs.

But yes, he was a Phailure.

[BaltimoreFan]

That being said, unless Angelos is so secluded inside his warehouse or wherever that he pisses in a mason jar to avoid leaving his office, I think he was pretty well aware that his organization was on the downturn before a radio station did a stunt.

The fan protest got alot of local media attention. It was the top story on the local news and the had live coverage at 5:08 when fans starting walking out. This was in late September, when the O's are forgotten about and the Ravens become all the sports news. I think it was a real shot at Angelos' ego. He seemed to think he was doing a good job. I think it may have been a reality check to him, that his legacy in Baltimore was not going to be good. Yes, I know most people already realized this, but I dont think he really did at the time. It may just be a coincidence, but 9 monthes later Perlozzo was fired midseason and MacPhail was brought in to take over. Who has already succeed all previous GMs in Baltimore since Gillick left. He's gotten alot of young talent in here, and has been willing to take risks with high upside (Felix Pie, Rich Hill).

Anyway, my whole point was an event like that is better than a complete boycott. Even if it has little impact, it sends the message that the fans still care and want change.

[buildingmaint]

Being 42 , and a Bucs fan for most of my remember able life , this form of a baseball team is disheartening to say the very least . But if you look at it from a PURE BUSINESS look it makes lots of sense . They make lots of money and spend very little . They are a success in the Business world . As a fan it sucks . But look at it this way . You make a product, a widget , its not very good , falls apart , not pretty, in other words it sucks . It costs you $ 1.00 to make it , and you sell it for $ 10.00, a $ 9.00 profit . You could make it better , more reliable , and pretty , but it would cost you $6.00 to make , a profit of $ 4.00 . What would you do ?

[The_Admiral]

Yeah, all I can say is that the Pirates need to invest in scouting and development, because you'll get a much bigger ROI on those than you would with free agents. Lots of people want the Buccos to sign free agents "to show they're committed to winning" or some nonsense. Free agents are always risky investments, though! Drafting teams control their players for their most productive years. In almost all cases, by the time a ballplayer reaches unrestricted free agency, their best years are behind them. That's not to say that signing free agents is a pointless endeavor, but relative to their years under team control, they're never going to be worth the money. You could "show you're committed" by paying $25 million for a year of Manny Ramirez, or you could allocate $25 million into building an assembly line for cheap and high-quality talent that will pay dividends for years to come. As great as this would be for the Pirates, imagine what it could do for the Chicago Cubs: they've had the wherewithal to do anything they want, but never in their history have they had a real honest-to-goodness crank-em-out-and-plug-em-in farm system like The Oriole Way, the Braves divisional dynasty, the Expos, or the modern Twins, and that's why they'll never win anything until they can put their money into drafting, scouting, and teaching, you know, the things that make a baseball organization an Organization, not a television station's programming department.

The uniquely problem here is that I'm pretty sure the Pirates ownership doesn't want to put any money anywhere, and I don't think there's a solution for that other than to go shopping for a new baseball cap.

[Viper]

Being 42 , and a Bucs fan for most of my remember able life , this form of a baseball team is disheartening to say the very least . But if you look at it from a PURE BUSINESS look it makes lots of sense . They make lots of money and spend very little . They are a success in the Business world . As a fan it sucks . But look at it this way . You make a product, a widget , its not very good , falls apart , not pretty, in other words it sucks . It costs you $ 1.00 to make it , and you sell it for $ 10.00, a $ 9.00 profit . You could make it better , more reliable , and pretty , but it would cost you $6.00 to make , a profit of $ 4.00 . What would you do ?

I'm not sure that's the best analogy. With the widgets, making them better means not only a smaller profit margin per unit sold, but also fewer units sold (because people wouldn't have to replace their old ones nearly as often). All else being equal, surely a baseball team wouldn't lose paying customers as it got better... right?

[BaltimoreFan]

Being 42 , and a Bucs fan for most of my remember able life , this form of a baseball team is disheartening to say the very least . But if you look at it from a PURE BUSINESS look it makes lots of sense . They make lots of money and spend very little . They are a success in the Business world . As a fan it sucks . But look at it this way . You make a product, a widget , its not very good , falls apart , not pretty, in other words it sucks . It costs you $ 1.00 to make it , and you sell it for $ 10.00, a $ 9.00 profit . You could make it better , more reliable , and pretty , but it would cost you $6.00 to make , a profit of $ 4.00 . What would you do ?

I'm not sure that's the best analogy. With the widgets, making them better means not only a smaller profit margin per unit sold, but also fewer units sold (because people wouldn't have to replace their old ones nearly as often). All else being equal, surely a baseball team wouldn't lose paying customers as it got better... right?

Yes in a way. You've really got to look at the demand in the given area. The Yankees can afford to spend what seems like an unlimited amount of money because they are in the #1 media market and are the most recognizable team in baseball. They will always sell out and sell merchandise. Not every team has that luxury. Alot of fan's complain about the Marlins small payroll, but I really think they can't afford a much higher one. Fans in Miami just don't show up for sports games, even when the teams are winning. At least they try to compensate for the lower payroll by using it on good young talent.

[Mac the Knife]

Yea, I don't think a fan boycott would ever really work. The only message it sends is that the city doesn't care, and some owners may use it to move the team.

At the end of 2006, a local radio station in Baltimore did a fan protest. They had people buy upper deck tickets for a random day game in September. They all cheered very loud during the game and then walked out at 5:08 (for Brooks and Cal). The protest got alot of coverage from local news stations who actually joined it live. Since then the O's have made alot of changes for the better (Angelos got a new GM that he seems to have given freedom, they put Baltimore back on the road uniforms, had a Ravens rally, etc.). While there is no proof, that the protest lead to the changes, I think it did send a message to Angelos. Personally I think its better than a boycott, which just shows apathy. A protest at least shows support for the team (they had to buy tickets to participate).

First the Pirates aren't moving no matter what; the lease for their new stadium is pretty ironclad in that regard, so moving isn't an option. But I digress...

A boycott would IF it were well enough organized, and self-promoted well. Have each person who's part of the boycott wear a badge or button everywhere that says, "Boycotting the Bucs," or some spiffy slogan. Put the word out to KDKA, WTAE, WPXI, etc.; they love covering stuff like that. Start some momentum rolling and then keep it going - and keep emphasizing that buying a Pirate hat or jacket, going to a game, frequenting club sponsors, etc., will be counter-productive.

The O's protest was a good thing because it embarrassed the out of Angelos. The Pirates however are in a different situation in that their ownership historically hasn't been embarrassed at putting out a lousy on-field product. Shaming them into it won't work. Showing them that it's going to start impacting their profit margins, however, would.

[Mac the Knife]

Yeah, all I can say is that the Pirates need to invest in scouting and development, because you'll get a much bigger ROI on those than you would with free agents. Lots of people want the Buccos to sign free agents "to show they're committed to winning" or some nonsense.

The only problem with this is that every time Pittsburgh actually develops a talented player in their own system, they deal him off. They've done it at least a half dozen times that I can think of, and I guarantee you if some young gun shows some mettel in 2009, he'll be out of Pittsburgh come the trade deadline. And Pirates fans have heard the "we're developing from within" bull so much that they've tuned it out. Committed to winning - now and later - is the only way they're really going to get fans back.

[Maz]

Bucs fans tried a walkout. A few times......

fail.

Now, if it was a huge walkout. Like, a near sellout where every fan walks out, with banners, t-shirts, slogans, and all other kinds of protest regalia, it might work.

At this point, to get to the Pirates' owners' heads, a darn near revolution, not a protest, would be needed.

[tp49]

Yeah, all I can say is that the Pirates need to invest in scouting and development, because you'll get a much bigger ROI on those than you would with free agents. Lots of people want the Buccos to sign free agents "to show they're committed to winning" or some nonsense.

The only problem with this is that every time Pittsburgh actually develops a talented player in their own system, they deal him off. They've done it at least a half dozen times that I can think of, and I guarantee you if some young gun shows some mettel in 2009, he'll be out of Pittsburgh come the trade deadline. And Pirates fans have heard the "we're developing from within" bull so much that they've tuned it out. Committed to winning - now and later - is the only way they're really going to get fans back.

The Tampa Bay formula would probably work wonderfully in Pittsburgh. So long as the ownership was committed to scouting and player development and then locking up their good young players early with long term deals at a considerably lower price. The problem is that Pirates ownership seems content to just pocket whatever profits they're making. I understand that in Pittsburgh there isn't the revenue that teams like the Yankees have but the system the Yankees have wouldn't work for everyone. In fact I'd like to see them move more towards in house player development. However, the one thing they do is reinvest their profits back into the team to improve their product. If the Pirates would work more towards reinvesting in themselves and solidifying their young talent and locking them up they could be competitive.

It's sad, really sad. The first ever baseball game I went to was in 1980 at McKechnie Field in Bradenton for a Pirates/Reds Spring Training game. I met Willie Stargell that day as a young child and that encounter ensured I was a baseball fan for life. Willie Stargell was my idol for years and because of him I always held a special place for the Pirates. The organization now is just a shell of what they once were.

[zoneranger]

This record breaking string of futility by the Bucs calls for a logo!!

[Mac the Knife]

Willie Stargell was my idol for years and because of him I always held a special place for the Pirates. The organization now is just a shell of what they once were.

Mine as well. True story: I never cried when I learned my father died, but I wept like a baby when Willie Stargell did.

[ElwoodCuse]

If the Pirates spent money they'd be the Orioles. Money can't fix idiocy. Granted there's no more Cam Bonifay or Dave Littlefield but the stupidity has to stop.