Canadiens Knockoff Crusade

[walby2]

^ Good for the Canadiens. If I were in their shoes I'd also try to stamp out counterfeiting. But if you produce a cheap-to-make and easy-to-fake yet high-priced item, don't be shocked if those profit margins seduce counterfeiters into knocking off their jerseys. And I for one don't blame the counterfeiters.

You want to eliminate the economic basis for counterfeiting? Make the jersey somehow worth the price you charge for it, or lower your prices. Or just learn to live with the counterfeiting (which is basically what the NHL is doing given their resistance to the two other approaches).

Oh hey, Ice_Cap, how much are you paying Hasbro for the rights to use the Transformers logo as your avatar? Is it a pay-per-post deal? Or is that kind of intellectual property theft kosher in your world?

[Gothamite]

^ Good for the Canadiens. If I were in their shoes I'd also try to stamp out counterfeiting. But if you produce a cheap-to-make and easy-to-fake yet high-priced item, don't be shocked if those profit margins seduce counterfeiters into knocking off their jerseys. And I for one don't blame the counterfeiters.

And that's the difference between our positions. I do. They're criminals.

Oh hey, Ice_Cap, how much are you paying Hasbro for the rights to use the Transformers logo as your avatar? Is it a pay-per-post deal? Or is that kind of intellectual property theft kosher in your world?

Icecap, you find a way to make money off our avatars, and didn't tell me?

Because unless he is, walby2, your comparison falls apart instantly.

[walby2]

Icecap, you find a way to make money off our avatars, and didn't tell me?

Because unless he is, walby2, your comparison falls apart instantly.

Nope.

From http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-definitions.html

What is copyright infringement?

As a general matter, copyright infringement occurs when a copyrighted work is reproduced, distributed, performed, publicly displayed, or made into a derivative work without the permission of the copyright owner.

You don't have to make money on copyright infringement to break the law.

[BBTV]

Not necessarily. Again, I really think you guys are taking his argument the wrong way. "Not blaming" != "endorsing". It's basically a difference between a realistic outlook and an idealistic outlook. Most of us (including me) tend to look at things from an ideal point of view, but with counterfeiting, it's one of those things that shouldn't happen, but always will happen, so businesses must factor the illegal competition into their business plans. I don't know who whis walby guy is, but I think that's basically the whole argument, and you guys (Ice and Goth) may be misinterpreting a little bit.

As for the avatar argument, if the logo was licensed for certain uses, and one of those uses wasn't "non-commercial use as avatar on public message board", then technically, wouldn't it be wrong? I really don'tk now the answer, so that's not a rhetorical question.

[walby2]

Again, BringBackTheVet has a clear understanding of what I'm saying, and I thank you for articulating my points. I do not endorse counterfeiting. I do not own counterfeit NHL jerseys. However, I regard those things as an inevitable outcome of the business practices of the people who make and market NHL jerseys.

It is not enough to just plug your ears and scream "COUNTERFEITING IS ILLEGAL LA LA LA LA LA LA" at the top of your lungs. Chinese gangsters are not going to listen to arguments about the finer points of North American intellectual property law, no matter how forceful Ice_Cap's points may be. They understand the law of economics, and that's how this matter will be solved (together with improved enforcement in North American ports, but that's another issue).

As for the point re: avatars, I am not trying to digress, but merely illustrating the fact that not everyone is 100 per cent compliant with all aspects of intellectual property law. Even the self-appointed defender of intellectual property rights has no problem appropriating someone else's property whenever it suits him or her (unless he or she has owns the rights to that image or has permission from the owner, in which case I take back what I said).

[IceCap]

^ Good for the Canadiens. If I were in their shoes I'd also try to stamp out counterfeiting. But if you produce a cheap-to-make and easy-to-fake yet high-priced item, don't be shocked if those profit margins seduce counterfeiters into knocking off their jerseys. And I for one don't blame the counterfeiters.

And that's the difference between our positions. I do. They're criminals.

Exactly. They're breaking the law.

Oh hey, Ice_Cap, how much are you paying Hasbro for the rights to use the Transformers logo as your avatar? Is it a pay-per-post deal? Or is that kind of intellectual property theft kosher in your world?

Icecap, you find a way to make money off our avatars, and didn't tell me?

Because unless he is, walby2, your comparison falls apart instantly.

Confoundit! My illegal Ice_Cap profile t-shirt operation has been uncovered!

[Gothamite]

It is not enough to just plug your ears and scream "COUNTERFEITING IS ILLEGAL LA LA LA LA LA LA" at the top of your lungs. Chinese gangsters are not going to listen to arguments about the finer points of North American intellectual property law, no matter how forceful Ice_Cap's points may be. They understand the law of economics, and that's how this matter will be solved (together with improved enforcement in North American ports, but that's another issue).

But isn't part of how the problem will be solved involved educating the customers, so that nobody unknowingly purchases a counterfeit?

[walby2]

But isn't part of how the problem will be solved involved educating the customers, so that nobody unknowingly purchases a counterfeit?

It should be done for sure, but it will only work to a point. The people who are being misled into buying counterfeits will find that information useful. However, the people who don't care whether they are buying counterfeits so long as they get a deal won't heed the Canadiens' advice. You will only get so far with the legal argument... the reality of it is that a lot of people out there don't really care, for better or for worse.

Confoundit! My illegal Ice_Cap profile t-shirt operation has been uncovered!

Funny how all of a sudden copyright infringement has become just a game. What happened to all the "get tough" talk? Or does that only apply to other people engaging in unlawful activity and not to you?

[IceCap]

Again, BringBackTheVet has a clear understanding of what I'm saying, and I thank you for articulating my points. I do not endorse counterfeiting. I do not own counterfeit NHL jerseys. However, I regard those things as an inevitable outcome of the business practices of the people who make and market NHL jerseys.

Well that's a rather broad position to take isn't it? Hell, by your line of thinking why should we waste money on a police force at all? After all crime is the inevitable outcome of organized society.

You're position is shaky at best. You claim that you're just being pragmatic about things, but at the same time you're calling for days of reckoning for the big bad corporations and you're saying you don't blame counterfeiters for making affordable jerseys available to the masses. BBTV's giving you the benefit of the doubt. From where I'm standing you're just trying to justify the theft of intellectual property out of some misguided pseudo-populist outlook.

It is not enough to just plug your ears and scream "COUNTERFEITING IS ILLEGAL LA LA LA LA LA LA" at the top of your lungs. Chinese gangsters are not going to listen to arguments about the finer points of North American intellectual property law, no matter how forceful Ice_Cap's points may be. They understand the law of economics, and that's how this matter will be solved (together with improved enforcement in North American ports, but that's another issue).

You're really starting to wear thin. I'm not so full of myself to think that my opinions on a sports logos message board will convince anyone on the counterfeiting end of things one way or another. I'm just stating the very plain and obvious fact that so many here seem to have overlooked; that the organization that is the Montreal Canadiens Hockey Club has the right, and in some ways the responsibility, to protect their copyrights and brand.

If you want to blame the high prices of authentics for counterfeits then blame the vast majority of the consumer base for being willing to buy authentics at the prices the league, clubs, and Rebook set.

As for the point re: avatars, I am not trying to digress,

Yes, you are.

but merely illustrating the fact that not everyone is 100 per cent compliant with all aspects of intellectual property law. Even the self-appointed defender of intellectual property rights has no problem appropriating someone else's property whenever it suits him or her (unless he or she has owns the rights to that image or has permission from the owner, in which case I take back what I said).

I'm sorry, did I sleep walk last night and make a post claiming i was the self-appointed defender of intellectual property rights? I don't think so.

Your whole argument that I'm somehow a hypocrite for using the Decepticon logo as my avatar image is, well, absurd. First it's an intellectually cheap argument. You have to resort to taking pot shots at me because your own position is lacking.

Secondly I'm not making any profit off my use of the 'Con logo in my avatar. As for simply displaying it being in violation of copyright law, I point your attention to, well, every message board on the face of the planet. This very site, under the Avatar option in your profile management screen, has a large selection of MLB and NHL logos available to use. Many other people here use the logos of their favourite teams, or even images taken from tv shows, as avatars. And what's found here is prevalent all over. BBTV and Goth are just as guilty as I am if your interpretation is correct.

Is almost every user ever to create a forum profile on the face of the planet in violation of intellectual property law? I would argue that a precedent has been set that states, no, they aren't.

I mean by your logic everyone here who's every used their favourite team's logo or posted a concept is in violation of intellectual property law. It seems like you're stretching guy.

Confoundit! My illegal Ice_Cap profile t-shirt operation has been uncovered!

Funny how all of a sudden copyright infringement has become just a game. What happened to all the "get tough" talk? Or does that only apply to other people engaging in unlawful activity and not to you?

It's called humour. In this case I used it in response to the sheer ludicrousness of your attempt to divert the conversation by claiming almost every forum user on the planet is in violation of intellectual property laws.

What exactly is your problem anyway? Did a jersey counterfeiter save your dog from drowning?

[walby2]

You're position is shaky at best. You claim that you're just being pragmatic about things, but at the same time you're calling for days of reckoning for the big bad corporations and you're saying you don't blame counterfeiters for making affordable jerseys available to the masses. BBTV's giving you the benefit of the doubt. From where I'm standing you're just trying to justify the theft of intellectual property out of some misguided pseudo-populist outlook.

It's an explanation of cause and effect. If you want to take that as justification of theft (despite the fact that I agree it's illegal), then fill your boots.

You're really starting to wear thin. I'm not so full of myself to think that my opinions on a sports logos message board will convince anyone on the counterfeiting end of things one way or another. I'm just stating the very plain and obvious fact that so many here seem to have overlooked; that the organization that is the Montreal Canadiens Hockey Club have the right, and in some ways the responsibility, to protect their copyrights and brand.

If you want to blame the high prices of authentics for counterfeits then blame the vast majority of the consumer base for being willing to buy authentics at the prices the league, clubs, and Rebook set.

Hey, I agree with you. The Canadiens have a right to try to protect their trademarks, but setting up their anti-counterfeit website is not going to fix the problem on its own.

I'm sorry, did I sleep walk last night and make a post claiming i was the self-appointed defender of intellectual property rights? I don't think so.

Your whole argument that I'm somehow a hypocrite for using the Decepticon logo as my avatar image is, well, absurd. First it's an intellectually cheap argument. You have to resort to taking pot shots at me because your own position is lacking.

Secondly I'm not making any profit off my use of the 'Con logo in my avatar. As for simply displaying it being in violation of copyright law, I point your attention to, well, every message board on the face of the planet. This very site, under the Avatar option in your profile management screen, has a large selection of MLB and NHL logos available to use. Many other people here use the logos of their favourite teams, or even images taken from tv shows, as avatars. And what's found here is prevalent all over. BBTV and Goth are just as guilty as I am if your interpretation is correct.

Is almost every user ever to create a forum profile on the face of the planet in violation of intellectual property law? I would argue that a precedent has been set that states, no, they aren't.

LOL ... so many wrongs make a right now, huh?

When did I ever say avatars are unlawful? You can use a picture of yourself or a drawing you created as an avatar. Using a logo such as a transformer head without permission is copyright infringement whether you like it or not, simple as that. It obviously isn't worth it for Hasbro to come after you, but they would certainly have the right to if they decided that they wanted to crack down on illegal use of their trademarks.

For someone who wants everyone to put intellectual property rights on a pedestal, you don't seem to have very much regard for them yourself!

[Gothamite]

Your argument might hold water if Viacom didn't actively make the Transformers logos available for download as buddy icons and the like as part of their marketing technique. Not only is he not stealing it, Icecap is using the logo exactly as the copyright owners intend him to.

Hey, I agree with you. The Canadiens have a right to try to protect their trademarks, but setting up their anti-counterfeit website is not going to fix the problem on its own.

Again, I don't know anyone who thinks it will. But it is part of the solution.

[IceCap]

Hey, I agree with you. The Canadiens have a right to try to protect their trademarks, but setting up their anti-counterfeit website is not going to fix the problem on its own.

And what would you suggest they do? Lower the prices of the actual product? Yeah that sounds nice and egalitarian, but it's not going to happen, nor should it.

Simple law of economics. If enough people are willing to pay $300 for an authentic sweater, then why lower the price? They're not having a problem moving authentics for $300. It wouldn't make much sense to sell it for less since there's no market pressure to do so.

Secondly, as has been mentioned before, tv revenue is almost non-existent for the NHL. Merchandise sales thus make up the bulk of a team's revenue. I have no idea where your claim of a sweater costing no more then $40 to make and ship comes from, but I'll grant it to you. The Canadiens as an organization thus make more of an overall product for the year if they sell the sweaters for $300 and make a $260 profit for each unit then if they sold them for $60 and only make a $20 profit for each unit. In a league without a substantial television deal merchandise sales have to be maximized.

LOL ... so many wrongs make a right now, huh?

When did I ever say avatars are unlawful? You can use a picture of yourself or a drawing you created as an avatar. Using a logo such as a transformer head without permission is copyright infringement whether you like it or not, simple as that. It obviously isn't worth it for Hasbro to come after you, but they would certainly have the right to if they decided that they wanted to crack down on illegal use of their trademarks.

I'll use the Royal Standard issue as an example. See, the Royal Standards of the realms of England and Scotland are technically the personal property of the Queen of Great Britain. According to the law no one may use them but her. Yet Royal Standards are flown almost as commonly as the national and sub-national flags by the populous. They're frequently flown at soccer games. Technically they shouldn't even be produced in such large numbers let alone flown by anyone who wants to. Yet it happens. Despite being illegal a cultural precedent has been set whereby the common use of the Standards is no longer an issue.

Likewise almost every single soul on a message board utilizes an image that could be considered the intellectual property of someone else. Are they in violation of the law? Only to those who want to cry "hypocrite" when their endorsement of intellectual theft is thrown out as the garbage it is.

In reality the fact that the use of intellectual property in forum avatars and signatures is so wide-spread that another cultural precedent has been set. No one's making money off of their use of such material for their signatures or avatars. So thus there's no reason for the holders of that copyright to go after the users.

Hasbro doesn't care that I'm using a 'Con emblem as my avatar. The Packers don't care that Goth's using a vintage logo of theirs. Nintendo doesn't care that BBTV is using a recreation of footage from one of their old classic games as his avatar. None of us are profiting off of their intellectual property.

So really the precedent has been set is that if the users are not profiting off their property then the holders of the copyright don't care. And if they don't care and choose not to go after the numerous people who have forum avatars then no crime has been committed.

Your attempt to compare someone using an image in an avatar, a use that yields no profit being made off of the intellectual property of others, and the production and selling of counterfeit jerseys is both extremely weak and a sad attempt to derail a discussion you were on the wrong side of.

For someone who wants everyone to put intellectual property rights on a pedestal, you don't seem to have very much regard for them yourself!

Again, you're wearing thin. I do have respect for the use of intellectual property rights, more so then you, apparently, and more so then even some self-described designers in this thread. You're the one stating you "don't blame the counterfeiters." You're the one calling for a "day of reckoning" for the corporations who hold intellectual copyrights like some wanna-be high school Che who just got yelled at by his AV teacher for illegally downloading the song American Idiot. So really, which one of us has a greater respect for intellectual property laws? I will grant you one thing, your attempt to turn the discussion around when you realized that things weren't going your way was well played.

As for my avatar, if Hasbro suddenly came out one day and said they were no longer going to tolerate images of their characters and their brands being used in forum sigs and avatars the world over then I would take mine down. And if the NHL decided to do the same I have no doubt that the majority of people here would comply, assuming they have a healthy respect for the law of the land. I'm sure Chris would remove his bank of NHL avatar choices as well from the site's profile options. We use these images because the entities that hold their copyrights don't mind them being used in such a superficial manner.

Again though, nice attempt at baiting. I'll give you that.

[walby2]

And what would you suggest they do? Lower the prices of the actual product? Yeah that sounds nice and egalitarian, but it's not going to happen, nor should it.

Simple law of economics. If enough people are willing to pay $300 for an authentic sweater, then why lower the price?

Hey, that is their right... just don't be surprised if some enterprising counterfeiter decides to cater to the market for $50 fake "authentic" sweaters which obviously exists out there.

You can jump on me all you want if you're upset that I am not feeling any sympathy for the Habs, NHL or Reebok (mostly because it's a calculated business decision designed to maximize profit and probably assumes some level of counterfeiting activity), but it won't change reality.

[Sport]

Not to get involved in the ethical debate over pirating music and whatnot, I was able to find a practical use for the Canadiens efforts. One of my roommates is from the Washington DC area so naturally he's a Capitals fan this month. His Ovechkin knockoff arrived today from Ebay. Before he purchased it I told him that a $40 Authentic is not an authentic, but he bought it anyway. I was able to show him using the Canadiens' counterfeit spotting tips that his jersey was a total knockoff.

Once I showed him the Habs website He then said, "most people aren't you and won't be able to tell the difference so I don't care". That sounds pretty familiar.

[gosioux76]

And what would you suggest they do? Lower the prices of the actual product? Yeah that sounds nice and egalitarian, but it's not going to happen, nor should it.

Simple law of economics. If enough people are willing to pay $300 for an authentic sweater, then why lower the price?

Hey, that is their right... just don't be surprised if some enterprising counterfeiter decides to cater to the market for $50 fake "authentic" sweaters which obviously exists out there.

You can jump on me all you want if you're upset that I am not feeling any sympathy for the Habs, NHL or Reebok (mostly because it's a calculated business decision designed to maximize profit and probably assumes some level of counterfeiting activity), but it won't change reality.

I'm with Walby on this argument. The only effective way to stamp out counterfeiting is to take out their reason for existence. And counterfeiters are only in business because they beat the authentics on price.

The story of McCarthy's roommate is a perfect anecdote for why simply informing the public of right vs. wrong won't work when the "wrong" part of the argument is $250 cheaper.

[IceCap]

And what would you suggest they do? Lower the prices of the actual product? Yeah that sounds nice and egalitarian, but it's not going to happen, nor should it.

Simple law of economics. If enough people are willing to pay $300 for an authentic sweater, then why lower the price?

Hey, that is their right... just don't be surprised if some enterprising counterfeiter decides to cater to the market for $50 fake "authentic" sweaters which obviously exists out there.

Again, the NHL gets little to no television revenue. They have to maximize their merchandise profits. And $300 seems to be a level where they can both make a decent profit and offer authentic sweaters at a price the majority of the consumer base is willing to pay.

In fact I would argue that lowering the price wouldn't eliminate counterfeit operations. "Counterfeiting" is something that's been around as long as successful brands have been around. And it will continue to be around. Like most crimes you can't wipe it out completley. You can, however, take steps to secure your brand and copyrights, which is what the Habs are doing. Is the way they are going about it flawed? Sure, but it's something the club can adjust over time. The basic premise behind this "crusade" is a noble one.

You can jump on me all you want if you're upset that I am not feeling any sympathy for the Habs, NHL or Reebok (mostly because it's a calculated business decision designed to maximize profit and probably assumes some level of counterfeiting activity), but it won't change reality.

I'm not jumping on you for failing to sympathize with Habs, the NHL, or Rebook. I'm jumping on you for sympathizing with counterfeiters, who you admit are breaking the law. It's just staggering to think that you, or anyone else, can look at the situation objectively and essentially endorse intellectual property theft. Which is what you're doing when you say "And I for one don't blame the counterfeiters."

[BBTV]

I'll admit that at this point I'm just skimming so I may have missed something, but I don't recall a single post that sympathized with counterfeiters, nor do I see any endorsement of IP theft.

Saying that the counterfeiters can't be blamed is absolutely NOT the same as sympathizing or endorsing. If you're a counterfeiter, you are obviously someone with little regard for law, so once that's out of the way, you become someone who is just peddling products to a market that has been created by the teams / licensees who have overpriced (opinion) their products. If you're a lawless scumbag who is just trying to make a buck by any means necessary, and you see this opportunity that was created by high priced legal jerseys, why not take advantage of it?

I don't think that last paragraph sympathizes with or endorses the counterfeiters in any way shape and form - just acknoledging that they exist, and as long as they are going to exist, they're going to take advantage of opportunities as they present themselves.

Hell - I don't want anyone in my neighborhood being on crack, and I sure as hell don't want any crack dealers hanging out on the corners near my place, but if there are people out there willing to buy, then as much as I hate it, I can't blame a drug dealer for selling drugs to people who want to buy drugs if the way he makes his living is by selling drugs. That being said, I'll still call the cops and try to have him arrested every time I see him, but I understand why he's out there.

It's simply too easy to say "well he shouldn't be selling crack". Of course he shouldn't be selling crack. But he is.

[Waleslax]

Not to defend the counterfeiters, but I'm going to defend the counterfeiters. When RBK and the like charge nearly $400 for an authentic jersey that can't cost anything more than maybe $40 to manufacture and ship, don't be surprised when people start taking advantage of that fact by selling fakes. Remember, nearly everyone outside of this forum doesn't give a crap about the details like the difference between the official Montreal Canadiens "M" vs the one on a fake.

Maybe jersey manufacturers will face their own day of reckoning much like how filesharing made the music industry confront the fact that the days of selling shiat CDs with two good songs on them for $20 was quickly coming to an end...

Sorry, don't buy this argument for music, and I don't buy it for jerseys. Jerseys sell at the price they sell at because that's what the market dictates. If enough people suddenly can't afford Rebook's prices, or simply decide they don't want to pay that much, then prices will lower. It's how the market works.

In the end you just can't justify the breaking of the law. These counterfeiters are profiting off of the intellectual property, fan allegiances, and on-ice efforts of others. It's not right, regardless of how much you try to spin it as a populist movement.

There are two demand curves we're dealing with here, one for authentics and one for knock offs. People's willingness to pay for each is different, which results in the different prices. People on the "quality" demand curve are willing to pay more. People who are willing to pay less are able to choose the lower quality supply.

It's simple economics my dear.

Rob

[Waleslax]

Quick question - how would anyone on the board feel if a pro sports team took that person's concept and used it for the team, paying the creator of the concept nothing?

If you would mind, you should have a problem with buying/wearing a counterfit jersey.

If you don't, I have a hard time believing you are a member of these boards.

Rob

[twi]

FWIW, the authentic Reebok jerseys cost a retailer $150 and the replicas $50, before any quantity discounts are considered.

Is that before customization? I would assume so, but I honestly don't know.

Yes, these are for blank versions.