Canadiens Knockoff Crusade

[IceCap]

It isn't going away, and it's a reality that the teams/jersey makers will have to face beyond putting up websites telling us how to spot a fake letter "M".

Another thing. No Canadiens logo, in the 100 years of the franchise's existence, has ever used an M. The current Habs logo is C/H combination, one of, if not the, most iconic marks in hockey. It's essentially hockey's version of the Yankees' NY. Not sure how you could have missed that.

Exactly. The laws of economics will catch up with them. And if the market base, for whatever reason, decides it doesn't want to buy the product at its current price, the price will be lowered. It's called the free market, it works wonders. The jerseys and CDs are being sold at the prices they're going for now because that's the price the current market supports. You may feel $300 for an authentic is too high, but currently it's a price that the majority of the market is willing to pay.

And your whole "well the people deserve better" bit STILL doesn't hold any water with me. When you download a song illegally or when you buy a counterfeit jersey you're aiding in a felony. These people are violating the copyrights of legal entities. This pseudo-socialist "let the people have jerseys/music and screw the corporations man!" sentiment just seems silly to me.

The law is very black and white on these issues.

Let the jersey makers cover their eyes and ears to what is going on, and be content in knowing that the law is on their side. However, they shouldn't be surprised if some people exploit the tremendous opportunity that they have created with their pricing model.

If you're an accounting whiz or Mercedez-Benz, you can charge a fortune because you know that your product cannot be easily faked. However, music labels and jersey manufacturers are not so fortunate. Their products can be easily faked. Whether it's right or wrong is not the issue - the fact is, it can be done and it is being done, and the practice will continue to grow as long as there are people who are willing to pay $50 for a jersey but not, say, $150 or $250.

So essentially your argument boils down to "screw the law and the money hungry corporations! The jerseys belong to the people!" Got it.

At the risk of going on a mini political tirade I have to say that it's this kind of pseudo-socialist attitude that sets us sensible lefties back some.

[Drew22]

It isn't going away, and it's a reality that the teams/jersey makers will have to face beyond putting up websites telling us how to spot a fake letter "M".

Another thing. No Canadiens logo, in the 100 years of the franchise's existence, has ever used an M. The current Habs logo is C/H combination, one of, if not the, most iconic marks in hockey. It's essentially hockey's version of the Yankees' NY. Not sure how you could have missed that.

He was talking about the image posted of the nameplate.

[WSU151]

For the record, though, there's a big difference between counterfeit jerseys, and incorrect letter/number jobs.

A lot of people buy the real (be it replica or authentic) jerseys, but only later decide to get them customized and go to their local sports shop for that. In many cases, the customization doesn't use the right fonts or method.

But I think that's much different from illegal counterfeiting. Visually it bothers me as much, though.

QFT. Sounds like the Canadiens are more worried about the customizing jobs than the actual jersey. If you wear a blank counterfeit jersey into the arena...no big deal. If you wear a customized jersey that's just a little bit off, may God have mercy on your soul. The emphasis may be a bit misguided, possibly because blank counterfeits are incredibly hard to spot in some cases.

[WSU151]

Exactly. The laws of economics will catch up with them. And if the market base, for whatever reason, decides it doesn't want to buy the product at its current price, the price will be lowered. It's called the free market, it works wonders. The jerseys and CDs are being sold at the prices they're going for now because that's the price the current market supports. You may feel $300 for an authentic is too high, but currently it's a price that the majority of the market is willing to pay.

Yes and no. Arena stores/concessions create an artificial supply and demand system using monopolistic policy and inflated prices. There's no free market in an arena. As long as the player is current and/or popular, the $300 jersey sold in the arena will never sell for less, although the majority of the market can buy that same jersey elsewhere for substantially cheaper. If arena stores sold jerseys at regular market value, they wouldn't be able to stock fast enough.

[charger77]

If counterfiters uped their quality would that force the league to lower jersey prices?

[WSU151]

If counterfiters uped their quality would that force the league to lower jersey prices?

Possibly. An underground market only exists when something is incredibly overpriced. However, a huge factor to consider when dealing with fake/counterfeit/illegal merchandise is the penalty for getting caught. Hypothetically, if conterfeiters upped their quality and instead of charging $50, they now charge $80, I am more likely to buy that $80 jersey if there is no penalty or legal ramification. And I'll still buy that $80 jersey until the league clomes incredibly close to that price point. However, if I'm interested in that $80 jersey, but know that I have a good chance of paying a $10,000 fine, then I'll settle for the much more expensive authentic if I buy a jersey at all.

[BBTV]

If counterfiters uped their quality would that force the league to lower jersey prices?

I'm inclined to say no, because the people who are buying the fakes by in large aren't concerned with the quality, and the people who are concerned about quality wouldn't buy fakes. For example, even if fakes were great quality, I wouldn't buy one because it's supporting theft. I would suspect that most people with an eye for quailty would also be of the mindset that supporting theft is wrong, so conterfeiters improving their "product" wouldn't really gain them too much market share.

I could be wrong though.

[BBTV]

Also, Ice Cap, I think you may be missing his point a little bit (or maybe I'm missing it). I don't think he's condoning or endorsing conterfeiting and theft. I think he's saying that it's an inevitibility that simply cannot be stopped, so there are two ways of dealing with it - a proactive approach and a reactive approach. The reactive approach is what MTL is doing, and what anyone who goes after people who sell this crap is doing. The proactive approach is to think about why it's happening in the first place (which to a great extent is because of the prices) and remove that from the equation. Lowering prices likely would reduce counterfeiting, which is essentially his point.

I don't agree that a business should have to lower it's prices and lose profit in order to compete against a totally illegal competitor, however there's a difference between the ideal world and the world in which we live, and in the real world, that's how it is. Again, I think that's the point of this argument... could be mistaken.

[WSU151]

I don't agree that a business should have to lower it's prices and lose profit in order to compete against a totally illegal competitor

Playing devil's advocate, I would argue that if the league and its vendors lower their prices, they would maximize profit.

[BBTV]

I don't agree that a business should have to lower it's prices and lose profit in order to compete against a totally illegal competitor

Playing devil's advocate, I would argue that if the league and its vendors lower their prices, they would maximize profit.

That's not really playing devil's advocate at all... that's a completely different discussion - one that neither of us are qualified to have an opininon on, since we don't know any of the numbers. Not saying you're wrong, but it's an impossible argument to make.

[Sodboy13]

Also, Ice Cap, I think you may be missing his point a little bit (or maybe I'm missing it). I don't think he's condoning or endorsing conterfeiting and theft. I think he's saying that it's an inevitibility that simply cannot be stopped, so there are two ways of dealing with it - a proactive approach and a reactive approach. The reactive approach is what MTL is doing, and what anyone who goes after people who sell this crap is doing. The proactive approach is to think about why it's happening in the first place (which to a great extent is because of the prices) and remove that from the equation. Lowering prices likely would reduce counterfeiting, which is essentially his point.

I don't agree that a business should have to lower it's prices and lose profit in order to compete against a totally illegal competitor, however there's a difference between the ideal world and the world in which we live, and in the real world, that's how it is. Again, I think that's the point of this argument... could be mistaken.

Your proactive/reactive is accurate from one perspective. However, I don't know that the Canadiens have the capacity to take the proactive approach, as I would imagine their control over the final price point is minimal. I think it might take a concerted effort on the part of all 30 teams to appeal to the league and to Reebok to combine lowered prices with a concerted anti-counterfeiting campaign. And even then, there's a good shot that Reebok would not view such an effort as being their best financial interests, and kindly tell the league to go screw.

[IceCap]

Also, Ice Cap, I think you may be missing his point a little bit (or maybe I'm missing it). I don't think he's condoning or endorsing conterfeiting and theft. I think he's saying that it's an inevitibility that simply cannot be stopped, so there are two ways of dealing with it - a proactive approach and a reactive approach. The reactive approach is what MTL is doing, and what anyone who goes after people who sell this crap is doing. The proactive approach is to think about why it's happening in the first place (which to a great extent is because of the prices) and remove that from the equation. Lowering prices likely would reduce counterfeiting, which is essentially his point.

I don't agree that a business should have to lower it's prices and lose profit in order to compete against a totally illegal competitor, however there's a difference between the ideal world and the world in which we live, and in the real world, that's how it is. Again, I think that's the point of this argument... could be mistaken.

I'm willing to concede that I may have misinterpreted his point, but lines like...

Maybe jersey manufacturers will face their own day of reckoning...

...kind of lead me to think otherwise.

[CubsFanBudMan]

The idea is fine, but I'm not sure it will work. Based on their samples (and then visiting their online store), could I bring in a "premier" or "replica" jersey for money toward an authentic. Or for that matter, how about one of those $20 jersey t-shirts that have become so popular in the past 10 years? Could I get $100 for that? The replica NHL jersey I own doesn't have a fight strap to compare (No. 6 on the link) -- must be a fake even though I bought it at the Florida Panthers' arena.

I guess it's hard to enforce the end of counterfeiters when technically the team itself sells discount knock-offs. (And I agree that too much was made of the sloppy lettering. Happens at the corner sports store all the time. Doesn't mean its a fake -- although I usually notice.)

Furthermore, the reasoning listed is "Purchasing a counterfeit jersey may support unlawful labor conditions and organized crime." Then in the FAQ, they mention that their own replicas are produced overseas and "the quality of Reebok’s replica jersey is far superior to that of any counterfeit jersey currently on the market." But not as good as the authentics. It's still a fake. So you can trade your fake for $50 toward a better fake and that's OK?

Trust me, I dislike the fakes. Ruined eBay for me after getting some good deals on rare jerseys in the early years. But something about this "crusade" is off.

[Morgan33]

I do think the math of "Spend $40 on a fake, save $100 on an authentic" might catch up to the Habs a bit more quickly than they imagine.

I will say this about the music comparison: when you download an illegal music file, it sounds just like what you'd rip off of a purchased CD, or download from iTunes. The bootleg jerseys, however, usually look significantly different from the real deal, and not just in a way that logo nerds like us would notice. The problem must be in enough people seeing the difference in price point and going, "Eh, close enough." Never mind that the numbers and letters look like they were hand-cut without a pattern, the shoulder logos on the white jersey have red backgrounds, and the Indian Head on the front is the wrong color, because the folks in Hong Kong were probably using a Portland Winter Hawks jersey to make copies.

Not so. When you download music illegally from a torrent or client (Limewire etc.) your getting significantly lower quality songs with reduced bit-rates and in most cases audio clipping. An audiophile can pick apart the differences between the two as easily as everyone on this board can spot the differences between counterfeits and authentics. Therefore the comparision is completely on point. You get what you pay for.

[BBTV]

You can easily download FLAC and ALAC songs, which (as the name implies) are lossless, and also >320 kb/s bitrate songs, which while inferior to original recordings by measuring equipment, would be difficult for even the most discriminating audiophile to thumb his nose to. Also, many audiophiles are going back to phonographs, specifically due to the "too perfect" sound of digital recordings, so in some cases, the lack of perfection is a virtue.

[walby2]

Also, Ice Cap, I think you may be missing his point a little bit (or maybe I'm missing it). I don't think he's condoning or endorsing conterfeiting and theft. I think he's saying that it's an inevitibility that simply cannot be stopped, so there are two ways of dealing with it - a proactive approach and a reactive approach. The reactive approach is what MTL is doing, and what anyone who goes after people who sell this crap is doing. The proactive approach is to think about why it's happening in the first place (which to a great extent is because of the prices) and remove that from the equation. Lowering prices likely would reduce counterfeiting, which is essentially his point.

I don't agree that a business should have to lower it's prices and lose profit in order to compete against a totally illegal competitor, however there's a difference between the ideal world and the world in which we live, and in the real world, that's how it is. Again, I think that's the point of this argument... could be mistaken.

You are absolutely correct. When I say that the "day of reckoning" is coming for jersey manufacturers, what I mean is that the day is coming where they will no longer be able to ignore the issue. They will basically be in a position to have to, as you say, lower prices to reduce counterfeiting, or risk being overcome by a tide of cheap counterfeits.

For what it's worth, I've never bought a counterfeit jersey. In fact, the last hockey jersey I bought was an AHL product in 2004. But I have seen the counterfeits out there and the quality is improving. Sure, there are some pieces of crap out there, but the good counterfeits are getting better. Obviously the Habs (to use but one example) are feeling the heat or they wouldn't bother with their "spot the fake" website.

[gosioux76]

Also, Ice Cap, I think you may be missing his point a little bit (or maybe I'm missing it). I don't think he's condoning or endorsing conterfeiting and theft. I think he's saying that it's an inevitibility that simply cannot be stopped, so there are two ways of dealing with it - a proactive approach and a reactive approach. The reactive approach is what MTL is doing, and what anyone who goes after people who sell this crap is doing. The proactive approach is to think about why it's happening in the first place (which to a great extent is because of the prices) and remove that from the equation. Lowering prices likely would reduce counterfeiting, which is essentially his point.

I don't agree that a business should have to lower it's prices and lose profit in order to compete against a totally illegal competitor, however there's a difference between the ideal world and the world in which we live, and in the real world, that's how it is. Again, I think that's the point of this argument... could be mistaken.

Your proactive/reactive is accurate from one perspective. However, I don't know that the Canadiens have the capacity to take the proactive approach, as I would imagine their control over the final price point is minimal. I think it might take a concerted effort on the part of all 30 teams to appeal to the league and to Reebok to combine lowered prices with a concerted anti-counterfeiting campaign. And even then, there's a good shot that Reebok would not view such an effort as being their best financial interests, and kindly tell the league to go screw.

Why couldn't they have taken both routes? The Canadiens could have launched this counterfeit buy-back program while making a public statement in favor of lowering jersey prices, assuming, as SodBoy does, that the final price is out of their control.

At least that way they're attempting to protect their brand while addressing the root of the problem.

[Howie_16]

Not to legitimize intellectual theft, but suppose one was to say that the conterfeit product, due to its lower cost, allows more people to obtain a jersey which promotes the team in question, thereby raising the awareness of the organization in the eyes of potential advertisers?

Discuss.

[IceCap]

Not to legitimize intellectual theft, but suppose one was to say that the conterfeit product, due to its lower cost, allows more people to obtain a jersey which promotes the team in question, thereby raising the awareness of the organization in the eyes of potential advertisers?

Discuss.

Like BBTV said earlier, arguments like this are pointless to try and make because no one here has access to the pertinent information.

Besides, it completley misses the point. Counterfeiters are in clear violation of the law. They're profiting off of a brand they had no part in creating and off of intellectual property they don't own. It's a clear cut case, in my opinion.

[twi]

FWIW, the authentic Reebok jerseys cost a retailer $150 and the replicas $50, before any quantity discounts are considered. I know this doesn't solve the question of what the materials and manufacturing process actually cost but I'm sure (like every product ever made) it's cheaper than that.

The most I've ever sold one for is $250.