2010-11 NHL Season Thread

[Corvus]

The flyers must have forgotten the christmas break is over.

Also,

Suspendable?

[Sport]

When you say "Hall of Fame", you simply can't include guys that you consider "flown under the radar"......

But Osgood never flew under the radar. He's won 3 Cups and to me that along with his stats, are Hall of Fame worthy. He is the greatest, no, but he is one of the best.

He is the definition of "flying under the radar". When people talked about the Red Wings they never talked about their goalie. The discussion was always about the russians and Yzerman and then later the Swedes and Yzerman. Osgood was like talking piece number 10 on those teams.

He's won 2 cups sure (Vernon started 20 games during the 97 playoffs, Osgood started 2 and didn't win either) but those teams were a couple of the best defensive teams in the last quarter century. Any competent goaltender could've done the same and competent doesn't get you to the hall-of-fame. Osgood isn't a hall-of-famer to me.

I've always kind of agreed with the mindset that if you have doubt in your mind about a guy's hall-of-fame credentials then maybe he isn't a hall-of-famer. Osgood definitely falls into that area.

[charger77]

Wings beat the Avalanche 4-3 last night in OT... however, the story of the game was Chris Osgood picking up win #400...

Now, the debate in Detroit today is whether or not Osgood is deserving of being inducted to the Hall of Fame. His resume will be pretty impressive if this is his last year (which I don't think it will be):

- Likely #8 on all-time wins chart, passing Grant Fuhr (403) and Glenn Hall (407)

- GAA somewhere around 2.20... lowest GAA among top-25 goalies, likely better than Brodeur (2.23)... I know... different eras so most of the list is non-comparable... but for arguments sake.

- 3 Stanley Cup rings (Only an active participant for two though)

Now, not many people have ever thought of Osgood as top-tier goalie (Has anyone ever considered Osgood as a Top 5 goalie in the NHL?)... However, he does have all the stats and has been incredibly consistent throughout his career... So the question is... would you put Osgood in the Hall of Fame?

I have made the case against Osgood for many years.

Here is why I think Osgood is not a Hall of Famer:

When did he win the Vezina?

If he is so great why did Detroit give up on him in 2001?

Why was he their back up in 2006, 2007 and 2008.

Yes, he came off the bench to help them win in 2008 but who won the Conn Smythe that year? (Zetterberg)

The year after the 2008 Cup, the team actually had to send him home to get his head on straight and lost his starting job to Ty Conklin.

Osgood then became the starter for the 2009 Cup run and we were even hearing Conn Smythe talk in Detroit. Then what did he do? He lost 4 of the last 5 games of the 2009 Stanley Cup Finals (after going up 2-0 in the series) and became the 1st goalie in 50 years to lose Game 7 of the Cup series at home.

How many playoff rounds did he win while he was out of Detroit? Zero

In the 1996 season Osgood went 39 - 6 - 5 (an amazing record!) yet lost out on the Vezina to Jim Carey who was 35 - 24 - 9. Osgood had 4 more wins in 18 less games! The Vezina is voted on by the GMs so it gives some insight as to what they think. How many other times was he even nominated.

Goalies that have won a Vezina in Osgood's tenure as an NHL Goalie:

Hasek x 6

Jim Carey

Olaf Kolzig

Jose Theodore

Martin Brodeur x 4

Miikka Kipprusoff

Tim Thomas

Ryan Miller

I am not saying that a Vezina is a Hall of Fame lock, but not winning one can't be in your favor.

Personally I think Osgood reaps the benefits of playing on a damn good Detroit team.

This can also be said for:

Tim Cheveldae

Bob Essensa

Mike Vernon

Ken Wreggett

Bill Ranford

Manny Legace

Curtis Joseph

Dominick Hasek

Ty Conklin

and

Jimmy Howard

All of those goalies have been #1 goalies for the Wings during their impressive run.

BTW... When was Osgood ever asked to represent Team Canada in any major international competition? Coming off back to back cup runs he was never considered for Canada's 2010 Olympic Team or even in 1998 when he was the #1 goalie for the eventual Cup champions.

Turns out playing behind players like:

Lidstrom, Coffey, Chelios, Konstantinov, Duchense, Schneider, Stuart, Fedorov (When he played on D) Murphy and Fetisov can really make a guy look good.

Also, Osgood has had the benefit of playing behind Selke Trophy winners and nominees such as Sergei Fedorov, Steve Yzerman, Kris Draper, Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg (Nominee).

I am not out to be anti-Wing here, but I am anti-Osgood is a Hall of Famer.

Personally I think Osgood has "Hall of Fame numbers" but the knock against him is that he has Mike Richter/Felix Potvin talent.

[charger77]

Here is my Osgood rant from April 2009 from the "2009 Stanley Cup Playoffs" thread.

Oh boy... somebody got me started on my Chris Osgood rant!

Honestly, I think Osgood is a fraud. To me he is THE shining example of a player who is carried by his team. As for his three Cups, 1997, he was a back up, in 1998 they won inspite of him (playing Phoenix, St.Louis, a injury depleated Dallas and Washington in the finals helped too.) If any year you could say he played a big part of 2008. But honestly couldn't Detroit have won with just about any goalie? Yeah, Hasek crapped out, but he was a 42 year old shell if himself.

What about the years he didn't win Cups in Detroit? He dropped a 2-0 series lead and lost 4 straight to Colorado. I'll even be nice and not rip him for 2000 because that Avalanche team was damn good and similiar to the team that would win the 2001 Cup. And speaking of 2001 what about the loss to the Kings as a #2 seed? Just like 1999, after going up 2-0 he lost 4 straight again.

How many playoff series did he win with the Islanders or the Blues? Goalies like Irbe, Theodore, Brent Johnson, Cloutier (Who he let up a 3-1 series against), Roloson, Cechmanek and Aebischer all won playoff series in that same span (2002, 2003 and 2004) In 2006 Osgood was a back up to Manny Legace and backed up Hasek in 2007.

What do the Wings think of Osgood? In 2001 he was placed on waivers because they thought he was not good enough to win with so they brought in Hasek, then when he was brought back in 2005 it was as a back up, and only because his salary fit into the cap. After Hasek crapped out in the '08 playoffs the Wings would have replaced him with just about any back up they had, if it was Legace, it would have been Legace, but they had Osgood, so thats who went it. The Wings could have won the Cup last year with just about any of the playoff goalies from that year, except the crappy tandem that Colorado put out.

What about his regular season career? Where is his Vezina? In 1996 he was 39-6, that is a damn good record, and a 2.17 gaa, but where was his Vezina? Jim Carrey won it that year because the voters (NHL GMs) knew that he has the benefit of playing on a very talanted Red Wings team. However, he did win two Jennings Trophies, which he had won as a tandem (Vernon 1996 and Hasek 2008). Hell, Olaf Kolzig and Jim Carrey have won Vezinas during Osgood's time as a starter.

The Wings won 2 Cups with Osgood as their starter but couldn't they have won in 1998 and 2008 with most other play off goalies from those years? I think Osgood's playoff fate when he was not with the Wings, his playoff faliures (especially 1999 and 2001), plus his zero Vezina Trophies really show that while Osgood is a decent and serviceable goalie but is really the product of playing on a damn good Red Wings team (playing behind a six time Norris Trophy winner helps too). In the 2008 playoffs Osgood had 14 wins 3 shutouts and a 1.55 gaa. A 1.55 gaa! Hernik Zetterberg won the Conn Smythe. I think that shows what the Professional Hockey Writers' Association think.

Sorry about the rant I just think he is one of the most overrated athletes out there and I'm sick of hearing how he is a Hall of Fame lock.

-Dan

[charger77]

I actually forgot he was on the team but Comrie is gonna be out for a while.

[GFB]

I have made the case against Osgood for many years.

Here is why I think Osgood is not a Hall of Famer:

When did he win the Vezina?

Being the goalie for a team like the Red Wings, you are automatically downgraded... See why Jimmy Howard didn't win the Calder Trophy last year...

If he is so great why did Detroit give up on him in 2001?

After two very disappointing playoff runs, the Wings decided to go with the the savvy veteran goalie for the veteran team, similar to '97 with Mike Vernon. However, the problem was never really with Osgood, but rather from a lack of scoring and poor defensive play... However, outside of '02, Dominic Hasek and Curtis Joseph (two HoF worthy goalies) didn't fair any better than Osgood...

Why was he their back up in 2006, 2007 and 2008.

He was on IR in 2006. In '07, he put up better numbers than Hasek despite being in a backup role. In '08 he finally retook the job from Hasek and led the team to the Stanley Cup...

Yes, he came off the bench to help them win in 2008 but who won the Conn Smythe that year? (Zetterberg)

The year after the 2008 Cup, the team actually had to send him home to get his head on straight and lost his starting job to Ty Conklin.

Osgood then became the starter for the 2009 Cup run and we were even hearing Conn Smythe talk in Detroit. Then what did he do? He lost 4 of the last 5 games of the 2009 Stanley Cup Finals (after going up 2-0 in the series) and became the 1st goalie in 50 years to lose Game 7 of the Cup series at home.

Yes, he started poorly... But he did get his act together for the playoffs and played the best hockey of his career. And that Game 7 loss falls more on the Red Wings anemic offense than Osgood, who gave up two goals that he really couldn't do much about.

How many playoff rounds did he win while he was out of Detroit? Zero

True, but look at those franchises: The St. Louis Blues and the New York Islanders... His record for those two losing organizations was 84-67-20 and he never had a losing season in all four years for them. I mean, if someone went and played QB for the Lions and Browns for four years and had a record of 22-16 with no losing seasons, who cares if he never made the playoffs. He still won on those terrible teams...

In the 1996 season Osgood went 39 - 6 - 5 (an amazing record!) yet lost out on the Vezina to Jim Carey who was 35 - 24 - 9. Osgood had 4 more wins in 18 less games! The Vezina is voted on by the GMs so it gives some insight as to what they think. How many other times was he even nominated.

Goalies that have won a Vezina in Osgood's tenure as an NHL Goalie:

Hasek x 6

Jim Carey

Olaf Kolzig

Jose Theodore

Martin Brodeur x 4

Miikka Kipprusoff

Tim Thomas

Ryan Miller

I am not saying that a Vezina is a Hall of Fame lock, but not winning one can't be in your favor.

That '96 team was sick. Their 62 wins is still an NHL record... And if I remember correctly, Jim Carey was a stud that year for a Caps team that really didn't have much outside of him, much like Steve Mason in Columbus or Luongo's years in Florida... (Or so I've heard, I was 7 years old in 1996... but I did have Jim Carey's Starting Lineup figurine!)

Also, you could make the case that half the time the Vezina goes to the biggest name goalie with the best year (Hasek/Brodeur) and the other half it goes the goalie that did the most with the least (Kolzig/Casey/Miller). Because Osgood is neither a household name nor has little to work with, he is easy to look over

Personally I think Osgood reaps the benefits of playing on a damn good Detroit team.

This can also be said for:

Tim Cheveldae

Bob Essensa

Mike Vernon

Ken Wreggett

Bill Ranford

Manny Legace

Curtis Joseph

Dominick Hasek

Ty Conklin

and

Jimmy Howard

All of those goalies have been #1 goalies for the Wings during their impressive run.

First off, Cheveldae, Essensa, Wreggett, and Ranford were trash (or so I hear/remember). Vernon was a stud, probably the best goalie from the 80's outside of Roy. Cujo and the Dominator were good, but for the 6/7 years between those two HoF goalies, only one Stanley Cup is a shame with the teams they had in front of them... Osgood won 2/3 Cups than both Hasek and Cujo in the same time frame. Conklin might be your best example because he had an outstanding year in '09 after being trashed in Pittsburgh. And Jimmy Howard might be the most naturally talented goalie the Wings have had since Sawchuck.

BTW... When was Osgood ever asked to represent Team Canada in any major international competition? Coming off back to back cup runs he was never considered for Canada's 2010 Olympic Team or even in 1998 when he was the #1 goalie for the eventual Cup champions.

Hard for any goalie to crack that national team when you have two of the best goalies of all-time when Martin Brodeur is in his prime and Patrick Roy is coming off another cup run.

Turns out playing behind players like:

Lidstrom, Coffey, Chelios, Konstantinov, Duchense, Schneider, Stuart, Fedorov (When he played on D) Murphy and Fetisov can really make a guy look good.

Also, Osgood has had the benefit of playing behind Selke Trophy winners and nominees such as Sergei Fedorov, Steve Yzerman, Kris Draper, Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg (Nominee).

Again, other goalies have had the same people in front of them, and outside of Vernon no one has done more with that talent than Osgood...

I am not out to be anti-Wing here, but I am anti-Osgood is a Hall of Famer.

Personally I think Osgood has "Hall of Fame numbers" but the knock against him is that he has Mike Richter/Felix Potvin talent.

My responses in red... just playing a little devil's advocate. And for the record, I don't believe Ozzie will get into the hall of fame unless he picks up Stanley Cup #4 this year or next year.

[charger77]

I have made the case against Osgood for many years.

Here is why I think Osgood is not a Hall of Famer:

When did he win the Vezina?

Being the goalie for a team like the Red Wings, you are automatically downgraded... See why Jimmy Howard didn't win the Calder Trophy last year...

No.

But I think it hurts a goalies Hall of Fame resume to never be considered the best at what he does.

If he is so great why did Detroit give up on him in 2001?

After two very disappointing playoff runs, the Wings decided to go with the the savvy veteran goalie for the veteran team, similar to '97 with Mike Vernon. However, the problem was never really with Osgood, but rather from a lack of scoring and poor defensive play... However, outside of '02, Dominic Hasek and Curtis Joseph (two HoF worthy goalies) didn't fair any better than Osgood...

Can't Hall of Fame goaltending trump that?

Why was he their back up in 2006, 2007 and 2008.

He was on IR in 2006. In '07, he put up better numbers than Hasek despite being in a backup role. In '08 he finally retook the job from Hasek and led the team to the Stanley Cup...

2006 - Legacy was the starter for most of the year.

2007 - Osgood had better numbers being the back-up because most back-up goalies play against lesser competition. In spite of that, who did they go with in the playoffs?

Yes, he came off the bench to help them win in 2008 but who won the Conn Smythe that year? (Zetterberg)

The year after the 2008 Cup, the team actually had to send him home to get his head on straight and lost his starting job to Ty Conklin.

Osgood then became the starter for the 2009 Cup run and we were even hearing Conn Smythe talk in Detroit. Then what did he do? He lost 4 of the last 5 games of the 2009 Stanley Cup Finals (after going up 2-0 in the series) and became the 1st goalie in 50 years to lose Game 7 of the Cup series at home.

Yes, he started poorly... But he did get his act together for the playoffs and played the best hockey of his career. And that Game 7 loss falls more on the Red Wings anemic offense than Osgood, who gave up two goals that he really couldn't do much about.

I am not putting just Game 7 on him. However, isn't Game 7 "where legends are made"? The guy still blew a 2-0 series lead and lost four of five to close the series. He had two chances to close that series.

How many playoff rounds did he win while he was out of Detroit? Zero

True, but look at those franchises: The St. Louis Blues and the New York Islanders... His record for those two losing organizations was 84-67-20 and he never had a losing season in all four years for them. I mean, if someone went and played QB for the Lions and Browns for four years and had a record of 22-16 with no losing seasons, who cares if he never made the playoffs. He still won on those terrible teams...

I never said Osgood sucked. I just expect that a Hall of Famer should be able to steal a series. Which he did not do in his stints with the Isles and Blues. (He did blow a 3-1 series lead against Vancouver in 2003)

In the 1996 season Osgood went 39 - 6 - 5 (an amazing record!) yet lost out on the Vezina to Jim Carey who was 35 - 24 - 9. Osgood had 4 more wins in 18 less games! The Vezina is voted on by the GMs so it gives some insight as to what they think. How many other times was he even nominated.

Goalies that have won a Vezina in Osgood's tenure as an NHL Goalie:

Hasek x 6

Jim Carey

Olaf Kolzig

Jose Theodore

Martin Brodeur x 4

Miikka Kipprusoff

Tim Thomas

Ryan Miller

I am not saying that a Vezina is a Hall of Fame lock, but not winning one can't be in your favor.

That '96 team was sick. Their 62 wins is still an NHL record... And if I remember correctly, Jim Carey was a stud that year for a Caps team that really didn't have much outside of him, much like Steve Mason in Columbus or Luongo's years in Florida... (Or so I've heard, I was 7 years old in 1996... but I did have Jim Carey's Starting Lineup figurine!)

Hell I have a Jim Carey Jersey!

I think your point there helps prove my point.

Also, you could make the case that half the time the Vezina goes to the biggest name goalie with the best year (Hasek/Brodeur) and the other half it goes the goalie that did the most with the least (Kolzig/Casey/Miller). Because Osgood is neither a household name nor has little to work with, he is easy to look over

Personally I think Osgood reaps the benefits of playing on a damn good Detroit team.

This can also be said for:

Tim Cheveldae

Bob Essensa

Mike Vernon

Ken Wreggett

Bill Ranford

Manny Legace

Curtis Joseph

Dominick Hasek

Ty Conklin

and

Jimmy Howard

All of those goalies have been #1 goalies for the Wings during their impressive run.

First off, Cheveldae, Essensa, Wreggett, and Ranford were trash (or so I hear/remember). Vernon was a stud, probably the best goalie from the 80's outside of Roy. Cujo and the Dominator were good, but for the 6/7 years between those two HoF goalies, only one Stanley Cup is a shame with the teams they had in front of them... Osgood won 2/3 Cups than both Hasek and Cujo in the same time frame. Conklin might be your best example because he had an outstanding year in '09 after being trashed in Pittsburgh. And Jimmy Howard might be the most naturally talented goalie the Wings have had since Sawchuck.

Vernon would be behind at least Billy Smith and Grant Fuhr as great goalies of the 1980s. However, Cheveldae won a playoff series in Detroit and Essensa, Wregett and Ranford all played significant time while the Wings were winning division titles.

Jimmy Howard: Is tied for 1st in the NHL in wins, but is 23rd in gaa and 22nd in save %. I am not saying Howard is a bad goalie, but I am saying that he may not be as good as many think.

The Wings are in a great position. They can stack their team in goal, and have two really solid top lines and plunk just about anybody in goal and spend minimal cash and have a hell of a team.

BTW... When was Osgood ever asked to represent Team Canada in any major international competition? Coming off back to back cup runs he was never considered for Canada's 2010 Olympic Team or even in 1998 when he was the #1 goalie for the eventual Cup champions.

Hard for any goalie to crack that national team when you have two of the best goalies of all-time when Martin Brodeur is in his prime and Patrick Roy is coming off another cup run.

Olympics aside, there is the World Championships etc...

Turns out playing behind players like:

Lidstrom, Coffey, Chelios, Konstantinov, Duchense, Schneider, Stuart, Fedorov (When he played on D) Murphy and Fetisov can really make a guy look good.

Also, Osgood has had the benefit of playing behind Selke Trophy winners and nominees such as Sergei Fedorov, Steve Yzerman, Kris Draper, Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg (Nominee).

Again, other goalies have had the same people in front of them, and outside of Vernon no one has done more with that talent than Osgood...

Hasek?

I am not out to be anti-Wing here, but I am anti-Osgood is a Hall of Famer.

Personally I think Osgood has "Hall of Fame numbers" but the knock against him is that he has Mike Richter/Felix Potvin talent.

My responses in red... just playing a little devil's advocate. And for the record, I don't believe Ozzie will get into the hall of fame unless he picks up Stanley Cup #4 this year or next year.

Wouldn't Cup #4 be as a back-up?

I'm in green.

I'm not trying to be a prick. If Osgood had at least one individual (not a shared Jennings) trophy to his name or ever lead the league in wins or shutouts or had success outside of Detroit I think he would have a much stronger case. I think he is just a goalie who was above average in his prime who played on an amazing team that made him face low shot totals and never counted on him to win a series. Hell, If Joseph or even Legace was given more than 2 and 1 playoff runs they may have brought the Wings a Cup too. Vernon was a Wing for 3 years. He took the Wings to their first final in nearly 30 years in his first season as a Wing then won a Cup in his 3rd year then was exiled to San Jose.

[Brass]

He lost 4 of the last 5 games of the 2009 Stanley Cup Finals (after going up 2-0 in the series) and became the 1st goalie in 50 years to lose Game 7 of the Cup series at home.

Not to nitpick, but it was actually 38 years, not 50.

As for Osgood, well, you're right, he did play for a really good team. However, stats speak for themselves, whether or not he's got a good team in front of him. Is it a factor? Absolutely. However, charger, you seem to be quick to point out that Osgood was merely a product of the team in front of him. Could you not say the same about someone like, say, Martin Brodeur? Who more than benefited from a very, very defensive minded team during his hay-day.

[charger77]

He lost 4 of the last 5 games of the 2009 Stanley Cup Finals (after going up 2-0 in the series) and became the 1st goalie in 50 years to lose Game 7 of the Cup series at home.

Not to nitpick, but it was actually 38 years, not 50.

As for Osgood, well, you're right, he did play for a really good team. However, stats speak for themselves, whether or not he's got a good team in front of him. Is it a factor? Absolutely. However, charger, you seem to be quick to point out that Osgood was merely a product of the team in front of him. Could you not say the same about someone like, say, Martin Brodeur? Who more than benefited from a very, very defensive minded team during his hay-day.

It is possible to make that argument against Brodeur too.

However, considering that he did win the Vezina Trophy 4 times, the Jennings Trophy 5 times (tied for the record). Won the Stanley Cup 3 times (all as a starter), Won 2 gold medals (1 as a back up), Named to 4 Olympic teams, is the NHL's all time leader in Wins (He has 207 more than the next active guy and (56 more than #2 on the list), 2nd most wins in the playoffs, most wins in a regular season, is the NHL's all time leader in shutouts, tied for most playoff shutouts, has the most 40 win seasons. its probably safe to say that it may have been mostly Marty.

Yes stats, trophys and records do not mean everything. But Brodeur has done so much and won so much that I think that it is fair in his case to say that it was mostly him and not the team.

Chris Osgood played behind 5 Norris winners (Coffey in 1995 - Lidstrom 2001-2006-2007-2008) and 6 Selke Trophy winners (Fedorov 1994 & 1996 - Yzerman 2000 - Datsyuk 2008-2009-2010).

Broduer played behind 1 Norris winner (Niedermayer 2004) and 1 Selke winner (Madden 2001).

I think Osgood is more of a "system goalie" than Broduer.

[Brass]

He lost 4 of the last 5 games of the 2009 Stanley Cup Finals (after going up 2-0 in the series) and became the 1st goalie in 50 years to lose Game 7 of the Cup series at home.

Not to nitpick, but it was actually 38 years, not 50.

As for Osgood, well, you're right, he did play for a really good team. However, stats speak for themselves, whether or not he's got a good team in front of him. Is it a factor? Absolutely. However, charger, you seem to be quick to point out that Osgood was merely a product of the team in front of him. Could you not say the same about someone like, say, Martin Brodeur? Who more than benefited from a very, very defensive minded team during his hay-day.

It is possible to make that argument against Brodeur too.

However, considering that he did win the Vezina Trophy 4 times, the Jennings Trophy 5 times (tied for the record). Won the Stanley Cup 3 times (all as a starter), Won 2 gold medals (1 as a back up), Named to 4 Olympic teams, is the NHL's all time leader in Wins (He has 207 more than the next active guy and (56 more than #2 on the list), 2nd most wins in the playoffs, most wins in a regular season, is the NHL's all time leader in shutouts, tied for most playoff shutouts, has the most 40 win seasons. its probably safe to say that it may have been mostly Marty.

Yes stats, trophys and records do not mean everything. But Brodeur has done so much and won so much that I think that it is fair in his case to say that it was mostly him and not the team.

Chris Osgood played behind 5 Norris winners (Coffey in 1995 - Lidstrom 2001-2006-2007-2008) and 6 Selke Trophy winners (Fedorov 1994 & 1996 - Yzerman 2000 - Datsyuk 2008-2009-2010).

Broduer played behind 1 Norris winner (Niedermayer 2004) and 1 Selke winner (Madden 2001).

I think Osgood is more of a "system goalie" than Broduer.

Again, though, some of those stats could be because of the team in front of him. Take this season, perhaps. Marty has a pretty pedestrian defense in front of him and his numbers are showing it.

[charger77]

Again, though, some of those stats could be because of the team in front of him.

Some, maybe. Hell you could take away half of what he has accomplished and he is still a hall of famer. Take away half of what Osgood did and you have Mike Richter (Richter at least won the 1996 World Cup and has a Silver Medal)

Broduer won 3 Stanley Cups before he had a Norris winning defenseman in front of him. Not to mention his 1994 and 1995 playoff runs to kick off his career.

Take this season, perhaps. Marty has a pretty pedestrian defense in front of him and his numbers are showing it.

I'm not sure if that is a reasonable argument. Marty is 38 years old, at the end of his career and is coming off a lot of injuries.

[GFB]

I have made the case against Osgood for many years.

Here is why I think Osgood is not a Hall of Famer:

When did he win the Vezina?

Being the goalie for a team like the Red Wings, you are automatically downgraded... See why Jimmy Howard didn't win the Calder Trophy last year...

No.

But I think it hurts a goalies Hall of Fame resume to never be considered the best at what he does.

If he is so great why did Detroit give up on him in 2001?

After two very disappointing playoff runs, the Wings decided to go with the the savvy veteran goalie for the veteran team, similar to '97 with Mike Vernon. However, the problem was never really with Osgood, but rather from a lack of scoring and poor defensive play... However, outside of '02, Dominic Hasek and Curtis Joseph (two HoF worthy goalies) didn't fair any better than Osgood...

Can't Hall of Fame goaltending trump that?

Why was he their back up in 2006, 2007 and 2008.

He was on IR in 2006. In '07, he put up better numbers than Hasek despite being in a backup role. In '08 he finally retook the job from Hasek and led the team to the Stanley Cup...

2006 - Legacy was the starter for most of the year.

2007 - Osgood had better numbers being the back-up because most back-up goalies play against lesser competition. In spite of that, who did they go with in the playoffs?

Yes, he came off the bench to help them win in 2008 but who won the Conn Smythe that year? (Zetterberg)

The year after the 2008 Cup, the team actually had to send him home to get his head on straight and lost his starting job to Ty Conklin.

Osgood then became the starter for the 2009 Cup run and we were even hearing Conn Smythe talk in Detroit. Then what did he do? He lost 4 of the last 5 games of the 2009 Stanley Cup Finals (after going up 2-0 in the series) and became the 1st goalie in 50 years to lose Game 7 of the Cup series at home.

Yes, he started poorly... But he did get his act together for the playoffs and played the best hockey of his career. And that Game 7 loss falls more on the Red Wings anemic offense than Osgood, who gave up two goals that he really couldn't do much about.

I am not putting just Game 7 on him. However, isn't Game 7 "where legends are made"? The guy still blew a 2-0 series lead and lost four of five to close the series. He had two chances to close that series.

How many playoff rounds did he win while he was out of Detroit? Zero

True, but look at those franchises: The St. Louis Blues and the New York Islanders... His record for those two losing organizations was 84-67-20 and he never had a losing season in all four years for them. I mean, if someone went and played QB for the Lions and Browns for four years and had a record of 22-16 with no losing seasons, who cares if he never made the playoffs. He still won on those terrible teams...

I never said Osgood sucked. I just expect that a Hall of Famer should be able to steal a series. Which he did not do in his stints with the Isles and Blues. (He did blow a 3-1 series lead against Vancouver in 2003)

In the 1996 season Osgood went 39 - 6 - 5 (an amazing record!) yet lost out on the Vezina to Jim Carey who was 35 - 24 - 9. Osgood had 4 more wins in 18 less games! The Vezina is voted on by the GMs so it gives some insight as to what they think. How many other times was he even nominated.

Goalies that have won a Vezina in Osgood's tenure as an NHL Goalie:

Hasek x 6

Jim Carey

Olaf Kolzig

Jose Theodore

Martin Brodeur x 4

Miikka Kipprusoff

Tim Thomas

Ryan Miller

I am not saying that a Vezina is a Hall of Fame lock, but not winning one can't be in your favor.

That '96 team was sick. Their 62 wins is still an NHL record... And if I remember correctly, Jim Carey was a stud that year for a Caps team that really didn't have much outside of him, much like Steve Mason in Columbus or Luongo's years in Florida... (Or so I've heard, I was 7 years old in 1996... but I did have Jim Carey's Starting Lineup figurine!)

Hell I have a Jim Carey Jersey!

I think your point there helps prove my point.

Also, you could make the case that half the time the Vezina goes to the biggest name goalie with the best year (Hasek/Brodeur) and the other half it goes the goalie that did the most with the least (Kolzig/Casey/Miller). Because Osgood is neither a household name nor has little to work with, he is easy to look over

Personally I think Osgood reaps the benefits of playing on a damn good Detroit team.

This can also be said for:

Tim Cheveldae

Bob Essensa

Mike Vernon

Ken Wreggett

Bill Ranford

Manny Legace

Curtis Joseph

Dominick Hasek

Ty Conklin

and

Jimmy Howard

All of those goalies have been #1 goalies for the Wings during their impressive run.

First off, Cheveldae, Essensa, Wreggett, and Ranford were trash (or so I hear/remember). Vernon was a stud, probably the best goalie from the 80's outside of Roy. Cujo and the Dominator were good, but for the 6/7 years between those two HoF goalies, only one Stanley Cup is a shame with the teams they had in front of them... Osgood won 2/3 Cups than both Hasek and Cujo in the same time frame. Conklin might be your best example because he had an outstanding year in '09 after being trashed in Pittsburgh. And Jimmy Howard might be the most naturally talented goalie the Wings have had since Sawchuck.

Vernon would be behind at least Billy Smith and Grant Fuhr as great goalies of the 1980s. However, Cheveldae won a playoff series in Detroit and Essensa, Wregett and Ranford all played significant time while the Wings were winning division titles.

Jimmy Howard: Is tied for 1st in the NHL in wins, but is 23rd in gaa and 22nd in save %. I am not saying Howard is a bad goalie, but I am saying that he may not be as good as many think.

The Wings are in a great position. They can stack their team in goal, and have two really solid top lines and plunk just about anybody in goal and spend minimal cash and have a hell of a team.

BTW... When was Osgood ever asked to represent Team Canada in any major international competition? Coming off back to back cup runs he was never considered for Canada's 2010 Olympic Team or even in 1998 when he was the #1 goalie for the eventual Cup champions.

Hard for any goalie to crack that national team when you have two of the best goalies of all-time when Martin Brodeur is in his prime and Patrick Roy is coming off another cup run.

Olympics aside, there is the World Championships etc...

Turns out playing behind players like:

Lidstrom, Coffey, Chelios, Konstantinov, Duchense, Schneider, Stuart, Fedorov (When he played on D) Murphy and Fetisov can really make a guy look good.

Also, Osgood has had the benefit of playing behind Selke Trophy winners and nominees such as Sergei Fedorov, Steve Yzerman, Kris Draper, Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg (Nominee).

Again, other goalies have had the same people in front of them, and outside of Vernon no one has done more with that talent than Osgood...

Hasek?

I am not out to be anti-Wing here, but I am anti-Osgood is a Hall of Famer.

Personally I think Osgood has "Hall of Fame numbers" but the knock against him is that he has Mike Richter/Felix Potvin talent.

My responses in red... just playing a little devil's advocate. And for the record, I don't believe Ozzie will get into the hall of fame unless he picks up Stanley Cup #4 this year or next year.

Wouldn't Cup #4 be as a back-up?

I'm in green.

I'm not trying to be a prick. If Osgood had at least one individual (not a shared Jennings) trophy to his name or ever lead the league in wins or shutouts or had success outside of Detroit I think he would have a much stronger case. I think he is just a goalie who was above average in his prime who played on an amazing team that made him face low shot totals and never counted on him to win a series. Hell, If Joseph or even Legace was given more than 2 and 1 playoff runs they may have brought the Wings a Cup too. Vernon was a Wing for 3 years. He took the Wings to their first final in nearly 30 years in his first season as a Wing then won a Cup in his 3rd year then was exiled to San Jose.

All valid points...

But then why isn't Grant Fuhr penalized for playing for the 80s Oilers? Or Jacques Plante punished for playing for the great Canadians teams?

Maybe Chris Osgood will be viewed like Steve Young. Young was had the best WR in NFL history and a great offensive scheme in SF, had to sit behind a Hall of Famer, and won his share of championships when he was called upon... Also, his play for the Buccaneers was not what you would expect from a NFL Hall of Famer...

[charger77]

But then why isn't Grant Fuhr penalized for playing for the 80s Oilers? Or Jacques Plante punished for playing for the great Canadians teams?

Grant Fuhr was a Vezina winner, a Hart finalist and was the goalie that won the 1987 Canada Cup and was left out to dry on a nightly basis while in Edmonton.

Jacques Plante was a 6 Time Vezina winner, a Hart Trophy winner and was a 6 time Stanley Cup Champion.

Maybe Chris Osgood will be viewed like Steve Young. Young was had the best WR in NFL history and a great offensive scheme in SF, had to sit behind a Hall of Famer, and won his share of championships when he was called upon... Also, his play for the Buccaneers was not what you would expect from a NFL Hall of Famer...

Perhaps. But there was a time that Young was viewed as the best QB in the league and was a two time MVP.

BTW... Why isn't Tom Barrasso in yet?

[Corvus]

The flyers must have forgotten the christmas break is over.

Also,

Suspendable?

Bob Mackenzie is saying two games on twitter, fyi.

[charger77]

As the Islanders and Penguins head to a shootout Crosby's streak is over.

[GMW79]

Well, Crosby's streak just ended. He's not my favorite player, but the streak was one of the more interesting stories of this season. I guess now he can scrape that fuzz of his upper lip and look a bit more presentable for the Winter Classic. NHL marketing should be happy about that.

[GMW79]

I typer too much and too slowly--ya beat me Charger77.

[cameroncrazie07]

Wow Crosby misses the shootout attempt too, Dipietro isnt playing God-awful for once.

[Sport]

Way to go Islanders!

[Viper]

People keep suggesting Target Field for it if it EVER gets to Minnesota. What about TCF Bank Stadium at the University of Minnesota?

It seats 80,000 for football, so you could probably get another 5,000+ for hockey. In Minnesota, it's VERY likely to sell out.

Try 50,000.

The U of M's no-alcohol policy at the stadium (which they have already shown they are unwilling to lift for non-Gopher events such as the recent Vikings game there) is probably a deal-breaker for the Winter Classic.

That said, it's just a matter of time before the Gopher men's hockey team gets an outdoor game there one of these years, probably as part of the annual 'Hockey Day in Minnesota' against either Wisconsin or one of their in-state WCHA rivals.