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Another List By Espn


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Well, boxing is not a sport. Not as I define them. Its difficult, but so is climbing Everest or writing a novel or running for President.

But thats my own twisted definition of a sport and is beside the point.

What this illustrates to me is that there is some merit to what I frequently say....hockey is by far the most demanding team sport to play. I mean, you have to be a world class skater (defined by some as a sport in and of itself) to think about playing.....THEN comes the toughness, hand-eye, and all the rest. You can't be Gilbert Brown or David Wells and play NHL hockey. There are no chubbsters and scrubs. Even veritable goons who couldnt find the back of the net with both hands still have to be able to skate like........like really good skaters.

As an aside, my friends and I often ask that while hockey is roughest, what is the easiest of the major sports to play? Meaning, if you could afford to take 2 years off and train with the best, could you make it at all in any of the 4?

We said basketball was by far the easiest, which is why seeing it so high on that list surprised me.

I mean, even at my youngest and best shape, I wasn't built for football. I played in HS but would die in the NFL. And if I cant hit a 90mph ball, then I just cant. I was on ok player up to ..65mph maybe, but if you cant hit a baseball, you cant play the game. NHL.....love to dream I could...but alas. Whole different level.

ANd I dont mean to insinuate that I could ball with the NBAers...far from it.......but if I hit the gym, got the legs for running the (comparatively small) floor again.......I would stand out the least as a weak link on the basketball court compared to any other. I can shoot ok....I'd get blocked alot, turn it over more than usual.....but it's just not THAT hard I dont think.

I may be way off and you'll be sure to tell me if I am. But compared to playing pro football, baseball, or hockey.........hoops seems rec league to me.

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See, to me, there are two groups: Sports and Games. It's very easy to break an athletic competition into one group or the other: If you can drink while competing, it's a game. If you can't drink while competing, it's a sport.

Football is a sport. Hockey is a sport. Basketball is a sport. Boxing is a sport.

Baseball is a game. Curling is a game. Bowling is a game.

And by the same token, if you participate in a Sport professionally, you are an athlete. If you participate in a Game professionally, you aren't. You might have a drinking problem, but you're no athlete.

:D

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Auto Racing 32,

Track and Field: High Jump, 33

Track and Field: Long, Triple jumps, 34

Diving, 35

Swimming (all strokes): Distance, 36

Skateboarding, 37

Track and Field: Sprints, 38

Rowing, 39

...

Track and Field: Distance, 40

...

Track and Field: Middle Distance 43

Weight-Lifting, 44

Swimming (all strokes): Sprints, 45

Water Skiing, 46

...

Track and Field: Weights, 48

Canoe/Kayak, 49

...

GARRRR!! There are no words to describe how stupid this is. Well, maybe there are, but the filter would turn them into words like plop and fluff. Car racing is not a sport and it sure as hell isn't harder than some of these actual sports. The only skill you need is some hand-eye coordination and a reckless disregard for your own well-being.

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I don't think hockey should be the top spot either. You don't have to be THAT great of a skater to play the game. It takes no more hand eye coordination than, basketball. And really, besides that... it's shooting the puck and awareness. If you don't have awareness, you're not gonna be good at any sport... and shooting the puck is something that is easily learnable.

I think the poll is flawed...

I would give football a 9 on the strength category. Especially if you're a Lineman. And I would give hockey something like a 6. Hockey players generally aren't very strong (other than their legs). There's some exceptions, but I wouldn't say it makes much of a difference for a majority of the players who are strong. Basketball should be higher than hockey in the strength. How many players have you heard "he's not strong enough to make it in the NBA" and... well, that player didn't make it in the NBA? I've heard it alot. Juan Dixon comes to mind... he's still in the league, but nowhere near as good as he was in college. Granted, there are exceptions -- but being a big man downlow, you NEED strength. Tell the guy who gets backed down by Shaq, or outpositioned on a rebound by Ben Wallace that strength isn't that important. And for the little guys who aren't strong but do succeed in the league... they make up for it in their quickness and toughness.

And I don't think basketball is all that easy. It takes alot of time to acquire a good shot, as well as patience. If you gave me 2 years to train... I guarentee I could get to a higher level of hockey than for basketball.

Eh, there are other but I don't feel like pointing them out.

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Thats pretty interesting to hear that take on it ITE88. I mean, clearly I'm posing a ridiculous question. I didn't even start in HS Basketball and would get killed at any level. I know how physically and mentally committed all pro athletes are...and that none of us could just step in.

And strength does matter in the NBA, mostly because they've abandoned the rules of the game to allow all manner of physical contact. But it does matter. It alone kept Ray Allen from being what he could have and should have been here.

But I would say you've sold the NHLers out a little on the skating. Sure, they dont have to be Olympic figure skaters but the vast majority of the world skates twice a year over Christmas break wobby the whole time. You have to be better than decent, better than alright to play hockey at a high level. Plus I find the puckhandling wholey different than say dribbling a basketball. The element of barely contained control (in hoops , its fairly easy to retain possession) involved in stickhandling to be a constant challenge. I mean, you never "have" it...its never contacting your body at all......you cant tuck it away. ANd add to that the coordination to do what you want with it, while people hit your stick away, hit you, and you are moving fast the whole time and cant look down. It's tricky.

ANyway, my #1 rule for a sport are this...

1) your opponent must have a way to affect your level of play. His success must have a direct correlation to your lack thereof. ..i.e. a sport must have defense. This rules out golf, track, bowling and all the other ones that people love to throw in that are largely fun recreational athletic activities, but not sports. ANd I dont mean, that by running fast, I make the competion seem slow and thus affect his day. I mean, you have to be allowed to "Make" him run slower, or not at all.

NASCAR and Boxing are off my radar because they are both crimes. I know, in most accepted sports, certain portions would be regarded as assault. But the entirety of racing and boxing is speeding/wreckless endangerment, and fighting. Thats all they are. ORganized lawlessness.

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Auto Racing 32,

Track and Field: High Jump, 33

Track and Field: Long, Triple jumps, 34

Diving, 35

Swimming (all strokes): Distance, 36

Skateboarding, 37

Track and Field: Sprints, 38

Rowing, 39

...

Track and Field: Distance, 40

...

Track and Field: Middle Distance 43

Weight-Lifting, 44

Swimming (all strokes): Sprints, 45

Water Skiing, 46

...

Track and Field: Weights, 48

Canoe/Kayak, 49

...

GARRRR!! There are no words to describe how stupid this is. Well, maybe there are, but the filter would turn them into words like plop and fluff. Car racing is not a sport and it sure as hell isn't harder than some of these actual sports. The only skill you need is some hand-eye coordination and a reckless disregard for your own well-being.

For real. Pro wrestling is more of a sport than auto racing. At least wrestlers have to train and be in some kind of shape.

Not saying that pro wrestling is necessarily a sport either. My stance is this:

Pro Wrestlers = Athletes

Pro Wrestling = Not a sport

And honestly, I think it takes more skill to use the Marquette interchange here in Milwaukee during rush hour than it does to take left turns around a track with 30 other cars.

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I agree with Sterling to some extend on the boxing thing. I'm not saying it is easy, but 'sport' definitions, by looking at this list, are being stretched. I'd say what *I* get out of this list is this:

1. Hockey

2. Football

3. Basketball

4. Tennis (? seems high)

5. Baseball

6. Soccer (under baseball? hardly.)

7. Water Polo

8. Rugby (this seems low, too)

9. Lacrosse

10. Pole Vault

Also, I'm not a NASCAR guy, but I think you guys are seriously misjudging auto racing as being easy. It is difficult, take strength and endurance.

By the above definitions: you can't drink beer during it... and the other competitors can affect how you perform... so.. a sport, right? ;)

Seriously, I think driving a racecar, Formula 1, IRL, NASCAR is an athletic event that takes more than just steering and disregard for safety. You guys simply haven't been on the driver's side of real auto racing.

It shouldn't be HIGHER, thats for sure. But Diving? You mean, organized falling? Do you need ANY muscle for that? Skill, yes.. but you fall for 2 seconds, then you are done.

Anyway.. begin the harrasment of me.

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Car racing is not a sport and it sure as hell isn't harder than some of these actual sports. The only skill you need is some hand-eye coordination and a reckless disregard for your own well-being.

okay, i'd like to see you man-handle a 3400lb NASCAR inches away from other competiors and concrete walls, in a 135degree cockpit at 195mph. sometimes pulling up to 4 G's in indycars(meaning your body is 4 times as heavy). then do it for 3 or 4 hours. sometimes without even power steering. THEN and only then will I listen to you when you say racecar drivers arent theletes. pretty much all race car drivers are in workout programs all week between races to be in shape for sunday aftenoons. i've actually heard that drivers can lose up 5-10 pounds during ONE RACE, from being worked so hard in those cars. many drivers have had to have oxygen given to them after 4 hour races because they're so whipped:mad:

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Car racing is not a sport and it sure as hell isn't harder than some of these actual sports. The only skill you need is some hand-eye coordination and a reckless disregard for your own well-being.

okay, i'd like to see you man-handle a 3400lb NASCAR inches away from other competiors and concrete walls, in a 135degree cockpit at 195mph. sometimes pulling up to 4 G's in indycars(meaning your body is 4 times as heavy). then do it for 3 or 4 hours. sometimes without even power steering. THEN and only then will I listen to you when you say racecar drivers arent theletes. pretty much all race car drivers are in workout programs all week between races to be in shape for sunday aftenoons. i've actually heard that drivers can lose up 5-10 pounds during ONE RACE, from being worked so hard in those cars. many drivers have had to have oxygen given to them after 4 hour races because they're so whipped:mad:

It's not a sport. It's risky and it takes some skill, but it's not a sport and it's participants are not athletes for the simple reason that the car does too much of the work and that the work done by the drivers, while strenuous in its own right, is not athletic. It's like Albert Pujols telling the bat when to swing instead of swinging it himself or Barry Sanders riding a motorcycle downfield. Sure, it may take skill for Albert to time the batting mechanism right or for Barry to balance himself and evade linesman, but it's still relying on a machine to do the grunt work.

Just because they go through the rigors of a race, it doesn't make them athletes. The risk of death and physical strain doesn't a sport make, as someone would put it poetically.

Furthermore, I dispute the notion that one has to do something to be able to judge it. Why do I have to have driven a NASCAR car to be able to say whether or not it's not a sport? That's ludicrous. Do I have to ride the Tour de France to say it's brutal and grueling? Do I have to go to Iraq to say war is rough?

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i've actually heard that drivers can lose up 5-10 pounds during ONE RACE, from being worked so hard in those cars. many drivers have had to have oxygen given to them after 4 hour races because they're so whipped:mad:

But there's lots of physically demanding jobs that aren't sports. Firemen, for instance, manhandle some of the toughest conditions known to man. Search&Rescue personnel come to mind. By your definition, a waiter who serves elephant thighs in an outdoor cafe on a blustery, burning hot day in Saudi Arabia (no implication here, just trying to recreate conditions) would meet the standard.

Also, too many variables in auto racing have nothing to do with the driver. Having a fast car greatly increases your odds of winning, much more than, say, having good basketball shoes (regardless of what Mars Blackmon may think) or different shoulder pads in football.

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It's risky and it takes some skill, but it's not a sport... (edit)...and that the work done by the drivers, while strenuous in its own right, is not athletic

Help me define athletic. I think athletic means... takes high muscular effort, high exersion, co-ordination, and skill.

I am open to any further definition, but by what i just said, racecar drivers do all of that.

it's participants are not athletes for the simple reason that the car does too much of the work

The tennis raquest does a lot of the work. The golf club does a lot of the work. The skates do a lot of the work. Take a step backwards, an eliminate all the extra stuff involved int he sport. Imagine we have the power of invisibility. Now, lets make the entire car, helmet, and racing suit invisible. So, now we have a guy in a t0shirt and shorts, bent at the waist, arms out. Now, lets do the same to a basketball player. No court, no ball. Now we have a guy standing, one arm out. If we then hit the 'Play' button.... what are these two gentlemen doing? one is running, cutting back and forth, jumping, and moving his arms around, with a couple pound ball of resistance. The other is moving his legs, moving one arm back and forth from beside him to in front of him, while the other holds back hundreds of pounds of pressure. His body is jerked left and right, and vibrated for all he is worth.

This was a long way to go, to make this point - think that the EXACT SAME conditioned human being, when done with a car race or a baskeball game will be nominally the same level of tired, for they have done nominally the same level of work.

I think driving is a very different skill... a driver couldn't shoot baskets nessesarily, nor could a basketball player drive a race car well.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying driving is the highest form of sport, nor should it be ranked higher, but it deserves to be on the same list as football, curling, billiards, and ice dancing.

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Help me define athletic. I think athletic means... takes high muscular effort, high exersion, co-ordination, and skill.

I am open to any further definition, but by what i just said, racecar drivers do all of that.

That's how I'd define athletic as well and it is under this definition I would exclude race car drivers - they do those things, to be sure, but they are not in the same class as the skills required to excel at real sports because they are not the primary actors in the sport. As much as it's made to be about the drivers, the cars are still the most important part of the "sport".

I just don't think that sitting in a car and telling it what to do is in the same class as trying to hit a baseball or stop a hockey puck or throw a perfect spiral pass fifty yards. A racecar is far more important than the person using it as compared to a tennis racket and its user.

And, SyPhi, as usual, is right on target.

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But there's lots of physically demanding jobs that aren't sports. Firemen, for instance, manhandle some of the toughest conditions known to man. Search&Rescue personnel come to mind. By your definition, a waiter who serves elephant thighs in an outdoor cafe on a blustery, burning hot day in Saudi Arabia (no implication here, just trying to recreate conditions) would meet the standard.

Also, too many variables in auto racing have nothing to do with the driver. Having a fast car greatly increases your odds of winning, much more than, say, having good basketball shoes (regardless of what Mars Blackmon may think) or different shoulder pads in football.

I'm really not the bigest racing fan in the world or anything, i'm juts interested to see where is discussion can go.

But there's lots of physically demanding jobs that aren't sports. Firemen, for instance, manhandle some of the toughest conditions known to man. Search&Rescue personnel come to mind.

So race car driving is a service job? I don't think so. It is a sport because it is a game to win. The purpose is to get to the finish line first.

Also, too many variables in auto racing have nothing to do with the driver. Having a fast car greatly increases your odds of winning, much more than, say, having good basketball shoes

Even you said, "increases your odds." So, it IS largely about the driver. it could be said that a punter doesn't have as much to do with his team excelling as othee positions, so is he, then, not an athelete? I say a punter, while not on the field much, is a very important part, and IS an athlete. Just like a driver, while not the whole sport, is an intergral part, and thereby he is an athlete.

Another point here is.. how about IROC racing? If you are unfamiliar, IROC is where individually prepped cars, made to be as equal as possible, are drawn from a hat my the drivers, then raced to see who is the best driver. Takes out the best car part of your equation, huh?

That's how I'd define athletic as well and it is under this definition I would exclude race car drivers - they do those things, to be sure, but they are not in the same class as the skills required to excel at real sports

So, to be clear that I understand your rebuttal;

You agree that I defined athelete correctly, with my list of things and athlete does.

You agree that drivers do all of the things on my list.

Yet, you deny that because drivers do all the things that make up an athlete, they ARE an athlete because: they are not in the same class as the skills required to excel at real sports

I'm not real sure what this means. Does this mean, "They may do all the things that we agree an athlete does, but they are not an athlete cause I say so?"

The A + B = C but B + A does not = C? huh?

Just to add fuel to the fire, how about the pit crew? Are they not athletes? They run and jump and perform largely physical acts with precision and great physical effort.

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Just as an add-on. I know my view of what is a sport is narrow and filled with double standards. Its just what I am comfortable with. I also think you kind of need a team involved....so I dont really count Tennis although it fits virtually every criteria one could imagine.

My list would be very short.

baseball/softball/kickball

football

rugby

basketball

hockey

volleyball

thats about it, I'm sure there are more...but you get the drift.

Its really just that words interest/annoy me equally.

I once had a years long argument with a friend about the word "study". Its prevalent in college obviously and every time this friend would blow off dinner or drinking or playing catch it would be because he was "studying".

I called him on it because study is a very catch-all type of word.....like sport.......that people throw around a lot. I asked him to define what it was he was always doing that kept him from hanging out. I asked for more info, cause in my experience studying can be anything from reading assigned chapters, looking over notes or sitting in the union looking at girls. And there is a difference in those things....some are just the result of a tough course (lots of reading to keep up with), some are the result of poor learning habits (rereading notes at nauseum) and perhaps I could help with that and some (looking at chicks) is a viable activity but a diss none-the-less. I just wanted to know what was consuming so much time. And since I'm weird it turned into a dissertation on my hatred of the reliance on the catch-all study. Cause I never told anyone I studyied........I'd say reviewing for a test or doing some still lives for class or whatever.

This is all WAY off the point, but just to clue you guys in that my problem with activities being sports or not is stupid, and probably wrong.....but somehow matters in my lame brain.

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So, to be clear that I understand your rebuttal;

You agree that I defined athelete correctly, with my list of things and athlete does.

You agree that drivers do all of the things on my list.

Yet, you deny that because drivers do all the things that make up an athlete, they ARE an athlete because: they are not in the same class as the skills required to excel at real sports

I'm not real sure what this means. Does this mean, "They may do all the things that we agree an athlete does, but they are not an athlete cause I say so?"

You cut off the "because" part of my rebuttal...ya know, the part where I explain my answer ;) .

Do they possess athleticism? Sure.

Is this athleticism the primary tool of the person using it? No, and I think this is why you can't consider them athletes.

My rebuttal was (or should have been :D ) something to the effect of, they use and possess these skills, but they are not athletes because their athleticism is not the primary determining factor in a their success.

Kinda like pro wrestling. You could be a tremendous athlete, but if you have absolutely no stage presence or "mic skills," you'll spend your entire career fighting in barns and High School gymnasiums. In car racing, if you're driving a Yugo, it doesn't mater how athletic a driver you are, you're not gonna be successful.

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Auto Racing is not really a sport, but it CAN be hard, believe it or not. It's pretty hard when your trying to overtake someone while holding off someone behind you. Its pretty hard turning with presision around each corner while going 300 to 60.

If you dont call that hard, then what is hard? And whoever said you dont have to train for Auto Racing, look at Paul Tracy. He lost weight so his car can go faster :blink: [what?] :blink:

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