St. Louis Blues for Sale

[illwauk]

The league won't let a team leave Phoenix, Atlanta, or Miami, and you think they'll let the Blues go?

The NHL/Bettman's "logic" in shoehorning teams into those markets is that it supposedly makes them more "major league" with representation in those parts of the country (regardless of whether or not the people in those oh-so-important television markets are actually paying attention to the teams) whereas the Midwest is already well-represented. Not saying I agree with them by any means, but I'm sure the league feels like St. Louis is more expendable than any of the cities you named.

That said, I can't actually see the Blues moving with the Rams' impending doom.

[yh]

So, unless you've got a handful of loaded StL expats living elsewhere and interested in buying up the team and the rink or a diehard NHL fan that's desperate to own ANY team and keep them where they are, I have serious, serious doubts about the long-term future of the Blues in St. Louis. I don't see a last minute savior like a Checketts or an Ornest or a Ralston Purina on the horizon. The more likely scenario is that Bill Laurie and Skip Walther pool their collective mad money to buy Scottrade Center and the Hornets. I think the Blues wind up going to the top of the table for the groups in Winnipeg and Hamilton, or perhaps even QC. The Quebec Bleus -- it would break my heart but the prospect of a uniform incorporating the highly-portable Bluenote and the Nords' Fleur de Lis does hold some aesthetic promise.

This is a GROSS overreaction.

The league won't let a team leave Phoenix, Atlanta, or Miami, and you think they'll let the Blues go?

They would accept Tom Stillman's low offer before they sold to someone and allowed them to move.

You know I've always loved your optimism and your StL pride. Perhaps I'm just a tired ol' middle aged guy who's seen this game played out before - the Ralston Purina buyout with 7 minutes left on the clock before the franchise would have been contracted, the Ornest swoop-in to keep the team out of The 'Toon, etc. etc. St. Louis just doesn't have the corporate potential and the population base that Phoenix, Altanta and Miami have. The region is having enough problems holding on to what few existing corporations it still hosts and with AB now a sub-component of a Belgian company, the region's biggest lever against any sports league is gone like the wind.

Let's not forget (as I'm sure they haven't in Vancouver) that St. Louis was NEVER in the NHL's expansion plan to begin with. We were a throw-in because 1/6 of the NHL (i.e. the Blackhawks, who owned The Arena) insisted on putting a team there so as to unload the Old Barn. The franchise was awarded to StL quite a bit of time prior to an owner being found. I don't think the NHL has ever given a rat's arse about St. Louis, even when the team was putting together a quarter century long playoff streak, perennially averaging 17-19,000 fans per game, and icing some pretty exciting albeit underachieving teams in the early 80's and late 90's. I think the Blues' availability gives the NHL an opportunity to say, "you know, Mr. Prospective Owner, why don't you let us try to salvage Operation Bettman's Sunbelt Empire while you take this prepackaged contender of a team from St. Louis and put it wherever you want." This is my fear. I sure hope that your youthful optimism prevails.

[BBTV]

What's their lease with the Kiel (or whatever it's called now) Center? How soon could they move?

[Ez Street]

Kansas City Blues. You keep them in state at least.....

LOL.

[The_Admiral]

What's their lease with the Kiel (or whatever it's called now) Center? How soon could they move?

I can't find how long it's through, but I'm sure dfwabel can. It seems to be one of those long-term sweetheart leases wherein the Blues pretty much operate the arena on behalf of St. Louis City and reap the benefits of all those concerts and such. That's what any owner is really going to want, since the Not Kiel Center is still the biggest indoor arena for miles and miles in any direction and thus a valuable venue.

The only thing that makes me doubt this is that I'm baffled as to how the Blues can have such hot-potato ownership under that arrangement. The Blues have strong attendance, they skimp on payroll, and they run their building. How is it that they're always in some sort of financial peril? Do they just not, like, charge anything for all the tickets they sell?

[The_Admiral]

Anyway, sounds like this Stillman fellow (not Cory) is going to buy the team for like $120 million. That's nothing.

[STL FANATIC]

Ticket prices is exactly why Admiral. The tickets are CHEAP and always discounted. That's not to say they couldn't charge more or the fanbase is weak. But the fanbase isn't rich, and if the team isn't winning, then they can't charge more. It's something of a catch-22 right now, but if the franchise could get an owner who could (wisely) pour about 10 million a year extra into the payroll, they'd like get over that hump and be a perennial playoff team. Fans would pay more for tickets and the club would earn extra money from some playoff rounds. But without that extra 10 million we have a team with flashes of brilliance that can maybe sneak into the playoffs if they're healthy--and in hockey that rarely happens.

Yale, I feel like in this case it's not just my own optimism. The prevailing thought is that a Blues move just isn't even on the table. I can see where you're coming from in that we're not Bettman's baby so maybe he'd actually let it slide, but I just don't think so. He can't afford to let a good American hockey market, one that CAN make money go by the wayside.

I suspect Stillman's group will be successful in buying the Blues, but I think it happens down the line (not by free agency unfortunately) and probably for around $140.

But I'm completely speculating there.

[Gothamite]

Yale, I feel like in this case it's not just my own optimism. The prevailing thought is that a Blues move just isn't even on the table. I can see where you're coming from in that we're not Bettman's baby so maybe he'd actually let it slide, but I just don't think so. He can't afford to let a good American hockey market, one that CAN make money go by the wayside.

I agree. I see this as a Penguins situation, where he'll work to save a deserving market.

[BBTV]

What's their lease with the Kiel (or whatever it's called now) Center? How soon could they move?

I can't find how long it's through, but I'm sure dfwabel can. It seems to be one of those long-term sweetheart leases wherein the Blues pretty much operate the arena on behalf of St. Louis City and reap the benefits of all those concerts and such. That's what any owner is really going to want, since the Not Kiel Center is still the biggest indoor arena for miles and miles in any direction and thus a valuable venue.

The only thing that makes me doubt this is that I'm baffled as to how the Blues can have such hot-potato ownership under that arrangement. The Blues have strong attendance, they skimp on payroll, and they run their building. How is it that they're always in some sort of financial peril? Do they just not, like, charge anything for all the tickets they sell?

Have we Jobbing.com'd the Marshall Falk Dome already?

[IceCap]

Ticket prices is exactly why Admiral. The tickets are CHEAP and always discounted. That's not to say they couldn't charge more or the fanbase is weak. But the fanbase isn't rich, and if the team isn't winning, then they can't charge more. It's something of a catch-22 right now, but if the franchise could get an owner who could (wisely) pour about 10 million a year extra into the payroll, they'd like get over that hump and be a perennial playoff team. Fans would pay more for tickets and the club would earn extra money from some playoff rounds. But without that extra 10 million we have a team with flashes of brilliance that can maybe sneak into the playoffs if they're healthy--and in hockey that rarely happens.

Yale, I feel like in this case it's not just my own optimism. The prevailing thought is that a Blues move just isn't even on the table. I can see where you're coming from in that we're not Bettman's baby so maybe he'd actually let it slide, but I just don't think so. He can't afford to let a good American hockey market, one that CAN make money go by the wayside.

I suspect Stillman's group will be successful in buying the Blues, but I think it happens down the line (not by free agency unfortunately) and probably for around $140.

But I'm completely speculating there.

So are you finally admitting Phoenix/Glendale CAN'T make money?

Anyway best wishes. I'd hate to see the Blues leave town. It's a financially viable, seemingly well supported team. With the NHL in the state it's in they need as many of those as they can find.

[rams80]

What's their lease with the Kiel (or whatever it's called now) Center? How soon could they move?

I can't find how long it's through, but I'm sure dfwabel can. It seems to be one of those long-term sweetheart leases wherein the Blues pretty much operate the arena on behalf of St. Louis City and reap the benefits of all those concerts and such. That's what any owner is really going to want, since the Not Kiel Center is still the biggest indoor arena for miles and miles in any direction and thus a valuable venue.

The only thing that makes me doubt this is that I'm baffled as to how the Blues can have such hot-potato ownership under that arrangement. The Blues have strong attendance, they skimp on payroll, and they run their building. How is it that they're always in some sort of financial peril? Do they just not, like, charge anything for all the tickets they sell?

Have we Jobbing.com'd the Marshall Falk Dome already?

The Rams haven't moved yet.

Besides...they could just sit back and let the New Madrid fault do the demo work for them.

/Too soon?

[missouri tigers]

What's their lease with the Kiel (or whatever it's called now) Center? How soon could they move?

I can't find how long it's through, but I'm sure dfwabel can. It seems to be one of those long-term sweetheart leases wherein the Blues pretty much operate the arena on behalf of St. Louis City and reap the benefits of all those concerts and such. That's what any owner is really going to want, since the Not Kiel Center is still the biggest indoor arena for miles and miles in any direction and thus a valuable venue.

The only thing that makes me doubt this is that I'm baffled as to how the Blues can have such hot-potato ownership under that arrangement. The Blues have strong attendance, they skimp on payroll, and they run their building. How is it that they're always in some sort of financial peril? Do they just not, like, charge anything for all the tickets they sell?

Have we Jobbing.com'd the Marshall Falk Dome already?

The Rams haven't moved yet.

Besides...they could just sit back and let the New Madrid fault do the demo work for them.

/Too soon?

yeah, Too soon for earthquake jokes

[rams80]

What's their lease with the Kiel (or whatever it's called now) Center? How soon could they move?

I can't find how long it's through, but I'm sure dfwabel can. It seems to be one of those long-term sweetheart leases wherein the Blues pretty much operate the arena on behalf of St. Louis City and reap the benefits of all those concerts and such. That's what any owner is really going to want, since the Not Kiel Center is still the biggest indoor arena for miles and miles in any direction and thus a valuable venue.

The only thing that makes me doubt this is that I'm baffled as to how the Blues can have such hot-potato ownership under that arrangement. The Blues have strong attendance, they skimp on payroll, and they run their building. How is it that they're always in some sort of financial peril? Do they just not, like, charge anything for all the tickets they sell?

Have we Jobbing.com'd the Marshall Falk Dome already?

The Rams haven't moved yet.

Besides...they could just sit back and let the New Madrid fault do the demo work for them.

/Too soon?

yeah, Too soon for earthquake jokes

It happened in 1811. We've mourned the dead long enough.

[missouri tigers]

What's their lease with the Kiel (or whatever it's called now) Center? How soon could they move?

I can't find how long it's through, but I'm sure dfwabel can. It seems to be one of those long-term sweetheart leases wherein the Blues pretty much operate the arena on behalf of St. Louis City and reap the benefits of all those concerts and such. That's what any owner is really going to want, since the Not Kiel Center is still the biggest indoor arena for miles and miles in any direction and thus a valuable venue.

The only thing that makes me doubt this is that I'm baffled as to how the Blues can have such hot-potato ownership under that arrangement. The Blues have strong attendance, they skimp on payroll, and they run their building. How is it that they're always in some sort of financial peril? Do they just not, like, charge anything for all the tickets they sell?

Have we Jobbing.com'd the Marshall Falk Dome already?

The Rams haven't moved yet.

Besides...they could just sit back and let the New Madrid fault do the demo work for them.

/Too soon?

yeah, Too soon for earthquake jokes

It happened in 1811. We've mourned the dead long enough.

To be honest i don't know what you are talking about, but I was refering to the earthquake that killed hundreds if not thousands of people in Japan like 1 or 2 weeks ago.

[dfwabel]

What's their lease with the Kiel (or whatever it's called now) Center? How soon could they move?

I can't find how long it's through, but I'm sure dfwabel can. It seems to be one of those long-term sweetheart leases wherein the Blues pretty much operate the arena on behalf of St. Louis City and reap the benefits of all those concerts and such. That's what any owner is really going to want, since the Not Kiel Center is still the biggest indoor arena for miles and miles in any direction and thus a valuable venue.

The only thing that makes me doubt this is that I'm baffled as to how the Blues can have such hot-potato ownership under that arrangement. The Blues have strong attendance, they skimp on payroll, and they run their building. How is it that they're always in some sort of financial peril? Do they just not, like, charge anything for all the tickets they sell?

I did not look back at this thread since I said my items last week. I apologize and appreciate that I am useful for a little bit within the forums. If people really have questions on such things, put it out there, yet, I am not sure that I will take all PMs.

From what I have researched, and the building is owned by the team and not by either the City or County of St. Louis.

In looking at the now former contract between KCP-Kiel Center Partners, LLC (the team's owner at the time of construction and opening) with Savvis says the following Section 10. Warranties and Representations. That was the actual contract with numbers taken out.

KCP is the owner of the Arena and has a valid and existing

ground lease pursuant to that certain Amended and Restated Sublease

Agreement dated as of November 24, 1992, by and between KCP and Kiel

Center Redevelopment Corporation (a copy of which has been delivered to

Savvis) (the "Lease"), which Lease is in full force and effect as of

the Naming Rights Effective Date and the term of which is scheduled to

run throughout the Term of this Agreement, provided that the Lease is

not otherwise terminated or otherwise canceled.

After reading that, the lease is through the 2017-18 season, even though if the team played there for 25 consecutive years,

the lease would end during 2019-2020 season.

STL FANATIC is correct in that this Checketts ownership group lowered ticket prices following the lockout, making it even

more vital to make the playoffs, but this year the team will have to refund some 600 season tickets due to some promotion.

There is also the issue of city/state/entertainment taxes which the team pays. I have read it is as much as 12.6%.

[StLgent]

I do not think that the NHL wants to lose a market that they can count on like St. Louis. Even during the leaner years, there was still strong support in St. Louis for the Blues. I think that Stillman has a good chance of acquiring the team, and if he does not, I would not be suprised if someone else steps up and buys the team and Scott Trade.

[The_Admiral]

http://www.stltoday....ad5ded15e5.html

So it will be Stillman and not Hulsizer after all. This is a good thing. This, however, gave me pause:

The price of the package, which includes the Blues, the team's top minor-league affiliate in Peoria, Ill., the Scottrade Center lease and significant interest in the Peabody Opera House, is expected to be approximately $130 million to $135 million.

This sounds a lot like the Lightning sale, where you buy real estate with a free hockey team. It's not this principle in and of itself that surprises me here, since a diversified real estate/promotions portfolio is the only way to make it in the hockey business, but rather that the price is so reasonable for the package. True North paid $170 million to buy the Thrashers franchise (minus the IP) and move it to Winnipeg. The league is charging $180 million for the Coyotes franchise and just the franchise. Stillman is paying even less for not only the Blues franchise, but their AHL team, a major concert venue, and the master lease to the publicly-owned arena for which they reap all profits and pay no property taxes. That's some deal.

[rams80]

I don't think the AHL team is exactly showing a profit, at least if the amount of people I see in the arena when I went to games is any indication.

[Gothamite]

That is cheap. Sounds like the Blues are in trouble at the gate. Is that true

In any case, these franchise values seem staggeringly low to me. Not, unfortunately, the sign of a healthy sport.

[BBTV]

I think the challenges of the STL market are pretty obvious, but I had always thought of the Blues as one of the more successful American franchises (from a stability and financial standpoint if not an on-ice standpoint). This makes it seem like they've fallen in to the next-to worthless category. That's a ridiculously sweet deal for just the team, let alone all the other stuff. Hopefully this stabalizes their situation. It'd've (is a double contraction valid?) been a shame to see something happen to them.