What should replace Fighting Sioux?

[OnWis97]

It's kind of sad that Standing Rock won't even let their people vote to decide in a democratic process.

It isn't our call; if the people of Standing Rock are unhappy with their leaders' decision, they have elections to express that unhappiness.

When you strip away all the hyperbole, this boils down to a very simple case of licensing intellectual property. There are two owners from which the university must secure a license. One of those decided not to license their property, and that's that.

We may not like their decision, nor how they came to that decision, but they were well within their rights and we have to respect that decision.

Good luck with that.

[Gothamite]

Yeah, I know. But I try.

[Big D]

UND should probably have their new nickname after the state horse; the Lakotas. North Dakota Lakotas don't sound too bad, but Bison would sound better. Except North Dakota State University already has Bison has theirs.

The horse is Nokota. Lakota is another Siouian tribe.

Stand corrected! Thank you and I should know better as my grandmother grew up in North Dakota. I think a logo design of the Nokota horse could be pretty good.

[tubby34]

Fighting Soo and adopt a Greyhound as a mascot. Seriously.

[Hontas]

Which is why the NCAA had to get involved; most times the schools can't be trusted to do what's right without an incentive.

That's a revealing statement.

[Gothamite]

Deliberately so.

"The right thing" in this case is respecting another's intellectual property rights, which I have strongly advocated on these boards whenever it has come up.

[winghaz]

Gothamite, it's not for you, or the NCAA, to enforce the intellectual property rights. Those are up to the tribes, and the tribes alone.

The NCAA should never have butted in, unless both tribes said no. Well, one tribe said yes, and another said, "We'll see."

You're saying the NCAA has every right to protect the intellectual property rights. So why aren't they? Why has this led to a lawsuit by the Spirit Lake tribe?

[Gothamite]

It is absolutely the place of the NCAA to enforce certain sandards for its members. Make sure your athletes maintain a certain GPA, schools graduate students at a set rate, and that they're not stealing anybody's intellectual property.

As for the "no means no", if you proposition a pretty woman in a bar, and she laughs, that's not a "yes." Neither is ignoring you, or changing the subject, or even saying "we'll see." Only "yes" is a yes.

And that's where we are - the two tribes had to sign a licensing agreement. Not signing the agreement is a "no," even if they didn't specifically say "no." Because like our hypothetical woman in a bar, they didn't have to specifically say no.

[winghaz]

Gothamite, then why is the Spirit Lake tribe suing the NCAA?

[Gothamite]

Because they are claiming, in essence, that the other tribe's consent is not required. Or at least that appears to be the strongest case that I've seen in any of the summaries, since the notion that they are somehow being oppressed by the rules of a voluntary organization seems likely to be laughed out of court.

A grand move, if a somewhat desperate one. Seems to me that they'd be better off suing the other tribe for "unreasonably withholding consent" or some such, but what the heck. I don't know if they have any written agreements between the two tribes concerning licensing conditions.

But don't confuse a lawsuit, or the threat of one, with a substantive position. One need not have either right or law on one's side to file a lawsuit. "Anybody can sue anybody" is what makes this country great. Perhaps that tribe will prevail. Until that day, the NCAA's rules apply.

And FWIW, there are those in the Standing Lake tribe who are opposed to the lawsuit. But just like the other tribe not putting it to a vote, that's representative democracy in action. Intellectual honesty requires that if you support one council's actions, you have to support both.

[Gothamite]

And now that I've answered you, will you agree that for both our hypothetical woman and the tribe, anything other than an affirmative and unequivocal "yes" is in actuality a "no"?

[winghaz]

Looks like I have to post the transcript from the Spirit Lake tribe as to why the lawsuit. Here goes:

Statement by: Reed Soderstrom, an attorney for the Committee of Understanding & Respect, and Archie Fool Bear, individually and on behalf of the 1004+ Petitioners.

Today, the Spirit Lake Tribe of Indians, by and through its Committee of Understanding and Respect, and Archie Fool Bear, individually, and as Representative of more than 1004 Petitioners of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe, filed a lawsuit against the National Collegiate Athletic Association ( NCAA) in direct response to their attempt to take away and prevent the North Dakota Sioux Indians from giving their name forever to the University of North Dakota.

In 2009 the Spirit Lake tribe voted overwhelmingly to allow the University of North Dakota to continue using the name "Fighting Sioux." In 1969, in a sacred & religious spiritual ceremony, the tribal leaders of the Standing Rock tribe granted perpetual use of the name "Fighting Sioux" to the University of North Dakota.

However, the NCAA has unilaterally decided that the name "Fighting Sioux" is derogatory to the very people who feel honored by the name ? the North Dakota Sioux tribes. The NCAA has declared, without input from the Dakota Sioux, that UND will be prevented from hosting any post-season sporting events; and is encouraging other universities to boycott UND if the University does not remove the name "Fighting Sioux" and the accompanying logo honoring the traditions and customs of the proud Dakota Sioux people. These actions are a violation of the religious and first amendment rights of the Dakota Sioux tribes, and show the NCAA believes it knows the interests of the North Dakota Sioux community better than Sioux people themselves.

Though the NCAA has decided "Fighting Sioux" is derogatory, the NCAA supports the University of Illinois' use of the name "Fighting Illini," and the use by Florida State University of the name "Seminoles" along with the Seminole mascot ? someone dressed in Native American attire who rides into the FSU stadium on a horse and throws a flaming spear before every home football game. The NCAA claims these are not derogatory depictions because the Illini people and the Seminole people approve of the use of the name and mascot. Inexplicably, the NCAA fails to accept the tribal vote and the sacred religious ceremony as endorsements of the name "Fighting Sioux" by the North Dakota Sioux Nation. The NCAA's actions violate Native American civil rights, equal protection rights, and religious rights.

The suit has been brought by the Spirit Lake Tribe's Committee of Understanding and Respect on behalf of the Spirit Lake Tribe, and by former Standing Rock Tribal Council member Archie Fool Bear on behalf of the more than 1000 members of the Standing Rock Tribe who signed a petition to reaffirm their support for the use of the name "Fighting Sioux".

Neither party has taken this step lightly. Indeed, it could possibly have been avoided had the NCAA only listened to the Dakota Sioux people, and recognized that the use of the Fighting Sioux name and likeness by UND for the past 80 years has been honorable and in keeping with Dakota Sioux culture and traditions. It is the NCAA who has dragged this matter out. They have had several opportunities since 2005 to realize their policy was in error, and either rescind it or grant UND an exception. The NCAA chose not to, and left the Dakota Sioux people no choice but to bring this legal action against them.

[Gothamite]

Yeah, I read that.

Again, doesn't mean that the suit has any merit. Theyre claiming that the tribal council doesn't have the power to deny a license, and that the 1969 license is binding.

Perhaps they're right. But the 2011 Standing Rock council declined to affirm the license. And so the NCAA is well within its right to prohibit the name in lieu of a current agreement.

Bringing the Seminoles and Illini into this is a very strong emotional argument, but actually works against them logically. Those tribes recently granted a license to use their name, something that the two Sioux license holders did not both do. So it actually undermines the claim rather than supporting it.

Again, once you strip out all the hyperbole, the issues aren't actually all that complicated.

The University could not get both tribes to sign a licensing agreement. Standing Rock now refuses to consent. Spirit Lake is hoping that the unofficial consent given forty years ago (to a slightly different issue) is still binding. We'll see.

[Hontas]

[Removed]

[Armadillo]

The hell?

[Gothamite]

Yeah, I read that.

Again, doesn't mean that the suit has any merit. Theyre claiming that the tribal council doesn't have the power to deny a license, and that the 1969 license is binding.

Perhaps they're right. But the 2011 Standing Rock council declined to affirm the license. And so the NCAA is well within its right to prohibit the name in lieu of a current agreement.

Bringing the Seminoles and Illini into this is a very strong emotional argument, but actually works against them logically. Those tribes recently granted a license to use their name, something that the two Sioux license holders did not both do. So it actually undermines the claim rather than supporting it.

Again, once you strip out all the hyperbole, the issues aren't actually all that complicated.

The University could not get both tribes to sign a licensing agreement. Standing Rock now refuses to consent. Spirit Lake is hoping that the unofficial consent given forty years ago (to a slightly different issue) is still binding. We'll see.

You might want to discover girls.

That's cute. Not in any way relevant to the conversation at hand, but cute.

I am well acquianted with the existence of girls. Just ask my wife.

Now, care to set down that rapier wit and make a substantive comment on the intellectual property issues?

[Hontas]

Maybe you should.

After 15070 posts, you might want to reintroduce yourself.

[BigMac12]

Slightly ot: Does the North Dakota fight song have to change too?

[Gothamite]

Maybe you should.

After 15070 posts, you might want to reintroduce yourself.

15071 and counting, now.

As gratifying to my ego as your interest in me is, I'm not particularly the issue here. Have you a substantive comment on the intellectual property rights?

[-kj]

Maybe you should.

After 15070 posts, you might want to reintroduce yourself.

Perhaps the editing of your first post didn't get it across, so let me be more blunt:

Personal attacks are not welcome on this board. This thread is not about Gothamite; it's about North Dakota.

Thank you.