The 2013 NHL Season Thread

[crashcarson15]

Does "the Lightning are 8th in the league in average attendance, averaging over 19,000 per game?" work for you?

And why should the teams care if the tickets are actually used? It's all about, well, how many you sell...

[The_Admiral]

They should consider firing Dr. Detroit and hiring a general manager who doesn't strike out on minor league coaches and doesn't trade high-producing cost-controlled scorers for replaceable assets. I mean seriously; what the hell did he learn in Detroit? How to make pizza in a square pan?

Well, Detroit is home to Little Caesars, so...

1) As correctly stated, that product is not pizza

2) Detroit-style pizza, which is generally agreed to be legitimate, is indeed traditionally baked in a square pan

3) You corrected what you thought was my mistake but was not, which was not to capitalize the first letter of a follow-up question that on its own is a sentence fragment, and is thus left uncapitalized for effect. Even when I do make real typographical errors, they are intended. Do not tamper with my work plz thx

[dbadefense1990]

Does "the Lightning are 8th in the league in average attendance, averaging over 19,000 per game?" work for you?

And why should the teams care if the tickets are actually used? It's all about, well, how many you sell...

See, I have no beef with the Lightning franchise. They fall into the latter category of Sun Belt NHL teams, with decent to loyal followings and knowledge of hockey (them and the Predators). And I'd be more pissed should they exit Florida and relocate before the Panthers do.

But my point was that pinning the loyalty on attendance capacity is kind of flawed. It's the bottom line for franchises to sell tickets and not care if they were used, but it can't be the difinitive source of evidence for proving loyalty. This is especially true for the NFL, and its notorious blackout policy; you have teams who compromise their seating capacity for a "sellout" (Jaguars), and there are teams who allow a blackout to happen because they won't buy out the remaining set of tickets (Chargers).

[Kramerica Industries]

The Lightning's 2011 playoff run is not viewed as a fluke in retrospect.

Everyone knew it was a fluke while it was going on. That's part of what made it so enjoyable; Washington pistol-whipped that team during the regular season, but then couldn't buy a break in the playoff series. It was akin to the woefully overmatched 2003 Mighty Ducks making the playoff run they did, and it was no surprised they crashed back to earth the following season.

[The_Admiral]

It doesn't really rustle my jimmies that Tampa has a team, for the record. I don't mind southern markets. I don't mind small markets. I do mind small southern markets: Nashville and Raleigh, that means you, which have roughly the same population as Hartford and Milwaukee with none of the common sense of staging hockey there. I'm also not fond of massive failures of the corporate-governmental complex, but that's obvious by now!

[BigBubba]

Does "the Lightning are 8th in the league in average attendance, averaging over 19,000 per game?" work for you?

And why should the teams care if the tickets are actually used? It's all about, well, how many you sell...

It's nice that Tampa Bay manages to sell tickets. However, that doesn't change the fact that they lost $13M last year. Now I'm not saying we should go and relocate them, but they're not as well off as you're making them sound.

[IceCap]

Does "the Lightning are 8th in the league in average attendance, averaging over 19,000 per game?" work for you?

And why should the teams care if the tickets are actually used? It's all about, well, how many you sell...

It's nice that Tampa Bay manages to sell tickets. However, that doesn't change the fact that they lost $13M last year. Now I'm not saying we should go and relocate them, but they're not as well off as you're making them sound.

Yeah, and their attendance is streaky. Get the fans excited, and they show up. Suck for an extended period of time and they don't. Given the direction the team is heading in it won't shock me in the least if those ticket sales dry up. They did between 2008-2010, after all. The new owner got fans to invest in the team again, but that's not going to last if they continue to suck.

[Kramerica Industries]

Basically what I said earlier, but there's a couple things to that:

1) Attendance tends to suck in most markets if a team sucks for an extended period of time. Few markets are like Toronto.

2) The Lightning were run by the two biggest douchebags of the past decade during those years. Oren Koules and Len Barrie alienated the market with some of the most mind-numbing management of the team that has been seen in recent years in the league. Hiring Barry Melrose, which was an obvious PR stunt and not a hockey-related move, forcing Dan Boyle to be traded months after signing a six year extension, trading Matt Carle after 12 games, the rumours that they had a deal with the Rangers to trade Stamkos during his rookie season...

I mean, holy . Who would support a team like that, other than degenerates like myself? With a market like Tampa, you always have to be looking for ways to grow the fanbase, because it's always going to be on the small end, comparatively speaking. And what those two did accomplished everything but growing the fanbase. Without doing full research on the matter, I still consider a true stroke of luck that they were not victims of relocation like the Thrashers were just a year later. Hockey was dead and for a good reason here.

[IceCap]

The "not every market is like Toronto" stuff is getting old. And please note I'm not picking on you, just venting my frustration that someone feels the need to bring it up every time I point about another team's attendance issues.

I do know that not every market is like Toronto, but that's kind of the problem, isn't it? That the NHL wasted time putting teams in as un-Toronto-like markets as possible when they should have been "growing the game" in the markets that were more Toronto-like. On top of that the more successful non-traditional markets have successfully carved out a niche. Anaheim and the San Francisco Bay Area will never be like Toronto in terms of NHL fan support, but the teams there have established loyal, dedicated fans. I'm sure there are passionate Lightning fans (or so their commercials about slow motion face paint would have me believe) but are there enough of them to say that a niche like, say, the Ducks have exists in the Tampa Bay area? The attendance trends are scary. When the fanbase isn't excited they plummet.

Ultimately I think the Lightning are immune from relocation discussion because of, well, luck. The team was awful when they were owned by the Yakuza, but they were saved by the Davidson Palace group that provided enough financial stability to keep the team viable. Couple that with a Cup win during the Davidson years and no one was going to suggest moving this team. Then just as things got to a low point again with the Saw idiots they were bought by Vinik who used excellent PR and a fluke playoff run to get fans excited again. Every time things get to a point where relocation seems like it may start becoming a viable option something happens to charge up the fanbase to take it off the table. Unlike the last idiots who owned the team Vinik has money so there's certainly stability there. Who knows what will happen if the fanbase turns on the team again though.

They're two points out. Cool it with the Thrasher BS.

The Thrashers were always like 2-4 points out of the playoff race with a handful of games left.

The Jets are gonna win 3 of their last 6 games and finish in 10th in the East.

I've been posting here long enough to remember what the NHL discussion re: Winnipeg was like before it became apparent that a new Jets team could be viable. Simply put it was a very anti-Winnipeg environment. If someone back then had refereed to the Coyotes as the Jets every time they posted about that team they would have been ridiculed by people who would have wasted no time in reminding them that the Jets were gone and were never coming back because the NHL never would have considered the market if not for the WH....yadda yadda yadda.

Point being that the Thrashers stuff was fine last year, but it's going to get more and more annoying the further we get away from the 2010-11 season. And lest you think that's just me I'd wager you'll have plenty of people here rolling their eyes at you should be referring to the Jets as the Thrashers come the 2017-18 NHL season.

[Kramerica Industries]

In regards to Anaheim and San Jose, however, how much of that do you think is a byproduct of being much more successful franchises on a routine basis?

San Jose beat the #1 seed, 100 point Detroit Red Wings in the playoffs in just their second third season in the league, one of the biggest upsets in league history. They followed that up with a 2/7 upset of Calgary in the '95 playoffs. They've been to the playoffs, I believe, 15 times in their 20 seasons in the league, and look to be on their way there this year as well. Besides the fact that the Bay Area is a fantastic sports area, especially with their rich football history, it should be no surprise fans were immediately drawn to a successful franchise. San Jose hasn't missed the playoffs in 10 years.

I'm naturally biased on this particular topic, and hypocritical as well. I rag on Tampa Bay sports fans given how poorly the Rays are supported (though I acknowledge that the Trop and locale play a large role in that) but I am quick to defend the same region on hockey matters. What I gather personally is that there is a pretty decent hockey base here, but with some of the awful ownership groups in the past, which have no-so-coincidentally coincided with some extended stretches of abysmal hockey (the Lightning from about 1998-2001 were hideously awful; losing 55, 54, 48, and 47 games). Couple that with the fact that Buccaneers are historically awful, and the Rays were awful for the first decade of their existence, and what your left with is a sports market that is, really, just been beaten down by losing all the damn time. The Lightning have actually still done a solid job with sellouts this season despite their wretched play, and I have no doubt that if they continue to suck, that attendance will begin to dry up. I'm just glad that Jeffrey Vinik is doing what he can to try and keep the fan base somewhat interested, with the privately financed renovations in 2011 and 2012 of the TBT Forum and interest in expanding his empire locally. He's clearly not the problem. He's willing to spend up to the cap limit. But, once again, it appears the Lightning have hockey people running the operation that are of questionable credentials, at best. Yzerman looked like a mad genius after the 2011 season, and hasn't looked nearly as smart since then.

(PS - Capper, clear some PM space.)

[IceCap]

I like Jeffrey Vinik because he seems like the ideal sports team owner. Independently wealthy, a willingness to improve his team's arena situation without holding local governments hostage trying to get tax subsidies thrown his way, and a willingness to delegate hockey-related tasks to people who know hockey (ie he doesn't want to become the NHL's version of Jerry Jones). And from what I've seen out the team since he took over he's committed to trying to establish his team's own traditions, rituals, and identity. Which is exactly what he should be doing if this team is going to hope to have that solid niche fanbase that the Sharks and Ducks can count on.

His only blunders have been Yzerman and Boucher, and even then he had the right idea. He just didn't hire the right people. And despite whatever reputation I might have, I do think the league is better off with a solid Florida presence (just not one in a division with Toronto and Boston ). It's just that the fanbase trends scare me.

[Kramerica Industries]

I said it sarcastically after one Lightning loss about a month or so ago, but I mean it with full seriousness right now:

The Tampa Bay Lightning. At least we're not the Panthers.

It's Worse & Worser in the state of Florida, and the Lightning are merely Worse.

[HedleyLamarr]

They're two points out. Cool it with the Thrasher BS.

The Thrashers were always like 2-4 points out of the playoff race with a handful of games left.

The Jets are gonna win 3 of their last 6 games and finish in 10th in the East.

I've been posting here long enough to remember what the NHL discussion re: Winnipeg was like before it became apparent that a new Jets team could be viable. Simply put it was a very anti-Winnipeg environment. If someone back then had refereed to the Coyotes as the Jets every time they posted about that team they would have been ridiculed by people who would have wasted no time in reminding them that the Jets were gone and were never coming back because the NHL never would have considered the market if not for the WH....yadda yadda yadda.

Point being that the Thrashers stuff was fine last year, but it's going to get more and more annoying the further we get away from the 2010-11 season. And lest you think that's just me I'd wager you'll have plenty of people here rolling their eyes at you should be referring to the Jets as the Thrashers come the 2017-18 NHL season.

Not that I really care if I'm an annoyance to you or not....

Point being, as long as the roster contains such stiffs as Bogosian, Hainsey, Thorburn, Slater, and waiver claims of crap players from crap teams, the Jets are going to do what they did as the Thrashers did annually since the first lockout....do just enough to finish 10th in the East. Until they get some real players and some semblance of a defense, they're going to keep chasing their tails and poop their pants.

Their address and uniforms changed, but they're still playing like the Thrashers always played. Therefore, the stigma of "they're still the Thrashers" applies, much to your dismay.

Not that I was calling them the Thrashers in that post to begin with.

[IceCap]

EDIT- Never mind. Walkin' on sunshine here.

[Sport]

The Nashville Predators are useless.

[FGM13]

With today's loss, the Lightning have now clinched a losing record for the 14th time in their 20 year franchise history.

They've only finished above .500 once in the past six seasons, and that's also the same number of times they've made the playoffs in that span.

They are 9-24 this season against the Eastern Conference teams not based in Sunrise and Raleigh. And they are 11-24 since their sizzling 6-1 start to the season.

Yay. Another year of hockey right down the drain.

Unbelievable. They've sucked for nearly 3/4 of their entire franchise history...and yet Tampa generally gets relocation immunity because of one good year (2004) and another really lucky playoff run now seen in retrospect as a fluke (2011).

To use a common acronym in these boards...OITGDNHL.

They get relocation immunity because they're playing to 99.2% capacity.

OIAGDDBADP. (Only In A God-Damned dbadefense1990 Post)

I don't think it really matters what the seating capacity is. In today's sports economics, there are leagues who are ready to ship franchises to other cities despite full capacity attendances (NFL, NBA), and there are leagues where sucky franchises are given crutch after crutch after crutch to stay afloat with no fan support (NHL). Besides, seating capacity figures only tally the number of tickets sold; I have not heard of a league, or team, or technology which can accurately track the actual attendance at a game (how many of those tickets sold were actually scanned and used).

And what the hell is OIAGDDBADP?

I assume it means only in a god damn dbadefense post?

[charger77]

Steve Tambellini fired, MacTavish to take his place and Scott Howsen will take MacTavish's place.

[crashcarson15]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

[Lee.]

Tambellini was the least of that team's problems. Good luck with Howson, Edmonton.

[The_Admiral]

Howson wasn't too bad in the Oilers' organization the first time around. Maybe he's just not capable of being in charge.