Stadium/Arena Saga Omnibus

[The_Admiral]

I don't want to be seen as backing down from my initial prediction that this would fall apart, or as Kubler-Rossing my way through bargaining, but I can envision a scenario in which the "certainty" that the A's play in Sacramento becomes a limited schedule of home games with a good chunk of the dates booted back to the Oakland Coliseum--basically speedrunning the Islanders' Barclays/Nassau split. From there, they either straddle Northern California until Las Vegas is ready or Fisher is made to sell the team. But it seems clear that you can't stage a full major-league schedule in Sacramento.

[FrutigerAero]

On 9/6/2024 at 8:31 AM, BBTV said:

Plot twist: the Sixers are “altering the deal” to say that despite their claim of asking for $0 public money, they want a clause that says that if ANY arena built in the city gets public dollars, then they get a payment for the same amount of public money. 
 

I don’t think arenas should get public dollars, but this could be a poison pill because it ensures that NO future arena can get any public money because that money would essentially be double. It’s not likely that a new arena will be built within the next 20 years, but to me, this was a plan the whole time so that they can now guarantee that they won’t be approved but still say “hey we tried… see ya”. 

RIP James Earl Jones

[FrutigerAero]

So this is how it is: currently, the Sacramento AAA field has grass, but they are putting in artificial turf for next season?

 

The simple solution to me is to play July games at Oracle Park or something like that.

 

The Athletics move has been so bungled though. They haven't even given us proper renderings of the ballpark yet. Fisher should take the L and sell. Maybe the Nike guy will buy them and move them to portland.

[The_Admiral]

26 minutes ago, FrutigerAero said:

So this is how it is: currently, the Sacramento AAA field has grass, but they are putting in artificial turf for next season?

 

The simple solution to me is to play July games at Oracle Park or something like that.

 

That still doesn't account for clubhouse accommodations, training facilities, and other amenities that major leaguers are expected to receive.

 

1994, the roof of the Kingdome fell in and cancelled the rest of the Mariners' home games. Easy solution would have been to move the rest of the games to BC Place in Vancouver, which at the time was basically a carbon copy of the Metrodome, right? Nope, players' union wouldn't allow it and the M's had to play the rest of their home games at their opponents' parks. Sucked for them (but it was '94, so the end of the season certainly got worse), but on some level I get it. And unlike the building of the Armadillo Opera House or whatever, it wasn't as if there was uncertainty about the roof ever getting repaired.

[FrutigerAero]

20 minutes ago, The_Admiral said:

 

That still doesn't account for clubhouse accommodations, training facilities, and other amenities that major leaguers are expected to receive.

 

1994, the roof of the Kingdome fell in and cancelled the rest of the Mariners' home games. Easy solution would have been to move the rest of the games to BC Place in Vancouver, which at the time was basically a carbon copy of the Metrodome, right? Nope, players' union wouldn't allow it and the M's had to play the rest of their home games at their opponents' parks. Sucked for them (but it was '94, so the end of the season certainly got worse), but on some level I get it. And unlike the building of the Armadillo Opera House or whatever, it wasn't as if there was uncertainty about the roof ever getting repaired.

That makes sense. I'll admit I'm not going to be aware of amenities I as a fan don't ever see. I assume those are the biggest holdups.

[BBTV]

1 hour ago, FrutigerAero said:

The simple solution to me is to play July games at Oracle Park or something like that.

 

That is anything but a simple solution.

[BBTV]

Is this now a general relocation / stadium situation thread?  If so, more on the Sixers saga:

 

Was talking with a friend who up until this year has had to work with city government on funding and safety things, mostly related to non-vehicular transit, but the point is that with his various jobs, he knows some things from the inside about how some of these stadium deals and decisions are made, at least here (though he never dealt with the current mayor or council, but did work with some of the folks that are involved at some level with the recommendations.)

 

That may or may not mean anything, just that this is a little more than two doofuses BSing over some beers.  He believes that Josh Harris' plan the entire time was to spend 10s of millions of dollars "faking" plans for the arena, all in an attempt to extort New Jersey, who has recently upped the ante to the tune of $800M.  So he's going from offering to privately finance a nearly $2B project, to getting $800M for a significantly-less-expensive project... oh, and the rights to develop an entertainment district (which he obviously couldn't do in the middle of Center City, other than some token apartment tower for poor people which he doesn't intend to actually build.)

 

The last minute "poison pill" he added on to the Phila deal basically make it very hard for it to be approved (in addition to the studies... including theirs, which say "lol this is dumb") and every day the city gets closer to a decision, NJ throws more freebees at him.

 

So he's getting his discounted stadium in NJ, along with development rights (which will require either building around dilapidated-yet-occupied row homes or eminent-domaining them), and (to my knowledge... I could be wrong) even if the city approves his plan, nothing is binding and he can still take NJ's offer.

 

He also tricked Comcast into pay tons to astroturf, but also to fund legitimate protests and paying people to get everyone riled up with unsubstantiated claims that the arena will lead to so much death that the city won't have enough room to bury the bodies and will need to build a large crematory.  The cynic in me thinks that he wanted  Comcast to get them denied, so he could be like "hey... I tried".

 

This could obviously all be wrong, but more and more I think the plan from day 0 was to extort NJ.  And he's succeeded.

 

The NJ Economic Development Authority released these renders, which are completely not official (they're not provided by the team or even actual architects) and include amenities that would take decades to build, and displace poor af people, over top of a former prison.

 

The stadium is similar to the one the Sixers wanted on the Philly side of the river (along with full development rights, for which they lost a legit bidding war, but at least was a good-faith effort to stay in the city).

 

Again, this is not released by the team, and is simply NJ putting their pie-in-the-sky vision out there.

 

 

 

To compare, here's the latest official rendering of the "Chinatown Massacre" that is 76 Place:

1. Shows the poor tower, which won't actually be what they say it is, and nobody that's in that class could actually afford to live there anyway due to other expenses that come along with living in that area)

 

 

But whatever, that area has been a dumpster fire literally my whole life, so something is better than nothing, and I don't give AF about the suburbanites that are scared of trains and subways and can't understand how cities work.

 

I do care about sidewalk congestion, and think the team's suggestion of widening the sidewalks is hysterical, since they literally can't.  I also don't care about parking, and that'll work itself out once people realize how stupid driving is unless you have some accessibility issue that may necessitate it.  I also care a lot about Chinatown, but still haven't, despite the studies, seen anything concrete that shows for sure it'll kill it.  If I'm wrong, then I'll be extremely disappointed and the fabric of the city will be changed forever.

 

[VampyrRabbit]

15 hours ago, The_Admiral said:

I don't want to be seen as backing down from my initial prediction that this would fall apart, or as Kubler-Rossing my way through bargaining, but I can envision a scenario in which the "certainty" that the A's play in Sacramento becomes a limited schedule of home games with a good chunk of the dates booted back to the Oakland Coliseum--basically speedrunning the Islanders' Barclays/Nassau split. From there, they either straddle Northern California until Las Vegas is ready or Fisher is made to sell the team. But it seems clear that you can't stage a full major-league schedule in Sacramento.

Problem with going back to Oakland (well, one of them) is that the Oakland Roots are going to be playing their 2025 season in the Coliseum.  That is a lot of work that is going to be needed converting the surface from soccer to baseball (and vice versa) so many times.

[Danny the Sheeb]

This is officially the most bungled relocation in major sports history, and they haven't even left Oakland yet.  Nobody wants them, they STILL don't have a concrete plan for the stadium in Vegas, and their only real option right now is to play for an indefinite period of time in a death trap.

 

Maybe wishful thinking, but if the Sacramento thing falls through, I don't think MLB will tolerate much more of this chicanery.

[The_Admiral]

5 hours ago, VampyrRabbit said:

Problem with going back to Oakland (well, one of them) is that the Oakland Roots are going to be playing their 2025 season in the Coliseum.  That is a lot of work that is going to be needed converting the surface from soccer to baseball (and vice versa) so many times.

 

If the new Coliseum owners want to negotiate with the A's, which Boras indicated that they do, then that won't be as much of a problem. 

[BBTV]

Mayor endorses the Sixers arena, despite more protests. Claims that a “deal has been reached”, implying that there’s some things that haven’t yet been made public. Possibly some guardrails to protect Chinatown, but we all know that those guardrails will be bypassed nearly immediately.  
 

Goes to council now, where it likely wont be voted on until early December. Her “reaching an agreement” just means that it can get sent to council, not that it actually is approved in any binding way. I’m pretty sure she can’t unilaterally go against council for something like this, but she already has done that for other things. 

[GDAWG]

33 minutes ago, BBTV said:

Mayor endorses the Sixers arena, despite more protests. Claims that a “deal has been reached”, implying that there’s some things that haven’t yet been made public. Possibly some guardrails to protect Chinatown, but we all know that those guardrails will be bypassed nearly immediately.  
 

Goes to council now, where it likely wont be voted on until early December. Her “reaching an agreement” just means that it can get sent to council, not that it actually is approved in any binding way. I’m pretty sure she can’t unilaterally go against council for something like this, but she already has done that for other things. 

And once that is finalized, the ownership of the Sixers will focus on a new stadium for one of the other two pro sports teams that they own: the Washington Commanders.  

[GhostOfNormMacdonald]

What are the chances the Commies jump to NoVa? They'll never be in DC proper, right?

[tBBP]

1 hour ago, GhostOfNormMacdonald said:

What are the chances the Commies jump to NoVa? They'll never be in DC proper, right?

 

I mean, if they can get some entity to blow up RFK and rebuild on that site, that'd probably be the best option, would it not? I mean, as it is now, RFK is just sitting there collecting weeds, rats, roaches and all other manner of vermin. But then, I ain't any kind of expert on these kinds of matters,  so I'll defer to the smart people who are on this one...

[GDAWG]

3 hours ago, GhostOfNormMacdonald said:

What are the chances the Commies jump to NoVa? They'll never be in DC proper, right?

 

If she's still in the Virginia legislature by then, Louise Lucas will shut down any deal for the Commanders in Northern Virginia.  She was the one who said no to the proposed arena deal between Northern Virginia and Monumental Sports and Entertainment (Wizards and Capitals) that forced the Wizards and Caps to go back to DC for major renovations for their current place.   

[The_Admiral]

The team has been headquartered in Ashburn for years, though. They've put down some roots there, a Virginia stadium has been the white whale of the team and the state for years, and if new ownership asks for minimal help in making it happen, they probably could. Sizable difference between an NFL stadium in America's ghastliest suburban sprawl and trying to shoehorn an arena into Alexandria by shuttle-busing people in from the airport lot.

 

Anyway, back to America's sweethearts, the White Sox, who put down an actual field at Roosevelt/Clark to prove they can at least afford that part:

 

 

They invited lawmakers to play catch on the field and then they didn't go.

Quote

One suburban state representative told the Sun-Times they passed on the invite “because I don’t need a tour to know it would be awesome with that outfield skyline.
 

“Everyone knows this would be awesome. That doesn’t mean taxpayers should put up a dime for it,” the representative said, asking not to be named.

“People have been really clear on where they stand about the broader idea,” said downtown state Rep. Kam Buckner, D-Chicago, who missed the tour while campaigning in Georgia this week for Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris.

 

But look! You can see b u i l d i n g s! Look, there's that one! And then the other one!

[Sport]

Isn't the reason the current stadium faces southeast rather than northwest with the more aesthetically pleasing view is so that batters aren't looking directly into the sun at sunset? 

[The_Admiral]

That would make the most sense--I think just about every park faces somewhere from northeast to southeast for that reason (not to mention the grandstand staring into the sun).

 

Legend has it that it's oriented that way so that baseball would continue to be played "at the corner of 35th and Shields," but that never made any sense to me, because the park would be at that corner no matter where home plate was. As it is now, plebes can't enter from 35th/Shields anyway; you have to enter from the bleachers or from the annex across 35th.

[ZapRowsdower8]

https://www.wweek.com/news/city/2024/09/23/portland-diamond-project-in-late-stage-talks-to-buy-zidell-yards/
 

The Portland Diamond Project appears close to buying some waterfront land for a stadium. We’ve been down this road before though, so I wouldn’t hold my breath. 

[GDAWG]