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I am curious as I have read many posts over the past few months.....

It seems to me that the people on this board NEVER if rarely like any logos / uniforms designed by professionals and approved for league use, however many of the worst logos / uniforms concepts I see designed by the members of this board get nothing but praise and "cool, I like it!"(s).

Don't get me wrong, there are several solid professional quality designers, and other beginners with potential on this forum.

I am just curious, what other people's opinions are on this subject. For me, patronizing someone's design and giving them a false sense of talent, certainly wont prepare them for the real world of Design (sports, or otherwise).

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I tend not to comment at all on the bad concepts posted here, because so many people take it very personally.  Me, I want people to tell me why my stuff stinks.

As for the true professional stuff coming out... well, alot of them have stunk.  Just because it's done by someone who gets paid to do it doesn't mean it's going to automatically look good.

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In my case, I don't mind getting crticised for any work I've done (which are few in between). I have posted only a couple of designs since I've been here. The reason is that I don't have the time or ability to do any drawings on the computer. I mostly draw them by hand (and I do have plenty of designs). The fact is, I'm not a graphic designer by trade at all.

Just because someone likes a drawing on this board doesn't mean that the average fan would like it as well. I don't think the average fan cares at all. Some logos on this board are not professional looking, but we tend to give positive comments because we can sense the potential of it being a good logo.

I actually do like much of the stuff that professional designers make. The problem with them seems to be they're trying too hard sometimes to give a lot meanings into the logo. Take the Houston Rockets' new logo. I do like the simplicity of it, but the many meanings behind the design is what really turned me off.

Kinda like a relationship! Just Kidding! :D

In the end all the comments, good or bad, are subjective and are based on our tastes. No one logo is going to appeal to everyone and it shouldn't.

Chatper 2.....

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I hope that when people tell me my designs are good, that they mean it. It does me no good to hear "great job", if it truly sucks.

There is value in all designs that someone took time and effort to create. If someone just takes a template, throws a logo on it, and colors it red, sure, that sucks, and it will always suck. We all value our time, and don't want it wasted. So if someone takes the time to create a design they like, I say good job for the effort, regardless of the actual design.

I always voice my opinion. You don't have to like it, and you don't have to take anythng from it, but if you put up a design asking what others think of it, and I tell you it sucks, its just my opinion. I am sure that others out there would agree with me. At the same time, there are people who would disagree with me. I don't put my designs up on the site becasue I expect rave remarks and praise from everyone, everytime. I want to know how I can improve it, and the only way to do that is to hear reasons why it sucks.

So, NewYawkSeahawk, in regard to your question, I agree that giving people a false sense of talent is a waste of that persons time, and that everyone should say what they mean. That is why people post here, right?

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i try and tell what i really think to the "designers" on the board, some want to hear it, others don't. so if a design isnt that great, but has potential, i will make a comment like "good start" or "needs a little something else" to let them know i dont think its outstanding, but not truly horrible either.(although i have seen my share of those ones too, even produced them) .

As for what i want to hear, i want to hear the ugly, ugly, truth. i want to know if my designs are good/bad, what would help make them better than they are, and wether or not i should even go after this as a hobby, or future occupation. Overall i guess im just one of those people who likes hearing and telling the truth. sometimes people take it wrong, but it happens, and im sorry to anyone i've offened by it. :)

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I have to agree with you Seahawk, I do see alot of concepts that are well received even though the concept isnt all that great, but oh well, everyone has their opinions.

The only opinions that I cant stand is those of the stubborn and small minded.  Accept the concept for the idea, production and feel not because you hate a color, think the original logo doesnt need a change or its too radical.  Originality created all logos before and will continue to forever.

If my work sucks tell me, if its good tell me, but be specific.  Not just I like it.  The designer cant gain any insight with a broad comment.  I have gotten my fair share of negative remarks even though I believed my concept rocked, but u take those and move on and make the next better.

And for the record I am a Seahawk Fan from New York also.

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To anyone reading:

If I post a design, and it blows...TELL ME. I don't want to think that I have talent when I really don't. If it sucks, tear it to pieces. Blow it all to crap. I won't take anything personally, and it helps in the future. Likewise, if I comment on someone else's work and they don't like it, it's not meant personally either. Just had to let that be known  :D

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This is a good sort of "clear the air" type topic.

I don't think I've been shy about critiquing the postings on this board.  If they are terrible, I usually won't waste the time because there are more important things to do.  If I see any thing to run with, anything worth pursuing in an otherwise average design, I sometimes choose to focus on the positive and encourage the designer that way.

But I have even been so bold as to suggest modifications to everyone's new fav Nitroseed on his Sharks logo.  And he replied appreciating the time that went into that crit.  I think every designer craves praise and admiration, but knows when it's being laid on too thick.  We also crave intelligent critique to help us get better and see the things we are sitting too close to see.

I thought the critical analysis of my last concept...the Milwaukee Bucks one, was outstanding.  Well thought out suggestions, combined with a consensus on a few of the flaws.  Add to that the uniform praise of the wordmark which I had no strong feelings about. It really helped me out a lot and I appreciate the efforts of everyone who posted on that thread.

As for why we all pat each other on the back and rip on the pros?  The pros aren't all bad..it's human nature to focus on differences as opposed to similarities.  Look at race, religion, sexual preference.  I don't think this will be the one forum on earth to stop that way of thinking.

For what its worth, while I've hated lots of new team identities, I've loved some too.

Buffalo Sabres..may not be a perfect fit, but the artwork is gorgeous

Tennessee Titans...I just dig it

Minnesota WIld...a lot going on, maybe too much green but inspired logo

Seahawks, BRILLIANT update of a neo-classic logo

Capitals, liked the blues better, but can't stop loving the whole thing

Thrashers - bowl of soup?  Bullfrog?? I dont know what it is but I love it.  Especially the secondary.

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Great topic, NYSEAHAWK

I work in advertising, but as a writer. I work with art directors, designers, photographers, web developers, et al, and I'm in awe of them. I wish I had the skills to do what they do, and I appreciate all the hard work that goes into the creation of a logo, uniform, etc.

When I comment on work that I see here, I apply the same technique when I'm collaborating on a project for work: I say what I like about it, i say what I don't like about it, and I give suggestions on ways to explore solutions.

To me, the best logos and designs are the ones that have stood the test of time (Yankees, Browns, Packers, Bears, Celtics, Raiders) and the ones that come from the heart, flaws and all (old Brewers, Oakland A's, old Broncos, old Patriots, old Bullets, old Jazz)

I think that the worst designs and logos come from the focus-group mentality. The marketing people. The folks who sat around and decided that people really like teal so they corrupted the Jazz, the Mariners, and created the god-awful Carolina Panthers designs. The people who think that the Falcons' logo needs to look "digital." What a joke.

Rant over.

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Things shouldnt be taken so seriously.

I'd estimate most of the designers on this board arent employed as artists- myself included. Its more of a fan board. most of us are here because we like logos- possibly too much.

as for the issue of pro designers making better sports logos, I dont necessarily agree. These guys obviously draw better than most but I think most of them follow fashion trends too much and make designs that are too busy as sports logos.

The best sports logos are simple and look good in any era, whether its the 50's or 2003. I dont think its a coincidence that the top sports logos in all polls were mostly created decades previous, most often by non graphic artists.

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Here's my two-cents on this topic.

I don't like poorly designed logos. Period.

We obviously have to concede that professional designers and aspiring amateurs are going to have different levels of ability and training, as well as a differeing level of sophistication with regard to the facilities, equipment and man-power at their disposal. We also need to be aware of the varying degrees of ability, training and equipment amongst the regular posters to this board. In other words, each piece of work must be considered individually based on the designer's circumstances.

That said, in my book here's something that doesn't vary: Whether we are talking about the work of a professional or an amateur, I think that the person designing the logo needs to aspire to a top-notch result. Whether the finished product is being unveiled by professionals as part of a marketing/merchandising campaign, or simply being offered up by our board-mates for general interest/entertainment purposes, I feel that we in the audience need to be "respected". That is, the designers need to "earn" our attention - and compliments - by having the "respect" to put in their absolute best effort. A designer shouldn't expect me to graciously give his/her logo my time and attention if said designer's creative process didn't consist of a commensurate amount of time and attention.

You see, there aren't many things that rile me up more than the phrase, "Here's something I just threw together." I can't speak for everyone, but as far as I'm concerned, the response to that excuse is, "Don't." Don't just throw something together. Take your time. Work it and rework it. Acknowledge that one of the reasons that you post designs out here is to receive a reaction, then go and put in the time and effort to get the reaction that you want.

Let's face facts. We've all got an interest in the logo design process. We know that it takes time. That's the main reason I haven't posted a design out here yet. I can't find the time in the day to put something together that I would have the audacity to take up your time with. When I do, I'll use that time constructively and hopefully the end result will be something that pleases people. However, I also need to recognize that not everyone is going to love it. Why? Because personal tastes vary.      

Personally, I don't believe that anybody should be posting their work out here with an expectation that it's going to be universally praised. Frankly, I don't get the impression that many of the people placing designs on the board expect - or want - that, either. As long as the commentary isn't mean-spirited simply for the sake of being mean-spirited, I honestly believe that everything truly works out fine.

The biggest thing to remember is that a lot of the give-and-take on this board is going to be dictated by human nature and personal opinion. Each of us has their own personal tastes as to what they believe constitutes an outstanding logo design, professional or amateur. That's going to be reflected in our criticism.

The manner in which we critique is also dictated by personal parameters. I'm sure that there are people out here who just don't have a truly "critical" bone in their body, and they're going to tend to lean towards pointing out the positives in a design, while largely steering clear of pointing out the flaws. Others can be rather direct in their assessments, both good and bad. Again, as long as the comments are backed up with the reasoning behind them, I truly believe that even the most pointed of critiques will be taken in stride by the artist.

Bottom line: I judge each logo I see - professional or amateur - individually. I want the logo to show me that time, effort and skill went into the mix. Period.

Brian in Boston

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Hmmmm...... don't just throw something together? Actually, some of my best hand drawn work come from something that is just thrown together. Sometimes, when I duplicate that, it actually looks worse than the original!

Why not just throw something together? It's art. Doing something without much thought might actually end up being some your best work, EVER!

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Yeah!! I agree with quadival, if anyone wants to show their work even if it looks like crap , we should be able to. Who cares if it doesn't take a lot of time, there's a time limit now?

I personally would like to see all designs good or bad, we aren't pros, I dont care, I just want to see ideas. As many as I can period.

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quadival... cuss... you're misunderstanding what I wrote.

I specifically said that we have to judge each design on its own merits, taking into consideration who has designed it, as well as what that artist's personal circumstances (training, experience, skill, resources, etc) are.

I also said that each person's opinion as to what constitutes a quality logo, as well as the manner in which they critique work, is going to be dictated by that individual's personal parameters.

That said, I personally feel that people should be posting their best work out here. Why? Because, I personally feel that people are looking for a response to their work when they post. I personally feel that, unless we're all masochists, the responses we're generally looking for in life are acceptance and praise. I personally feel that the best way to insure that you receive such a response is by posting the aforementioned "best work". I personally feel that the best way to achieve such work is by putting in the requisite time, thought and effort necessary to do so. These are all my personal opinions.

All of that said, there may be people on this board who do their best work quickly. There may be people whose concepts only get progressively worse the more time they put into them. In which case, I hope that they ignore my personal opinion speed and their way to brilliance! However, it has been my experience that the posted logos I have personally found to be wanting in some way or another, have often been criticized as such... both by me AND others. Many times, those artists receiving the critique will explain away the criticisms with something along the lines of, "Well...I threw it together and was going to work on it some more later." All well and good, but I'm not seeing it "later". I'm seeing it "now". "Now", when by their very statement (or something similar) the artists in question have admitted that their work wasn't quite ready.

So, in conclusion, I'm not suggesting to anyone that they not post their work out here when the darn well please. By no means is there a "time limit". I'm just saying that I believe most, if not all, of the artists out here want an honest critique of their efforts. If I should think that the logo in question is wanting in some regard - including technique, time and/or effort - I'm going to say so. As honestly, tactfully and constructively as i possibly can. And my personal criteria for judging projects may include comments on what appears to be rushed work.

Just don't take it personally.         :D

Brian in Boston

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I don't know about you guys, but all of my designs have flaws that I don't see when I first finish. But, I don't put the design out there unless I feel that it reflects my efforts, flaws and all. My designs may not look the best when compared to others, but it is my best. Sure, maybe I could make it better, but that is where the voices of others helps me get better. If the crap was never seen, then how can anyone better their art? I am not saying everyone should throw their stuff on the board so that we can spend our time shuffling through mounds of crap; but if someone has a design they feel is worth the time, then I say let them suffer the rath of our opinions.

Besides, I need to know how to get better so I can start getting paid for my crap.

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