Game 2 controversy

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Ha ha...that's hilarious. One of the things I like about baseball is that there are so many ways to cheat -- pine tar, spitballs, stealing signs, etc.

I've got no dog in this fight, so I really don't care whether or not Rogers is cheating. In fact, I wouldn't mind if he came back and pitched a game 7 for the win. Let's give people something to talk about in this otherwise unattractive matchup.

[LMU]

The problem with these pictures is that the contrast of the TV makes it look far more prominant than it really was.

Bottom line though is that a couple screen captures isn't enough evidence to go back and hand out some sort of after-the-fact punishment. La Russa didn't do a damn thing to challenge it, so be it dirt or pine tar, what's done is done. End of controversy.

[STL FANATIC]

The problem with these pictures is that the contrast of the TV makes it look far more prominant than it really was.

Bottom line though is that a couple screen captures isn't enough evidence to go back and hand out some sort of after-the-fact punishment. La Russa didn't do a damn thing to challenge it, so be it dirt or pine tar, what's done is done. End of controversy.

Again, not La Russa's job. La Russa's option, and I wish he had done more, but not his job.

This is the job of the MLB and the umps to keep the game clean.

If there was enough evidence to eject and suspend for 10 games Julian Tavarez of having pine tar on his cap and doctoring balls when the cap was tested to have dirt, rosin, and sweat by the team, the cap was not confiscated, balls weren't confiscated, and there were no shots of Tavarez rubbing up balls with whatever was on his cap....well, then there is more than enough evidence to suspend Rogers for the rest of the World Series.

Far more than enough.

But the MLB is trying to sweep this under the rug. No surprise.

[STL FANATIC]

Another photo from ESPN.

"Kenny Rogers' pitching hand during Game 3 of the ALCS (left) and in the first inning of Sunday's Game 2 of the World Series. The lefty appears to have a similar-looking brown substance on his hand in both instances."

And here's the link to the article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2006...tory?id=2635538

[LMU]

There was no direct evidence of pine tar, hence why the umpires didn't inspect his hand. All that existed was a dirty hand.

I again bring up the Brendan Donnelly suspension. Frank Robinson demanded that Donnelly's glove be inspected. La Russa did nothing.

And just having a dirty patch on a hand is not enough evidence. If the substance is in fact dirt, than what, you're going to suspend him for rubbing dirt on the ball?

The difference between here and Tavarez is that there was no in-game action taken, so you cannot retroactively discipline him for something that can not be proven, since a couple screen captures isn't going to give you a chemical analysis of what was on his hand.

So, if nothing can be proven, then let's stop the public execution. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Besides, if it was in fact pine tar, you'd think that it would be more than obvious that he was trying to remove it in the dugout, because pine tar would take quite a bit of effort to remove.

And, one more thing to consider... since Game 3 of the ALCS and Game 2 of the WS were both on freezing days in Detroit, perhaps he just rubbed some wet dirt for insulation/grip.

[Guest]

Dirt doesn't stain your hand with a yellowish tint.

[STL FANATIC]

There was no direct evidence of pine tar, hence why the umpires didn't inspect his hand. All that existed was a dirty hand.

I again bring up the Brendan Donnelly suspension. Frank Robinson demanded that Donnelly's glove be inspected. La Russa did nothing.

And just having a dirty patch on a hand is not enough evidence. If the substance is in fact dirt, than what, you're going to suspend him for rubbing dirt on the ball?

The difference between here and Tavarez is that there was no in-game action taken, so you cannot retroactively discipline him for something that can not be proven, since a couple screen captures isn't going to give you a chemical analysis of what was on his hand.

So, if nothing can be proven, then let's stop the public execution. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Besides, if it was in fact pine tar, you'd think that it would be more than obvious that he was trying to remove it in the dugout, because pine tar would take quite a bit of effort to remove.

LMU, c'mon...that's not dirt or mud. Dirt and mud doesn't look like that.

La Russa did talk to the umpires, and he doesn't have to press the issue. The umps saw the spot and failed to do their job by not checking it.

You can suspend without an ejection. Also, nothing was proven with Tavarez. The ump tossed him, but they had no chemical analysis. MLB didn't have the cap. The shots from the television are clear evidence. MLB knows it, but they'll ignore it. No combination of mud, dirt, sweat, rain, or rosin resembles what was on Rogers hands. Hence, it was a foreign substance, and MLB CAN use those photos as the evidence they need to suspend him. They won't though.

Also, notice how the spot didn't go away. It just got lighter. It would take a lot of effort to remove, and clearly Rogers didn't put that effort in as a clear residue remained.

I can't believe cheating is going to be allowed on baseball's biggest stage.

Oh, and one last thought. How does dirt and mud show up randomly in a near exact same formation in all three games Rogers has pitched in in the playoffs?

[FiddySicks]

What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Hmm, I was always under the assumption that didnt exist in baseball *coughsteriodcontraversarycough*

But thats for another thread, in another day.....

[Guest]

I don't understand why things didn't happen like this:

1. Someone tells La Russa that Kenny is using a foreign substance

2. La Russa hits the field to tell the umps to check Kenny's hand

3. Umps see this and throw Rogers out of the game.

I mean, this is what happened to Brendan Donnelly.

[LMU]

I have no idea what the stadium dirt/mud on a freezing Detroit day looks like. It could be pine tar, it could not be. But there isn't indisputible evidence that it was either.

And, again, Tavarez was ejected. Rogers wasn't. They were able to tack on a suspension for Tavarez because the prior ejection apparently filled the evidence quota. Here, you would have to rely on FOX broadcast footage, and that really can't be trusted since a lot of it is shot with a biased angle towards getting ratings. Plus, I was watching the game on HD, and the spot did appear to be gone in the end, as opposed to lightened.

I'm just being impartial here, because the last thing we need is for the controversy engine to rev up again for something that there's a suspicion of, but no indisputible proof.

If MLB can actually state that they have absolute proof that it was pine tar, I'd be fine with any disciplinary action. But, I will not stand for punishment just for appeasement of a mob out of pure suspicion when he wasn't even ejected from a game.

[Andy]

And just having a dirty patch on a hand is not enough evidence. If the substance is in fact dirt, than what, you're going to suspend him for rubbing dirt on the ball?

Yes. That is against the rules.

Methinks Kenny Rogers is going for some kind of secret sports bad guy award, there's no way someone can villify themselves so much without it being at least slightly intentional. Is there an ESPY for that or something?

[LMU]

And just having a dirty patch on a hand is not enough evidence. If the substance is in fact dirt, than what, you're going to suspend him for rubbing dirt on the ball?

Yes. That is against the rules.

Methinks Kenny Rogers is going for some kind of secret sports bad guy award, there's no way someone can villify themselves so much without it being at least slightly intentional. Is there an ESPY for that or something?

Not exactly. As stated on sportscenter, dirt is not a foreign substance. It is the playing surface.

[Andy]

Just for reference:

"According to rule 8.02(a)(2), (4) and (5), the pitcher shall not:

(2) expectorate on the ball, either hand or his glove;

(4) apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball; [or]

(5) deface the ball in any manner."

I don't think you can argue that rubbing dirt on the ball doesn't fall under "defacing the ball in any manner." Moreover, if you want to argue this:

"Rules 8.02(a)(2) through 8.02(a)(6) Comment: If a pitcher violates either Rule 8.02(a)(2) or Rule 8.02(a)(3) and, in the judgment of the umpire, the pitcher did not intend, by his act, to alter the characteristics of a pitched ball, then the umpire may, in his discretion, warn the pitcher in lieu of applying the penalty."

I suppose you could, but the pictures of Kenny Rogers hand having the EXACT SAME MYSTERIOUS SUBSTANCE in the EXACT SAME SPOT ON HIS PITCHING HAND in two seperate games are pretty damning, in my opinion. There be some doctorin' goin' on.

[ROCHitman]

Oh, and one last thought. How does dirt and mud show up randomly in a near exact same formation in all three games Rogers has pitched in in the playoffs?

Obviously, you don't know pitchers that well.

Major leagues, minor leagues, high school...It doesn't matter which level we're talking about.

Pitchers are superstitious and are constantly rubbing dirt/rosin on their hands while on the mound.

Would a veteran as tenured as Kenny Rogers be dumb enough to cheat on the world's stag and be so careless to reveal his cheating to the tv cameras? I doubt it.

By asking Rogers to clean his hand, that was essentially a warning as it is described in the rule book.

".....and, in the judgment of the umpire, the pitcher did not intend, by his act, to alter the characteristics of a pitched ball, then the umpire may, in his discretion, warn the pitcher in lieu of applying the penalty."

So you see, the umpire crew handled it correctly since LaRussa did not ask for Rogers to be checked.

I once read Shag Crawford (longtime ML umpire) say that the league wants to avoid ejections (players and managers) in the Word Series. Meaning, umpires are to be a little more leniant with managers arguing the strike zone and judgment calls. Of course, sometimes a manager or player could take it too far and the ejection warrented. Crawford was the first umpire to toss a manger in a WS in some 39 years or so after the first time it occurred. I have to believe that MLB takes the same stance on this today as it did back in Crwaford's day. Hence, Alfonso Marquez & Randy Marsh asked Rogers to clean it up, which he did, and the game went on.

If you want to blame somebody, the put it on MLB or umpire crew supervisor Steve Palermo. Marquez was obviously talking with Palermo about this early in the game and most lilely followed his advice. but the crew handled it the way it should have been handled.

It's a shame, that should Detroit win this series, that fans like STLFanatic will constantly remind us that Rogers "cheated" them out of Game 2 whether he was cheating or not.

[Epiphanic]

I'm not sure what what was on his hands tonight. I certainly looked like it could pine tar. However, the umpires decided it wasn't anything to be concerned about after they discussed it. They just instructed Rogers to wash his hands off for good measure. If he was cheating, then MLB screwed up big time. However, if the same stuff (foreign or non-foreign) was on his hand for the ALDS and ALCS, why wasn't this brought up then? Did people think that the Tigers weren't getting past the first round so they just said, "Heck with it?"

Yes, the officiating crew is human and they make mistakes, but they do not make mistakes often. If they thought it was something then action would have been taken. I'm comfortable with the result of tonight's game.

[Guest]

I once read Shag Crawford (longtime ML umpire) say that the league wants to avoid ejections (players and managers) in the Word Series.

But the NLCS is fair game, because Jim Edmonds got tossed in the middle of an at-bat last year.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Maybe he's got jaundice.

[Guest]

I mean, I think Jim Edmonds is a douche, as is my duty as a Cubs fan, but he got a raw deal there.

[FiddySicks]

Oh, and one last thought. How does dirt and mud show up randomly in a near exact same formation in all three games Rogers has pitched in in the playoffs?

Obviously, you don't know pitchers that well.

Major leagues, minor leagues, high school...It doesn't matter which level we're talking about.

Pitchers are superstitious and are constantly rubbing dirt/rosin on their hands while on the mound.

Yeah I thought about that, and that any pitcher who has consistantly tossed a certain style of pitches his entire career is bound to have dirt, grime, calluses, ect in the same spot, so I get that. but that being said, if your a pitcher who constantly tosses the same style, your gonna know where on your hands dirt will constantly appear. If this was the case, Rogers response wouldnt have been, "Durrr, I didunt evun knowed it wus dare." If your a pitcher you do two things. You look at your throwing hand constantly, and you know where your hands consistantly get dirty, sore, red, bruised, callused, ect ect. Nobody pays that little attention to their hands, especially professional pitchers

[pcgd]

Looks more like tobacco spit than pine tar to me. Doesn't look like dirt at all. Unless its dirt mixed with Pine Tar or Tobacco Spit.

My bet is that doctoring the balls is much more common than any of us believe. I have absolutly nothing to base this on, but I bet it happens.

It made me think of Julian Tavarez for sure.

I don't know if it was handled properly, but in most cases the umpires never do anything about this stuff unless the opposing manager asks. Just like checking hte curve in hockey. Once a manager/coach asks, the refs will check it, typically without question. LaRussa should have pressed the issue, but he didn't. I bet it had a huge part to do with his relationship with Leyand. I also bet that Leyland wouldn't have been upset had he pressed the issue. They are both old school and Leyland would have done the same thing if Spezio's Beard was scuffing up the balls.

He washed his hands and still pitched brilliantly. I'd hate to have the Cardinals win game 6 (if it gets there) because he was suspended with no proof, no ejection, nothing. If somehow they can prove he cheated (which is impossible) ok. But at the current time, nothing will come of it, and I bet his hands are squeaky clean for game 6.