Penguins Get Arena Deal Done

[Sodboy13]

According to radioandrecords.com, Pittsburgh is the #23 market in the United States, with an over-12 population of 2,015,100 in the metro area.

With the 10 points laid out by EZ Street, it seems like the only thing missing from the Pens' departure to KC is Mayflower trucks backing up to Mellon Arena in the middle of the night. Save an amazing about-face by government officials, this one looks to be done and done. I feel terrible for Pittsburgh fans, who are about to get their team yanked out from under them just as it's showing signs of a return to glory. Pens fans have every right to be pissed - but not at Mario Lemeiux. If it wasn't for him, the Pens probably wouldn't have even made it into the Vegas Gold era. Local goverment has failed Penguins fans to the same degree it bent over backward for the Pirates and Steelers. Maybe this will be a case of officials learning their lesson the hard way, and Pittsburgh will have NHL hockey again within the next 10 years. But for the near future, man, it looks bleak.

Winnipeg? Not happening. As has been discussed before, they built their new arena too small to seriously be considered viable for an NHL franchise. If Hartford couldn't hold a team in a 15,000-seat venue in 1997, no way can Winnipeg hold a team in a 15,000 seat venue in 2007, with the added obstacle of a dollar worth 80%-90% of the U.S. dollar.

Oh, and Detroit in the East? Talk about leaving the Blackhawks out to dry. Wings games are just about the only way the Hawks can draw a capacity crowd anymore.

[GeorgesL]

The KC Blades (IHL) were well supported for a Minor League team.

KC thinks it's a Major League town. The NHL will do well in KC.

I wouldn't doubt that at all. However there are few cities vying for the Pens.

[rvrdgsfn]

Here is the thing that bothers me. Pittsburgh allowed not one but 2 new stadiums. PNC Park for the Pirates & Heinz field for the steelers. It just doesn't make any sense with the city. If not, either the Penguins will be an expansion team or they can join the AHL.

[NJTank]

If the Penguins leave they will never get another NHL team. Its not a large enough media market anymore.

[Lee.]

Winnipeg? Not happening. As has been discussed before, they built their new arena too small to seriously be considered viable for an NHL franchise. If Hartford couldn't hold a team in a 15,000-seat venue in 1997, no way can Winnipeg hold a team in a 15,000 seat venue in 2007, with the added obstacle of a dollar worth 80%-90% of the U.S. dollar.

I would, once again, like to spread some knowledge about Winnipeg's real obstacle to getting the NHL back.

It's Winnipeg.

There is almost zero corporate support, and a metro population of just over 700,000. The Canadian dollar notwithstanding, Winnipeg sports fans are fickle creatures, who I can almost guarantee you, will sell out the first 25 games, then drop down to the pre-Phoenix numbers of 11-12000 a night, because "who wants to see another Winnipeg-Minneapolis game?" Never mind the feelgoddery and claptrap about building the arena too small; they could have put in a 25,000 seater, and the NHL would never go back, let alone sell enough tickets to keep prices down/fill the thing.

It's a boring, dreary, grey city in the winter. As much as I love Winnipeg, as Joel loves Detroit, I will defend her until I drop, but that town keeps shooting itself in the foot time after time after time.

[Ez Street]

Puck is now in KC?s end

City has chance to show it?s a hockey town since Penguins? Lemieux is exploring relocation.

By RANDY COVITZ

The Kansas City Star

?This is now going to be a beauty contest with other cities that want a team.?

-Boots Del Biaggio III

Now that the Pittsburgh Penguins are officially looking for a new home, Boots Del Biaggio III wants Kansas City to show it can support an NHL franchise.

Penguins owner Mario Lemieux announced Thursday that he was taking the team off the market while he explores relocation options in the aftermath of a state gaming board?s rejection of a casino?s offer to build a $290 million arena for the club.

Del Biaggio, who has a contract to own any NHL team that operates in the Sprint Center, plans to be in Kansas City after the first of the year to launch a drive for season-ticket deposits and solicit corporate support as the first steps in convincing his close friend Lemieux to move the club to the $276 million arena that is scheduled to open in October.

?It?s exciting news that Mario made that statement,? said Del Biaggio, a San Jose-based businessman and limited partner in the NHL?s San Jose Sharks. ?It means the Kansas City market and other markets are now an option, where before they weren?t.

?This is now going to be a beauty contest with other cities that want a team. Now, more than ever, it?s important that Kansas City can show the kind of support an NHL team needs.?

Besides Kansas City, other markets that may be interested in the Penguins include Houston; Seattle; Las Vegas; Portland, Ore.; Winnipeg, Manitoba; and Hamilton, Ontario. And the Penguins haven?t given up on striking a deal with the city and state on a new arena to replace antiquated Mellon Arena, where the club?s lease expires at the end of the season.

The current plan proposed by Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell would cost the Penguins about $120 million over 30 years.

Although Lemieux said the Penguins are off the market, Del Biaggio is confident he can work out a partnership with Lemieux. They?ve been partners in a junior hockey club in Omaha, Neb.

Del Biaggio came close to buying the Penguins in 2005, but the club was taken off the market at the 11th hour after it won the rights to the No. 1 pick in the draft, Sidney Crosby, who is the NHL?s leading scorer. Also, former NHL star Luc Robitaille, a boyhood friend and former teammate of Lemieux?s with the Penguins ? and also a partner in the Omaha club ? is an executive with Anschutz Entertainment Group, which will manage the Sprint Center. One of Robitaille?s roles is to help bring an NHL team to Kansas City, and his connection with Lemieux could facilitate a partnership between Del Biaggio and the Penguins.

Lemieux made his announcement after the Pennsylvania Gaming Commission Board rejected a slot-machine application by Isle of Capri Casinos, which had promised to fund an arena for the Penguins. Also last week, Canadian businessman Jim Balsillie backed out of a deal to buy the Penguins, largely because of the uncertainty of whether the Isle of Capri application would be approved.

?Recent developments, including yesterday?s decision by the PGCB, and the recent termination of the purchase agreement by Jim Balsillie have convinced us that it is time to take control of our own destiny,? Lemieux said.

?Accordingly, starting today, the team is off the market, and we will begin to explore relocation options in cities outside Pennsylvania. After seven years of trying to work out a new arena deal exclusively in Pittsburgh, we need to take into consideration the long-term viability of the team and begin discussions with other cities that may be interested in NHL teams.

?In the next few weeks, we will also begin discussions with local leaders about a viable Pittsburgh arena plan.?

Lemieux had the blessing of the NHL to look elsewhere.

?Our preference is for the club to stay in Pittsburgh,? deputy NHL commissioner Bill Daly said Wednesday after the gaming board?s decision. ?The commissioner (Gary Bettman) has been very clear from the start that the team needs a new arena, and if it wasn?t going to get a new arena on terms that made economic sense to the Penguins, the team should move.

?But we wanted to make sure that Pittsburgh was given every opportunity to step to the plate and make a viable arena deal.?

Del Biaggio said he has been in touch with Paul McGannon, president of NHL21 ? the grass-roots organization dedicated to brining the NHL to Kansas City ? concerning a ticket drive.

McGannon said the mechanisms for taking season-ticket deposits will be announced in January. All 72 suites in the Sprint Center, which will seat 17,297 for hockey, have been sold, and a plan to begin marketing the 1,766 club seats is scheduled to launch in January.

?Things are going to move quickly,? McGannon said. ?(Lemieux) has a business to run, and like any other business owner, he?s looking for a land of opportunity. We?re the land of opportunity.?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To reach Randy Covitz, sports reporter for The Star, call (816) 234-4796 or send e-mail to rcovitz@kcstar.com

[ZapRowsdower8]

I feel physically ill. That might sound silly to get that attached to a professional sports team, but thinking about everything else that I, and the rest of the people in Pittsburgh are going to lose. My dad and I have gone to at least 15 to 20 games a year since I was 12 years old. We used I time at these games to bond and talk in a way we couldn't just sitting around the house. I don't blame Mario, he saved this franchise twice already, the local politicians finally got him in the end I suppose.

[yh]

I know they are kind of far apart, but does anyone in Kansas City support the Blues?

Oh wait, people in St. Louis don't even support the Blues. They are averaging 11,000 in posted attendance. From what I hear, average "actual butts in the seats" is closer to 5000.

So, yeah, let's put another team in Missouri.

Quite the educated and enlightened conclusion. Look at a map sometime. KC is 200 miles from St. Louis. Apples and Oranges, amigo.

[gojetsgo]

Winnipeg? Not happening. As has been discussed before, they built their new arena too small to seriously be considered viable for an NHL franchise. If Hartford couldn't hold a team in a 15,000-seat venue in 1997, no way can Winnipeg hold a team in a 15,000 seat venue in 2007, with the added obstacle of a dollar worth 80%-90% of the U.S. dollar.

I would, once again, like to spread some knowledge about Winnipeg's real obstacle to getting the NHL back.

It's Winnipeg.

There is almost zero corporate support, and a metro population of just over 700,000. The Canadian dollar notwithstanding, Winnipeg sports fans are fickle creatures, who I can almost guarantee you, will sell out the first 25 games, then drop down to the pre-Phoenix numbers of 11-12000 a night, because "who wants to see another Winnipeg-Minneapolis game?" Never mind the feelgoddery and claptrap about building the arena too small; they could have put in a 25,000 seater, and the NHL would never go back, let alone sell enough tickets to keep prices down/fill the thing.

It's a boring, dreary, grey city in the winter. As much as I love Winnipeg, as Joel loves Detroit, I will defend her until I drop, but that town keeps shooting itself in the foot time after time after time.

I disagree. There are two types of Winnipeggers. Those who regard the city as a loser-town, incapable of anything great, and those who regard Winnipeg as another major Canadian city, rich in culture and yes, money. Definitely money for NHL hockey. It's always the loser-type that are the most vocal, for some reason.

First of all, with the exception of the last Jets year which was a lame-duck season, the Jets averaged 13,000 per year, not 11,000 - that's a big difference. 13,000 is also the number of tickets sold on average for the Coyotes this year. Keep in mind that when the Jets posted attendance figures of 13,000, that was 13,000 butts in the seats. The Coyotes announce 13,000 in attendance and there's about 10,000 in the arena because of many ticket give-aways. Oh, but you argue that the tickets are more expensive in Phoenix than they were in Winnipeg? Nope. Phoenix ticket prices average $25. Frankly, if you're in Phoenix and want to go to a hockey game, there's a good chance that you can go without paying.

The fact is, that the Coyotes lose more money than the Jets ever did - much more. Even with the Great One behind the bench.

There's no question that Winnipeggers would have to step up to support NHL hockey again. But I think they are more than capable. Minnesota was averaging sub 9,000 attendance before the North Stars left. Now the Wild are one of the healthiest franchises in the league.

I agree that the small arena size is an issue, but at 15,200, sell-outs would make the average attendance better than 9 NHL teams this season. Again, that's POSTED attendance, not butts in the seats. If we are talking about actual butts in the seats, 15,200 is better than half the league.

Also, the new NHL economics makes teams in small markets viable. Before the salary cap, teams like the Jets and Oilers had no chance of getting quality players for more than a few years. The Jets had a payroll of 26 million the year they left. The same year the Red Wings had a payroll of over 70 million. That's no competition. But now, if you have a payroll of 30 million and are playing a high-paying team with a payroll of 45 million, you can still be competitive. Competitive hockey means more fans in the seats. Real fans, not a non-paying block of air that many American teams count as a fan when they post attendance.

It comes down to dollars and cents. With a city of 700,000 - that's 500,000 hockey fans. Compared to other cities of 2 million with much less than that. There's no doubt in my mind that Winnipeg could put more paying butts in the seats night after night than any other potential NHL city. More than many current NHL cities too.

It's time the real proud Winnipeggers speak up, and the perpetual naysayers pipe down - just this once.

Who wants to see another Winnipeg-Minneapolis game? I do. And I'm not alone.

[gojetsgo]

I know they are kind of far apart, but does anyone in Kansas City support the Blues?

Oh wait, people in St. Louis don't even support the Blues. They are averaging 11,000 in posted attendance. From what I hear, average "actual butts in the seats" is closer to 5000.

So, yeah, let's put another team in Missouri.

Quite the educated and enlightened conclusion. Look at a map sometime. KC is 200 miles from St. Louis. Apples and Oranges, amigo.

I realize they are so far apart. That was the first part of my post. The question wasn't rhetorical.

But is the hockey culture in KC that different than StL? I don't know. I was just pointing out that the Blue troubles on and off the ice should be a consideration.

The continuous relocation of franchises to other cities that support the teams even less is a real problem. Not enough people are considering whether people in KC will actually go to hockey games. It's all about the wants and needs of rich arena owners.

[Ez Street]

Quite the educated and enlightened conclusion. Look at a map sometime. KC is 200 miles from St. Louis. Apples and Oranges, amigo.

KC and St. Louis are opposites. Mainly opposite sides of the state. By gojetgo logic, Penn doesn't need two teams. Neither does NY, California. Oh and Canada, they just need one.

Plus, Yale and I need to be fiercer rivals. Blues/Penguins, rivals in the making.

God, that would be awesome.

Shalom.

[gojetsgo]

Quite the educated and enlightened conclusion. Look at a map sometime. KC is 200 miles from St. Louis. Apples and Oranges, amigo.

KC and St. Louis are opposites. Mainly opposite sides of the state. By gojetgo logic, Penn doesn't need two teams. Neither does NY, California. Oh and Canada, they just need one.

Plus, Yale and I need to be fiercer rivals. Blues/Penguins, rivals in the making.

God, that would be awesome.

Shalom.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that every state should have only one team. But cities in the same state/province tend to be similar. Not always, but often. The hockey markets of Calgary and Edmonton are very similar, despite the fact that they are farther apart than KC and StL. Economics aside, I think the hockey support in Pittsburgh and Philly are also pretty similar. It's about geography. Some areas of the country like hockey and some like other sports. NASCAR, golf, WNBA, women's tennis, arena football - all sports that do better than hockey on TV and in attendance in most US markets.

Shalom.

[Lee.]

Winnipeg? Not happening. As has been discussed before, they built their new arena too small to seriously be considered viable for an NHL franchise. If Hartford couldn't hold a team in a 15,000-seat venue in 1997, no way can Winnipeg hold a team in a 15,000 seat venue in 2007, with the added obstacle of a dollar worth 80%-90% of the U.S. dollar.

I would, once again, like to spread some knowledge about Winnipeg's real obstacle to getting the NHL back.

It's Winnipeg.

There is almost zero corporate support, and a metro population of just over 700,000. The Canadian dollar notwithstanding, Winnipeg sports fans are fickle creatures, who I can almost guarantee you, will sell out the first 25 games, then drop down to the pre-Phoenix numbers of 11-12000 a night, because "who wants to see another Winnipeg-Minneapolis game?" Never mind the feelgoddery and claptrap about building the arena too small; they could have put in a 25,000 seater, and the NHL would never go back, let alone sell enough tickets to keep prices down/fill the thing.

It's a boring, dreary, grey city in the winter. As much as I love Winnipeg, as Joel loves Detroit, I will defend her until I drop, but that town keeps shooting itself in the foot time after time after time.

I disagree. There are two types of Winnipeggers. Those who regard the city as a loser-town, incapable of anything great, and those who regard Winnipeg as another major Canadian city, rich in culture and yes, money. Definitely money for NHL hockey. It's always the loser-type that are the most vocal, for some reason.

First of all, with the exception of the last Jets year which was a lame-duck season, the Jets averaged 13,000 per year, not 11,000 - that's a big difference. 13,000 is also the number of tickets sold on average for the Coyotes this year. Keep in mind that when the Jets posted attendance figures of 13,000, that was 13,000 butts in the seats. The Coyotes announce 13,000 in attendance and there's about 10,000 in the arena because of many ticket give-aways. Oh, but you argue that the tickets are more expensive in Phoenix than they were in Winnipeg? Nope. Phoenix ticket prices average $25. Frankly, if you're in Phoenix and want to go to a hockey game, there's a good chance that you can go without paying.

The fact is, that the Coyotes lose more money than the Jets ever did - much more. Even with the Great One behind the bench.

There's no question that Winnipeggers would have to step up to support NHL hockey again. But I think they are more than capable. Minnesota was averaging sub 9,000 attendance before the North Stars left. Now the Wild are one of the healthiest franchises in the league.

I agree that the small arena size is an issue, but at 15,200, sell-outs would make the average attendance better than 9 NHL teams this season. Again, that's POSTED attendance, not butts in the seats. If we are talking about actual butts in the seats, 15,200 is better than half the league.

Also, the new NHL economics makes teams in small markets viable. Before the salary cap, teams like the Jets and Oilers had no chance of getting quality players for more than a few years. The Jets had a payroll of 26 million the year they left. The same year the Red Wings had a payroll of over 70 million. That's no competition. But now, if you have a payroll of 30 million and are playing a high-paying team with a payroll of 45 million, you can still be competitive. Competitive hockey means more fans in the seats. Real fans, not a non-paying block of air that many American teams count as a fan when they post attendance.

It comes down to dollars and cents. With a city of 700,000 - that's 500,000 hockey fans. Compared to other cities of 2 million with much less than that. There's no doubt in my mind that Winnipeg could put more paying butts in the seats night after night than any other potential NHL city. More than many current NHL cities too.

It's time the real proud Winnipeggers speak up, and the perpetual naysayers pipe down - just this once.

Who wants to see another Winnipeg-Minneapolis game? I do. And I'm not alone.

Valid points all, and truthfully, I hope one day Winnipeg can pull it off. I'm just not going to hold my breath.

Besides, I've lived in Winnipeg, and now I live in Vancouver; hockey city or not, I can't see any player willingly going to live in the peg for 6 cold months a year...that's an intangible you don't hear many talking about.

Good luck, though, to the Pens, whereever they end up.

EDITED FOR CONTENT: Actually, the two types of Winnipeggers are, those who consider it a loser town, and those who stay there

[gojetsgo]

Winnipeg is about on par with Edmonton as far as cold. Winnipeg is a tad colder. If hockey players are willing to live in Deadmonton, they are willing to live in the Peg. Pronger is an exception of course. The bastard.

Ask any former Jet about what it was like playing in Winnipeg and their eyes light up. Even superstars like Teemu have only good things to say about Winnipeg.

[IceCap]

If hockey players are willing to live in Deadmonton, they are willing to live in the Peg. Pronger is an exception of course. The bastard.

If the Pens move to Winnipeg it wouldn't be as hard as you might think to sign him. Just have the city pay for an extension to the local Gap

[-Helix-]

Winnipeg? Not happening. As has been discussed before, they built their new arena too small to seriously be considered viable for an NHL franchise. If Hartford couldn't hold a team in a 15,000-seat venue in 1997, no way can Winnipeg hold a team in a 15,000 seat venue in 2007, with the added obstacle of a dollar worth 80%-90% of the U.S. dollar.

I would, once again, like to spread some knowledge about Winnipeg's real obstacle to getting the NHL back.

It's Winnipeg.

There is almost zero corporate support, and a metro population of just over 700,000. The Canadian dollar notwithstanding, Winnipeg sports fans are fickle creatures, who I can almost guarantee you, will sell out the first 25 games, then drop down to the pre-Phoenix numbers of 11-12000 a night, because "who wants to see another Winnipeg-Minneapolis game?" Never mind the feelgoddery and claptrap about building the arena too small; they could have put in a 25,000 seater, and the NHL would never go back, let alone sell enough tickets to keep prices down/fill the thing.

It's a boring, dreary, grey city in the winter. As much as I love Winnipeg, as Joel loves Detroit, I will defend her until I drop, but that town keeps shooting itself in the foot time after time after time.

I disagree. There are two types of Winnipeggers. Those who regard the city as a loser-town, incapable of anything great, and those who regard Winnipeg as another major Canadian city, rich in culture and yes, money. Definitely money for NHL hockey. It's always the loser-type that are the most vocal, for some reason.

First of all, with the exception of the last Jets year which was a lame-duck season, the Jets averaged 13,000 per year, not 11,000 - that's a big difference. 13,000 is also the number of tickets sold on average for the Coyotes this year. Keep in mind that when the Jets posted attendance figures of 13,000, that was 13,000 butts in the seats. The Coyotes announce 13,000 in attendance and there's about 10,000 in the arena because of many ticket give-aways. Oh, but you argue that the tickets are more expensive in Phoenix than they were in Winnipeg? Nope. Phoenix ticket prices average $25. Frankly, if you're in Phoenix and want to go to a hockey game, there's a good chance that you can go without paying.

The fact is, that the Coyotes lose more money than the Jets ever did - much more. Even with the Great One behind the bench.

There's no question that Winnipeggers would have to step up to support NHL hockey again. But I think they are more than capable. Minnesota was averaging sub 9,000 attendance before the North Stars left. Now the Wild are one of the healthiest franchises in the league.

I agree that the small arena size is an issue, but at 15,200, sell-outs would make the average attendance better than 9 NHL teams this season. Again, that's POSTED attendance, not butts in the seats. If we are talking about actual butts in the seats, 15,200 is better than half the league.

Also, the new NHL economics makes teams in small markets viable. Before the salary cap, teams like the Jets and Oilers had no chance of getting quality players for more than a few years. The Jets had a payroll of 26 million the year they left. The same year the Red Wings had a payroll of over 70 million. That's no competition. But now, if you have a payroll of 30 million and are playing a high-paying team with a payroll of 45 million, you can still be competitive. Competitive hockey means more fans in the seats. Real fans, not a non-paying block of air that many American teams count as a fan when they post attendance.

It comes down to dollars and cents. With a city of 700,000 - that's 500,000 hockey fans. Compared to other cities of 2 million with much less than that. There's no doubt in my mind that Winnipeg could put more paying butts in the seats night after night than any other potential NHL city. More than many current NHL cities too.

It's time the real proud Winnipeggers speak up, and the perpetual naysayers pipe down - just this once.

Who wants to see another Winnipeg-Minneapolis game? I do. And I'm not alone.

Never understood the "butts in the seats" argument. Sports attendance has always been, and always will be TICKETS DISTRIBUTED. If you're saying Winnipeg announced "butts in the seats" rather than tickets distributed like every other professional sports team in the world - you're mistaken.

If teams announced "butts in the seats" numbers, the Red Wings would be near the bottom of the league - even though they sell out every game.

And even Canadian teams give away tickets - a friend of mine just got free tickets to a Senators game. So don't think that all 15,000 seats would be sold tickets.

Also, the reason Minnesota has such better attendance now than it did then is because they're in St. Paul now. Not Minneapolis. People in St. Paul refused to go to Minneapolis to watch the North Stars so they boycotted the team.

Even if a team in Winnipeg did sell out every game, they would still struggle to make a profit because they would be hard pressed to get the corporate support other markets are capable of. Which is why a larger arena would be even more important. They would have to balance out the poor corporate support with great fan support - which they are plenty capable of doing, but a 15,000 seat arena might be too small to do that.

Nashville has a similar problem. They don't have the corporate support other teams have and they've basically been living completely off fan support. But Nashville actually has a good team - Winnipeg might not be so lucky if their team struggles like the old one did.

But atleast the Canadian dollar is doing better these days so that will give a team in Winnipeg a bit of an advantage over the old Jets.

Still, I can't picture Crosby in any uniform other than a Pens uniform. Hopefully they stay in Pitt. The Penguins fans need to start being more active. Mario is just doing this to hopefully get a rise out of the government and the fans to hopefully get something going as far as a new arena. Unfortunately, time is running out.

[Ez Street]

Copps Coliseum (Hamilton) 19,000 opened in 1985

Sprint Center (Kansas City) 18,500 opens in 2007

MTS Centre (Winnipeg) 15,003 opened in 2004

Toyota Center (Houston) 17,800 opened in 2003

Rose Garden (Portland) 17,500 opened in 1995

[rvrdgsfn]

In the article I just read on Yahoo, here are the cities looking at pittsburgh

Among the cities known to be interested in the Penguins are Kansas City, Mo.; Houston; Portland, Ore.; and Winnipeg, Manitoba.

[Guest]

Also, the reason Minnesota has such better attendance now than it did then is because they're in St. Paul now. Not Minneapolis. People in St. Paul refused to go to Minneapolis to watch the North Stars so they boycotted the team.

But the Metropolitan Sports Center was in Bloomington. Either way, what a dumbass move. Who cares which half of the Twin Cities they're in? Is traffic THAT bad?

[EatSleepJeep]

Also, the reason Minnesota has such better attendance now than it did then is because they're in St. Paul now. Not Minneapolis. People in St. Paul refused to go to Minneapolis to watch the North Stars so they boycotted the team.

You have zero idea what you're talking about.