If the Predators move to Hamilton....

[gojetsgo]

And what a better way to improve that by not nurturing the market, and letting the team leave. Remember, Nashville with 15,259 had better attendance than 24) Phoenix 14,988 25) Boston 14,764 26) New Jersey 14,176 27) Washington 13,929 28) NY Islanders 12,886 29) Chicago 12,727 30) St. Louis 12,520 so with the exception of Phoenix and DC. All are established hockey markets, and only NJ and NYI play in hole arenas. And the Stanley Cup champion Ducks only averaged 16,363 just over 1100 more each game.

Just to clarify... those numbers are "average amount of tickets distributed per game" which includes freebies handed out to whoever in an attempt to get more butts in the seat - someone has a link of actual tickets sold/game for every team, I cannot recall where Nashville ranks on that list - they could even be higher than 23rd I don't know.

Here's the stats of how many complimentary tickets were given away for each team. More importantly, the gate revenue for each team this year.Info via the Globe and Mail

Complimentary tickets given away per game:

Atlanta Thrashers 2,827

Florida Panthers 2,806

Colorado Avalanche 2,551

Los Angeles Kings 2,274

Chicago Blackhawks 2,212

Dallas Stars 2,100

New Jersey Devils 1,747

Tampa Bay Lightning 1,738

Nashville Predators 1,718

Phoenix Coyotes 1,580

St. Louis Blues 1,160

Anaheim Ducks 1,106

Washington Capitals 1,091

New York Islanders 1,011

Ottawa Senators 949

Carolina Hurricanes 880

Columbus Blue Jackets 819

Boston Bruins 797

Buffalo Sabres 730

Pittsburgh Penguins 642

Montreal Canadiens 636

Philadelphia Flyers 502

San Jose Sharks 486

Calgary Fames 429

Vancouver Canucks 310

Minnesota Wild 304

Toronto Maple Leafs 243

New York Rangers 233

Detroit Red Wings 212

Edmonton Oilers 207

Gate revenue per game (US dollars)

Toronto Maple Leafs 1,513,659

Montreal Canadiens 1,276,266

New York Rangers 1,114,447

Detroit Red Wings 1,113,105

Vancouver Canucks 1,085,226

Colorado Avalanche 1,044,752

Minnesota Wild 1,023,037

Edmonton Oilers 1,020,499

Calgary Flames 991,252

Philadelphia Flyers 989,955

Dallas Stars 985,953

Ottawa Senators 908,557

San Jose Sharks 857,330

Columbus Blue Jackets 852,243

Tampa Bay Lightning 783,829

Anaheim Ducks 773,428

Boston Bruins 769,386

Carolina Hurricanes 700,460

Los Angeles Kings 676,003

Buffalo Sabres 665,539

Pittsburgh Penguins 593,546

New Jersey Devils 569,131

Phoenix Coyotes 538,450

Nashville Predators 516,440

Florida Panthers 504,655

Atlanta Thrashers 487,890

Washington Capitals 456,336

New York Islanders 440,196

St. Louis Blues 433,272

Chicago Blackhawks 341,959

[gueman]

Remember I only suggested that if it was going to be more of a regional based team. But I do think all this is moot because the Preds are not moving.

I used to think the Expos would survive too

Anyways, if they end up putting a team in the Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge-Guelph-London-Hamilton area there's really no other name than "Ontario" that would appeal to all of those markets.

The end of the world is near...we agree on something.

And I wouldn't exactly compare the Expos situation and the Preds. Other than an out of market owner buying the team. Oh and local ownership isn't all that great. Just ask any Orioles fan.

[SabreGuy]

My 2 cents...at the last minute a ownership group made up of locals from Nashville will come forward with prominent Canadian country music stars as the "faces" behind the $$$. If the Blackberry Barron is allowed to move to Hamilton cities will be very reluctant to build an arena. The Sommet Center is just 11 years old and I doubt is it outdated, so why would a city risk building an arena for a team that will leave in 10 years. Perhaps the NHL should expand and allow the Blackberry Barron first dibs on a team.

If they do move I doubt the Pred's name will make the move. A question for all the SE Ont members...could one build an arena were the 401 meets 6 and make the team regional, trying to get support from Kitchener, Waterloo, and Hamilton? If that could happen I would name the team the Ontario Pride.

The team will not be called 'Ontario' with teams in Toronto and Ottawa. Just won't happen.

It's not without precedent. There's a Tampa Bay Lightening and a Tampa Bay Devil Rays... but the teams in Miami are still called "Florida." For a good long time, the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim were simply the California Angels, despite the existence of the Dodgers, Padres, A's and Giants in California. The hockey team in Oakland was known as the California Seals/Golden Seals, despite the Kings being in LA at the time.

I think there are PLENTY of people in Ontario who would be HAPPY to have a regional team to root for aside from the Leafs and Sens. There are plenty of us (and I count myself among that group, even though I've only lived in Ontario for about a year and will always be a Sabres fan primarily) who live in Ontario who have NO desire to hitch ourselves to either Toronto or Ottawa, but would like a regional team to root for. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I would find it MORE likely that the team be called the "Ontario Somethings" than the "Hamilton Somethings" or "Kitchener Somethings" or "Waterloo Somethings," etc.

[Gothamite]

The team will not be called 'Ontario' with teams in Toronto and Ottawa. Just won't happen.

It's not without precedent. There's a Tampa Bay Lightening and a Tampa Bay Devil Rays... but the teams in Miami are still called "Florida." For a good long time, the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim were simply the California Angels, despite the existence of the Dodgers, Padres, A's and Giants in California. The hockey team in Oakland was known as the California Seals/Golden Seals, despite the Kings being in LA at the time.

When the Florida Marlins were founded, they were the only MLB team in the state. Although the Florida Panthers came just after the Lightning, they're also named after a specific animal - the Florida panther. The California Angels were the only American League team in California at the time, back when that was actually a huge deal.

I think there are PLENTY of people in Ontario who would be HAPPY to have a regional team to root for aside from the Leafs and Sens. There are plenty of us (and I count myself among that group, even though I've only lived in Ontario for about a year and will always be a Sabres fan primarily) who live in Ontario who have NO desire to hitch ourselves to either Toronto or Ottawa, but would like a regional team to root for. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I would find it MORE likely that the team be called the "Ontario Somethings" than the "Hamilton Somethings" or "Kitchener Somethings" or "Waterloo Somethings," etc.

So are you saying you, as a hockey fan in Ontario who doesn't want to support the Senators or Leafs, would

back a team called the "Ontario _____s" but not a team called the "Waterloo _____s"?

[SabreGuy]

When the Florida Marlins were founded, they were the only MLB team in the state. Although the Florida Panthers came just after the Lightning, they're also named after a specific animal - the Florida panther. The California Angels were the only American League team in California at the time, back when that was actually a huge deal.

Good point about the Marlins. I had checked on the dates for the Kings/Seals but not that. And I get your point about the Angels being AL vs. the other teams being NL, but I still contend that is a fairly valid point. The name "California" was useful because it allowed people from a number of communities in California, who otherwise wouldn't want to root for a team in Anaheim due to local rivalries and general local snobbery, to adopt that team as their own. And I think that is the point I was trying to make about Ontario. Attempting to draw a fan base from London, Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph, suburban Toronto, Hamilton, Niagara, etc is a lot like trying to draw your fan base from Anaheim, Norwalk, Huntington Beach, Long Beach, Newport Beach, etc. A lot of mid-sized towns in the shadow of a major metropolis who otherwise don't have a lot of regional cohesiveness. Using a regional name, that they all associate with, helps draw the fan base from a larger area, IMO.

So are you saying you, as a hockey fan in Ontario who doesn't want to support the Senators or Leafs, would

back a team called the "Ontario _____s" but not a team called the "Waterloo _____s"?

Yes, in the sense that I mentioned above. I guess I'm not expressing it well, but it's not a "I don't like the Maple Leafs" thing. It's an "I don't like the city of Toronto" thing. And likewise "I don't like Ottawa either, damn politicians." And that can be extended to a "damn Hamilton, it's almost as bad as Toronto and it smells worse" thing. But all of those little communities (in my experience) regard themselves as "Ontario." The same way that Buffalo is Buffalo, and NYC is NYC... but everybody else is "New York." Rochester and Syracuse might have a rivalry, but if you put a team in Syracuse and named the team New York Somethings... people from Rochester would be more likely to support the team than they would if you named it the Syracuse Somethings. There's a provincial, territorial thing going on here that's tough to explain, but that a regional name could help overcome.

[Webhamster]

Anyways, if they end up putting a team in the Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge-Guelph-London-Hamilton area there's really no other name than "Ontario" that would appeal to all of those markets.

The Ontario (insert nickname) of (insert city/region)

Or you could be like the Quad City Flames... but the prefix version of 'six' may be inappropriate for a pro team

The "Sextet City Predators"? Or the "Sex City Predators"? Hmmm...yeah, probably not the best visual. But using that name could potentially lead to a population boom in the area...

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitresses...

[Gothamite]

Using a regional name, that they all associate with, helps draw the fan base from a larger area, IMO.

I know that's the conventional thinking in many quarters, but is there any actual evidence for it?

The Yankees and Mets don't have any trouble drawing fans from Connecticut and New Jersey. Downstate Illinois belongs to the St. Louis Cardinals. I've seen no evidence that the New England Patriots have a wider fanbase than the Boston Red Sox.

So what proof is there that a more "inclusive" name has any effect on the fanbase?

[SabreGuy]

So what proof is there that a more "inclusive" name has any effect on the fanbase?

That would be an awfully difficult thing to prove, given that there aren't too many teams that have changed from a regional name to a city name, or vice versa. Also you have to factor in things like local economies, "star" power of the members of the team, how "good" or "bad" teams were certain years, stadium conditions, etc.

I tried to look at some data for the Angels comparing the five final years of being "California Angels" (1992 - 1996) versus the first five subsequent years of being the "Anaheim Angels" (1997 - 2001).

From 92-96, they averaged annual attendance that was 87% of the AL average for those 5 years, during which they had 1 out of 5 years with a winning record. By comparison, from 97-01, they averaged annual attendance of 90% of the AL average during a time when they had 3 out of 5 seasons as winning seasons. (EDIT: Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the stadium underwent a major renovation during that time, which could have had the effect of drawing up the attendance numbers.) What that all means... I have no idea, other than what we already knew... that a winning team draws fans more than a losing team.

Like I said... it's a tough thing to prove in either direction.

How would the Red Sox play in Connecticut if they were the New England Red Sox? Who knows? How would the Cards fan base change in Southern Illinois change if the Cubs were the Illinois Cubs? Who knows? But why NOT try to be more inclusive for a new team, where (unlike the Cubs and Red Sox) the name change doesn't grate against the team name you've known your entire life?

Though of course, like so many other issues here, it's tough to take the "personal" aspect out of a sports fan. I know I wouldn't root for a team from Hamilton, but I would if they were called "Ontario." And so that colours my feelings on the issue. And perhaps I over-estimate the number of people who would agree with me... but it seems to me there are some. And why not be inclusive to them?

[Gothamite]

Like I said... it's a tough thing to prove in either direction.

I agree completely.

But since I'm not trying to prove that it doesn't work, only asking for proof that it does work, I'll have to say that the positive assertion - inclusive names build a bigger fanbase - just isn't true.

Why not do it? No particular reason in most instances, I guess. But I also see no reason to do it in any instance. And in this case, since Ontario is already represented by not one but two teams, there is a substantial reason not to do it.

[SabreGuy]

Why not do it? No particular reason in most instances, I guess. But I also see no reason to do it in any instance. And in this case, since Ontario is already represented by not one but two teams, there is a substantial reason not to do it.

And so... like so many things... it just comes down to personal preference, I guess.

Just like I don't feel represented, as an Ontarian, by Toronto or Ottawa... it's just a personal feeling for things.

And damn you, why am I disagreeing with you so much lately! It really throws off the logo-centric part of my brain when I disagree with you, Goth!!

[CC97]

I also see no reason to do it in any instance. And in this case, since Ontario is already represented by not one but two teams, there is a substantial reason not to do it.

My reason for naming them Ontario is simply because it sounds better.

Kitchener-Waterloo Somethings

Kitchener-Waterloo-Hamilton Somethings

Southern Ontario Somethings

Sex-Cities Somethings

etc.

Hamilton Somethings is the only city name that would work, in my opinion, the rest of the cities up for consideration are too dependent on their collective power with surrounding cities

[IceCap]

I also see no reason to do it in any instance. And in this case, since Ontario is already represented by not one but two teams, there is a substantial reason not to do it.

My reason for naming them Ontario is simply because it sounds better.

Kitchener-Waterloo Somethings

Kitchener-Waterloo-Hamilton Somethings

Southern Ontario Somethings

Sex-Cities Somethings

etc.

Hamilton Somethings is the only city name that would work, in my opinion, the rest of the cities up for consideration are too dependent on their collective power with surrounding cities

Well if they end up staying in Hamilton, I say keep the "Hamilton" name. If they end up in the Kitchener-Waterloo/Cambridge area what about "Tri-City"? That's the informal nickname given to the Kitchener, Waterloo, and Cambridge area anyway.

[Gothamite]

And damn you, why am I disagreeing with you so much lately! It really throws off the logo-centric part of my brain when I disagree with you, Goth!!

Ah, don't worry. We'll be in lock-step again soon enough. There'll be plenty of time to agree after the Wherever Whatevers unveil their logo.

I'm just trying to get a sense of where you're coming from, given that my football team is named for a city in which I've never lived (heck, a city in which I've never spent any more than five hours at a stretch).

[SabreGuy]

Ah, don't worry. We'll be in lock-step again soon enough.

We need a good Brewers retro thread to bring the uniform universe back in to sync.

[Gothamite]

Agreed.

[-Helix-]

Leafs and the Sabres will never allow a team in Hamilton.

Especially the Sabres who can't make a profit as it is (they could've won the cup and been lucky to break even. They sold out all their games too. But it just shows how important corporate support is and why Nashville is struggling and a place like Winnipeg will never see a team again) and would lose half their fanbase to the new team (majority of Buffalo fans are frustrated Canadians that can't afford Leafs tickets).

[The_Admiral]

Sex-Cities Somethings

The hottest cities in all of Ontario.

[IceCap]

Leafs and the Sabres will never allow a team in Hamilton.

Especially the Sabres who can't make a profit as it is (they could've won the cup and been lucky to break even. They sold out all their games too. But it just shows how important corporate support is and why Nashville is struggling and a place like Winnipeg will never see a team again) and would lose half their fanbase to the new team (majority of Buffalo fans are frustrated Canadians that can't afford Leafs tickets).

If the NHL let the Ducks set up shop in Anaheim then the Preds moving to Hamilton shouldn't be an issue. Sure Balsille would have to pay both the Leafs and Sabres a good chunk of change for territorial rights like the Ducks had to pay the Kings, but that's pocket change to him.

[SabreGuy]

Leafs and the Sabres will never allow a team in Hamilton.

Well, that is a possibility. But far from a definite thing, especially in the case of the Leafs. The Leafs, even in their worst years, will NEVER have trouble drawing fans or making money. You could put another team across the street from the ACC and the Leafs would still make money.

Especially the Sabres who can't make a profit as it is (they could've won the cup and been lucky to break even. They sold out all their games too. But it just shows how important corporate support is and why Nashville is struggling and a place like Winnipeg will never see a team again) and would lose half their fanbase to the new team (majority of Buffalo fans are frustrated Canadians that can't afford Leafs tickets).

While it's true that they didn't make a profit until after the SECOND round of the playoffs, even after selling out the season, it's NOT true when you say "majority of Buffalo fans are frustrated Canadians that can't afford Leafs tickets." That is, honestly, just not true at all. 12% of Sabres season ticket holders are from Canada... which is far short of a majority! I also heard on the radio the other day (so don't quote me because my memory isn't what it once was) that something like 2% or 3% of Hamilton NHL fans identify themselves as Sabres fans.

The "majority" of Sabres fans are from Western New York, from Rochester heading west to Lake Erie and south to Pennsylvania, with a small (but not insignificant) number coming from places within half an hour or 45 minutes of the border... St. Catharines, Niagara Falls, Fort Erie, Welland, etc.

(EDITED for clarity)

(EDITED a second time to say...)

In addition, the fact that for future seasons, Canadians will need a passport to cross the border in to the US will bite in to that southern Ontario fan base for the Sabres, completely independent of whether there is a team in Hamilton or not. Canadian passports are significantly more expensive (yes, even with the exchange rate, that is coincidentally around a measly 2% these days) and last only 5 years (as opposed to US passports which are good for 10 years), which makes it less and less likely that Canadians will care to bother coming over the border for Sabres games anyway.

[DEAD!]

I also see no reason to do it in any instance. And in this case, since Ontario is already represented by not one but two teams, there is a substantial reason not to do it.

My reason for naming them Ontario is simply because it sounds better.

Kitchener-Waterloo Somethings

Kitchener-Waterloo-Hamilton Somethings

Southern Ontario Somethings

Sex-Cities Somethings

etc.

Hamilton Somethings is the only city name that would work, in my opinion, the rest of the cities up for consideration are too dependent on their collective power with surrounding cities

Well if they end up staying in Hamilton, I say keep the "Hamilton" name. If they end up in the Kitchener-Waterloo/Cambridge area what about "Tri-City"? That's the informal nickname given to the Kitchener, Waterloo, and Cambridge area anyway.

I was thinking about that.... if they did that, shouldn't they find a way to be affiliated with the new Quad-Cities AHL team?