CCSLC Apprentice

[GFB]

GFB: Who are serving as the judges for this one? Is it me alone, or do you have folks empaneled? While I'm sure I'd be able to make a selection between the teams designs and state my rationale behind whatever choice I made, I think I'd have a hard time identifying people for elimination based on their level of participation, creative input, etc.

Also, did you get my PM about the other potential challenge?

Critiquing this contest will be:

yourself

myself

fiasco!

pcgd

pollux

Brian.

slapshot

andrew_harrington

In case of a tie, your vote will be the tie breaker.

If this doesn't work for you, let me know...

And yes, I got your pm. (I just haven't got around to replying yet... my bad.)

I'll let all the judges know that the critique has started...

[pollux]

Optimus

The wordmark looks good. It does feel a bit collegiate with the block font, but the addition of the dome over the wordmark balances this out well. I'm not 100% on the dome though. It looks like the lines representing the curves should have been a little thicker than what they are right now. It clashes with the overall flow.

I also like the way you've incorporated the dome into the star for your secondary. But the blue part at the bottom seems incomplete. You could've maybe added the same depth that you added in the upper part of the star.

Numbers look great, I really dig the blocky feel of it. They are very unique. Color are good by themselves, however when the red and the blue are together (like in your sleeve logo), they seem to bleed a bit into each other (that may be just my eyes though).

Overall a nice design that would translate very well on the t-shirt.

Prodigy

I like the wordmark as it really feels like a baseball wordmark. However there is some difference between the wordmark alone and the one displayed on the t-shirt. Which one is the final version? Colors (yellow and white) are inverted. I wish you'd kept the stars as they were a unique piece of the wordmark. But in all fairness, the final choice you made is a solid one.

The secondary is well executed, although I'm still questioning the arched-structure. I'm not quite sure what to think of it when I see it on the patch. The diamond-shape is really nice and I like that you added the abbreviated version of the name in there.

I really like the numbers. I think a one color set will come cheaper and they do look big enough that they don't need multiple outlines. Colors are well picked and complement each other very well.

This is also a very solid design.

----------

This is going to be a very close one guys! Excellent work from both teams again!

[-(dp)-]

I like the wordmark as it really feels like a baseball wordmark. However there is some difference between the wordmark alone and the one displayed on the t-shirt. Which one is the final version? Colors (yellow and white) are inverted.

Yeah, I noticed that not long after it was posted. The final one is the yellow with white outline. I changed it and re-uploaded it to my photobucket, with both being yellow, but Maz had saved it and uploaded it to his own, instead of using my link, so it wasn't changed in this post. They should both be yellow, and I PMed Maz to switch the link to the one with both being yellow next time he gets on.

[Mac the Knife]

GFB: Who are serving as the judges for this one? Is it me alone, or do you have folks empaneled? While I'm sure I'd be able to make a selection between the teams designs and state my rationale behind whatever choice I made, I think I'd have a hard time identifying people for elimination based on their level of participation, creative input, etc.

Also, did you get my PM about the other potential challenge?

Critiquing this contest will be:

yourself

myself

fiasco!

pcgd

pollux

Brian.

slapshot

andrew_harrington

In case of a tie, your vote will be the tie breaker.

If this doesn't work for you, let me know...

Yeah, that works... I just didn't want to have to be the poor schlep to tell either group that theirs isn't the selection.

[fiasco!]

First off, I think both teams did a great job on this one. The teamwork displayed in the respective threads was evident and shows in the final product.

Optimus

I love the wordmark/logo combo. Very nicely done and well thought out. The colors, while predictable, are fitting. The sleeve logo is nice, and fits in with the main mark, but it will be hard to make out what it is at that size. The numbers are a little plain for the logo, but will work well, I think. My biggest gripe is not at all to do with the design of the logos or the numbers, but in the template portion. The player with the glove appears that his glove is upside-down, and that's just sloppy to me. Something that could have easily been fixed.

All in all, a great job.

Prodigy

I think all your elements fit together seamlessly. The wordmark, logo and numbers all look like they go together. The choice of colors was a bold move, and I think it works just fine. The wordmark has a distinct baseball feel to it, and will look good on the field of play. Good choice on one color numbers, as they will be easy to read, and reduce printing costs. You guys put together a very sharp package, even though you were basically down a couple members due to vacations, etc.

Great job, it's nice to see both teams are in this to win it.

[slapshot]

Optimus

I think the logo/wordmark combination is good work. All the elements look bold enough to eliminate problems with reproduction at small sizes. The color combination is not a unique one, but seems to fit well. I think there should be more contrast between the red and blue, but if that's going to be a negative shape on the t-shirt, then that can be alleviated by using a darker t-shirts.

The secondary is very clean, but the shape of the dome gets lost inside all the segments of the star. At a smaller it looks very similar to the AHL's "Planet USA" logo used during its All-Star festivities.

I don't like the space between the curve at the bottom of the dome and the top of Senators. They should both folow the same contour. North State also seems like an afterthought the way it fits in there.

The number font doesn't go with the wordmark script. It feels to digital/blocky compared to the athletic block in the rest of the logo, and this loses some of the consistency within the entire identity.

The presentation is ok. The glove going to wrong way is really obvious and detracts from the overall look, and you could do without the third figure on the right.

Prodigy

Interesting choice of colors. I like the way you decided to not use an obvious policital/patriotic scheme considering the team nickname. I think the script is fantastic. Although it stands fine on its own, North State should have been integrated into it more for the primary logo. The secondary is great, it definitely pieces together the elements without cramming in too much information, and the NS logo is done well.

I think the custom number font works much better with the script in your logo than Optimus' does with theirs. It's not so unique that it would be hard to read from a distance either.

I like the presebtation. It's very straightforward without thrying to throw in the gimmicky wrinkles and shadows of a model in motion. Sometimes artists go overboard trying to capture realism that it makes the primary graphic hard to decipher, and you avoided that with your display.

Very impressive by both teams. I would have to give the edge to Optimus, since their logo was more complete, but it's a small edge.

[gingerbreadmann]

I apologize for chiming in. But if I understand your concerns with the glove correctly, I think it is actually facing the correct way, assuming that the player is opening the glove towards the camera. As in this photo.

Of course, if you mean upside-down as in should be opening into the player, I don't know how to respond to that except that he could be opening towards the camera. But ShinyHubCaps drew it so I can't speak for him.

[Cola]

The glove is indeed facing the correct way. I can't even really see how it can be confused EXCEPT for the fact that there is no shading on the arms maybe to dictate which direction the arm is rotating?

*Act like you are going to catch a ball right under your chest.

The 4 fingers are on top with the netting of the glove between the thumb.

Another tip, if the player pictured in our template had hair on the arms...you wouldn't see them...you'd see mostly forearm. In our template- you're supposed to be viewing the pocket of the glove, not the back.

[fiasco!]

If that's what he was going for, it was executed very poorly. The way I see it is, the player is holding the ball behind his back, and the glove is in front of him. The arm angle looks like the back of the glove should be facing outward. I've played and watched a lot of ball in my time, and I've never seen a glove/arm angle like that. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just looks awkward to me.

[Cola]

The arm angle looks like the back of the glove should be facing outward. I've played and watched a lot of ball in my time, and I've never seen a glove/arm angle like that.

You're playing second base and get a line drive right to your gut...assume the proper position. Make sense now?

I guess the arm *could* have been at a 40 degree angle instead of a 45, but I guess it just didn't register to me as awkward. Oh well, this is just semantics anyways and hopefully doesn't detract from the design.

I will admit, I also could see the ball behind him in one hand and the glove facing him in the other...then again, where do you see that pose at?

[ShinyHubCaps]

The player with the glove appears that his glove is upside-down, and that's just sloppy to me. Something that could have easily been fixed.

I know it looks strange, but the source pic was a player holding his arm out in front of him like a catcher. I did add the glove after making the arms (because I wanted the arms to be with as little detail as possible so as not to distract from the uniform, but a more detailed glove seemed fitting), so I made sure to add the glove in the right direction. So though it looks awkward, I assure you it is anatomically correct.

If that's what he was going for, it was executed very poorly. The way I see it is, the player is holding the ball behind his back, and the glove is in front of him.

Fair enough, but I thought it was obvious that they represented the three "positions" (fielder, batter, and pitcher). I suppose if you view it as a pitcher, it skews the perspective a bit. The fact remains that it serves its purpose to showcase the uniform. There may be other ways to do it, but I still think that it is effective to show the client how they would look before giving the green-light, otherwise leaving them to hope they turn out okay and look good in action.

[Brian in Boston]

Optimus

Your palette is a logical choice. While some might deride Red, White and Blue as being overdone, or the too obvious option, the Senators identity lends itself to the aforementioned colors.

The combination of the state capitol dome and team name works as a primary logo. In fact, had you opted to eliminate one element or the other, the resulting logo would have been exponentially worse. The dome on its own - at least as rendered here - would have been far too minimalist to effectively stand alone as a t-shirt graphic, while the simple block wordmark would have come across as rather bland. Both elements - combined as they are - make for a pleasing logo design.

That said, your assignment called for you to create a wordmark for the front of the t-shirt... nothing more, nothing less. Frankly, the wordmark portion of your team logo isn't dynamic enough to stand on its own. It amounts to a block font. Without the capitol dome element, your wordmark would just sit there. It will be interesting to see whether Mac finds the addition of the state capitol dome to your t-shirt "wordmark" to be a bit more than he requested. If not, terrific; you've created a great graphic representation behind the team name. If so, asking the wordmark portion of your logo to stand alone on a t-shirt will make for a rather drab block-font presentation of the team's name.

Your sleeve logo makes a game attempt to reference the capitol dome from the primary, but I question whether anyone will even realize that the dome is there amongst the alternating Red and White segments of the star's upper half. I don't find that design choice aesthetically pleasing. Similarly, I don't like the way in which rendering the bottom half of the star in solid Blue leaves the capitol dome device "floating" in the middle of the logo.

Your numeric font doesn't strike me as jibing with any other element of your package.

The presentation portion of your project is overdone. I understand the "logo and uniforms in action" effect that you were going for, but it wasn't worth the effort. The primary concern of the client at this point in the project is to see how the artwork will look on a t-shirt. Allow the client to do so. Obscuring the artwork - even partially - leaves the client wondering what it will look like in a practical application. You were hired to design logos that could be effectively displayed on a softball team's uniforms. You weren't hired to render depictions of athletes in action. Err on the side of simplicity.

Great organization, communication and cooperation were evident throughout your work on this assignment.

Prodigy

Bold choice of palette, as most designers would most likely opt for the more traditional Red, White and Blue color combo to accompany the Senators name. While it worked out well for you, I would caution you against allowing your concerns over what a rival "firm" is doing to steer your choices in this - or, any other area - too much. If an identity leans towards the logical use of a certain palette, don't be afraid to use said colors. In other words, have confidence in your ability to create an identity package that will stand-out from the crowd in ways that aren't tied to color. All of that said, the Royal, Yellow and White palette did work for you. You chose a nice shade of Yellow to complement the Royal Blue and balanced the use of all three colors very nicely.

Your wordmark is rendered in what I'd refer to as a traditional, cursive baseball font... with flair. Extremely nice. That said, I would have like to have seen some attempt to include "North State" somewhere in the wordmark.

In the beginning stages of the design process, I was very concerned as to how the sleeve logo was going to turn out. There was a bit of the "Star of David" about it. However, the decisions you made with regard to coloring the various portions of the logo and positioning its individual elements ultimately allayed my concerns. In fact, your decision to stick with using a rendering of the North Carolina State Legislative Building, as opposed to going with the state house dome, is a perfect example of how to make your design package stand-out from the crowd in ways beyond simply choosing out-of-the-ordinary palette choices.

Your numeric font is outstanding. It ties together nicely with both the wordmark and sleeve logo.

The presentation portion of your finished submission was simple and straight-forward.

Another example of great organization, communication and cooperation amongst team members.

[pcgd]

First off, I was kinda disappointed that both teams reached the same conclusion using a building as the primary icon. With a softball logo (IMO) its your chance to have a little fun with it. I would have loved to see something involving an actual senator, kinda like one of the Washington Senators logos (the pitcher cartoon) Just my opinion, seems to me it was somewhat mailed in on both teams by using a capitol building or other government structure. There were many more options and although it was somewhat explored on the Optimus side, I don't feel that enough time was spent on alternate looks.

That being said, the collaboration of both teams was excellent. I'd have to really examine both threads to find out if anyone didn't at least post a few valuable comments. Excellent work. It'll be very difficult to determine someone to send home this round.

More intense scrutiny time:

OPTIMUS

Wordmark:

The overall logo on this one is decent to me. I like incorporating landmarks that are recognizable and you backed up the use of the building with solid research. I think it could have used a bit more definition in the building. The font is a solid choice but a very safe one. I think some customization (or more if there is some) was needed here. The space underneath the "NORTH STATE" is awkward and easily could have been solved by arching "Senators" along the same line. I then would have increased the size of the building to fill the space between the S's. "NORTH STATE" itself should have been vertically arched instead of radially arched to match up with the banner that contains it. The overall layout is balanced and I like the fact that you tried to make it more than a wordmark and more of a logo.

Sleeve Logo:

Sorry to me this one missed the mark. I think there is just too much going on. The building mark, the beveled star, 3 colors (including the shirt) Just too much. The building isn't simple enough to be contained inside a star IMO. The blue at the bottom looks unfinished, like there should be something else. Perhaps a blue outline around the star would have helped it overall. The same look could have been achieved better with a solid star or an silhouette of the building if you wanted to bevel the star. The sleeve patch and front wordmarks do mesh well together.

Colors:

Good thought process here. Red White and Blue obviously are patriotic and political. And the colors of the state. Safe choice but a correct choice.

Numbers:

Ok, nothing spectacular. No real issues, I would have moved the cross bar down a touch but its not the end of the world. I think you could have gone with a serifed athletic font to match up with the wordmark and been successful, but this font isn't taking away from the overall package.

Template:

Overall its pretty good, lets you see the elements on the shirt and in action. However there is one major flaw with the template and that is blocking your work with the glove. I don't care what angle its at, you shouldn't block the graphic you are trying to sell to the client in the presentation. And even if the glove is technically correct, one of the most important things I learned as a graphic designer and artist is that you have the right to change reality. If it doesn't look right, its not right. Its something I design by: "A Dog has whiskers." Meaning, although a dog in real life does have whiskers, you rarely will draw a cartoon or logo of a dog and include them. Our minds associate whiskers with cats, and even though its anatomically correct for a dog to be depicted with whiskers, it won't look right. Same is true here. Although the angle of the arm may be correct, it just doesn't look right and it should have been changed.

Overall:

A solid performance, but I think you guys could have done much better. I think most of the decisions that were made were very safe. You can't take risks across the board, but you when you are safe across the board you end up with a "So What?" Yeah its solid but there is no Wow factor. There was a bit of a drop off from the first challenge performance. I expect more out of Optimus for challenge three.

PRODIGY

Wordmark:

I like the font selection alot. Its got a traditional softball feel without being over the top. Somewhat modern as well. The treatment of the drop shadow is nice but I think it could have used some shirt color separation around the entire gold part. It blends together a bit from a distance. The white outline is a good size, but I think the jagged edges should have been smoothed out and removed to make a solid outline. Overall nice work.

Sleeve Logo:

A very solid mark. It says softball in a underutilized way. The diamond is a great way to represent the sport. I think you worked in the building very well and both elements blend together. The NS is nice and fits the space well. Its a simple but effective mark that will read very well from a distance. Great work!

Colors:

I think this is the area that I have my biggest issues with your design. The gold is too bright against white in my eyes. Although I'm not a huge fan of royal and yellow together, I can overlook it. But when placed right next to white, the gold/yellow should be darker or a bit more orange. I like the choice to go away from red, white and blue and take a bit of a risk. The color concept is successful, but the execution could have been better.

Numbers:

I love these numbers. They look great as a single digit or a double digit number. They are unique enough that they don't need an outline, they are great as they are. Nice forms, good line weight and very legible. Nothing else to say but good job!

Template:

Sometimes its nice to have a player template, especially on uniforms when you need to represent a hat, jersey, pants, socks, helmet, etc. But when dealing with a t-shirt, its not necessary and I think you guys offer a great example of a nice simple t-shirt design. If I was to get really nitpicky, a small stroke around the shirt might have made it look a bit more finished, but I think you represented your work well and let the graphics do the talking.

Overall:

Excellent work. The elements all work together very well and the overall package is great. I think you guys defiantly stepped it up from the previous challenge. I look forward to the future challenges from your team and I expect this kind of effort and more from you moving forward.

[Mac the Knife]

Okay, I've held my proverbial tongue long enough (a hard, hard task for me in this case). Before getting into specifics I want to commend both teams for their efforts. No matter the final result, both groups put forward a solid effort, and either look will represent an improvement over what I had originally put together for the team.

OPTIMUS

The choice of the red/white/blue color scheme, while somewhat predictable, fits right in line with my original intent. I envisioned the team having basically a Chicago Cubs-like look to it with red and royal blue being the principal colors, and in that sense the scheme you chose was nothing short of perfect.

The combination of the wordmark with a graphic logo (particularly the state capitol dome) was a resoundingly good touch, and while I personally would've went for a prior rendition of the "SENATORS" wordmark (the one posted yesterday morning by ShinyHubCaps), the final design submission was more than suitable.

The secondary (an element which we hadn't actually planned on implementing) sleeve design is also a good touch, but as with the wordmark it was perhaps over-thought and over-worked. A prior rendition of it (which one escapes me off the top of my head) would have worked better, but nonetheless the finished product is good enough that should Optimus' design ultimately be chosen, we will try to find room in our budget to have it implemented - something that will distinguish the Senators from our other teams.

Jersey numbers were not part of my parameters for the design, so from a practicality perspective I'm not worried about the submissions by either team, but from a purely aestethic perspective I'm just not feeling the "blockishness" of the digits. The team would've been better off simply taking a stylish font and making some minor modifications. But again, that element wasn't a factor for me in practical terms - we won't use the numbers from either group (the costs associated with doing so are downright prohibitive for us).

The "jersey rendition" was frankly a bad idea in that instead of adding to the professionalism of the look it instead detracted from it, but as a client I can overlook that, as I have a good idea in my own mind as to how the final, finished product will look.

PRODIGY

The choice of the gold/white/blue color scheme is unique, but it's also problematic in looking at it from a client's perspective - particularly should we opt to implement the wordmark graphic on our web presence, as reduction could make differentiation between the gold and white difficult. This could be corrected with a different secondary color however.

The wordmark on the jersey fronts is solid, and the lack of having a graphical addition (such as the capitol dome) is a "missing element that wouldn't be missed." The script styling of the wordmark is superior, reminding me somewhat of the Washington Senators' scripts of the 1960's and early 1970's but not to the extent that I think it's a rip-off of that concept. As with Optimus, the finished product here is more than suitable.

The secondary sleeve design is where we hit a snag. I understand the thinking behind the implementation of the building in the design, but as has been stated elsewhere the capitol dome is far better recognized than the building where our state senate actually convenes - I've lived here almost 15 years now and I actually had to do some research to realize that the Senate doesn't meet there anymore. I can imagine others having similar confusion. The "NS" implementation, along with the rest of the design for that matter, is top-notch however.

As I stated earlier jersey numbers weren't among my parameters for the design due to cost considerations, but Prodigy clearly earns the win in this category. While it's clear that the New England Patriots numerals were an inspiration for Prodigy's design, it's also clear that some thought was put into selecting a numeral font that meshed well with the other elements of the design.

That all being said, I'm going to cast my vote, tiebreaker or otherwise, for Optimus. The team almost "rode it off the rails" with too many tweaks during the course of their design process, but the finished product nonetheless ended up being the superior choice in my view.

[andrewharrington]

Everything that I'm thinking has already been said in some fashion, but here are some important things I noticed:

1. The level of work is much more equal this time around. I don't know how much of it is Prodigy stepping their work up or how much of it is Optimus lowering theirs. A telling fact, to me, is that a certain player who was key to Optimus' excellent wordmark from Challenge 1 was absent this time around and (coincidentally?) the level of Optimus' entry fell quite a bit. I see a clear front-runner for MVP on the Optimus side.

2. Most printers are not going to be mixing their own colors or printing CMYK process on fabric. More than likely this is going to be printed using spot colors using the silkscreen technique and you need to specify the colors you wan. The printer may have a stock yellow ink that he uses (likely) or he may order a quart of PANTONE 109 if you ask for it. Either way, that sort of thing has to be settled w

3. I was disappointed that both entries were so similar. So predictable. So safe. I like the star secondary developed by Optimus more than anything created by either team, but it seems as if the Prodigy entry has more life. This is so close that everything is won and lost in the details.

Dramatic, huh? Because Prodigy noticeably improved from the last go-round, though, I'll give the tie breaker to them.

[GFB]

OPTIMUS: I have to say, I'm not really feeling this one. There are quite a few things I see just plain wrong with this effort....

Colors: Red, White, and Blue. The logical choice.

Chest Logo: You guys went with a varsity typeface. A safe choice, but it works. My problem is with the dome and the way it is constructed. First off, you curved the bottom of the dome, but the wordmark is straight. That just bugs the crap out of me. Also, the way the dome is constructed, it looks like a 5 minute Illustrator trace. I like the idea of the logo, it's just the execution that sorely lacks.

Sleeve logo: Same as above. Nice idea, just lacking on execution. Poorly rendered building, too much going on above the building, not enough going on below.

Numbers: Perfect numbers, for the Dutch soccer team. Why didn't you try to match your fonts up?

Presentation: I appreciate the effort for the in-the-game presentation. While it may look a little awkward, it's obvious you spent alot of time on it. (My only real gripe is that softballs are green now, not white) If you had put as much time into the rest of your identity as you put into the presentation, you guys would have been better off.

PRODIGY

Your team definitely stepped up this round...

Colors: You gambled on some different color choices and I'd say that it could have been better, but its not a bad change of pace.

Chest Logo: The script is very nice, my favorite part of the entire identity. I don't really understand the slight drop shadow, but it doesn't subtract that much from the wordmark itself...

Sleeve Logo: It's decent. At first, I saw the Star of David as well. But it serves it's purpose and fits nicely with the rest of the identity.

Numbers: Solid. You could have matched the script a little more, but they numerals are unique and I would be pround to wear them.

Presentation: Simple and effective. How it should be.

I'm kinda disappointed that no one tried an identity similar to that of the failed New Hampshire Primaries:

Sweetness.

[Mac the Knife]

(My only real gripe is that softballs are green now, not white)

Actually, yes and no - some associations have finally approved the use of the "optic yellow" ball, but they haven't mandated it. My guys prefer the white ones, to the extent that when our opponents use the optic balls they deliberately hit foul balls out of play so they can hit the white ones.

[Cola]

So, is that all the judges? If so...has a verdict been reached? I'm ready to start the next challenge...

[Mac the Knife]

Apprentice Participants:

Please be advised that in order to get your shirts to you (whichever group is chosen by the panel), I'll need to get all files from your team in Adobe Illustrator 9.0-compatible format (.AI or .EPS). Consequently, if you would, please turn in whatever 'materials' you may have (including 'rejected' or 'preliminary' versions of your designs) to your Task Manager. I'll also need you to PM me with your mailing address (well, if you're from the winning side, that is) so that when they're done, I can get them out to you.

Among the things I'm considering (but unsure if we'll actually do - it depends on a few factors on our end) is put a section of our web site together giving a little article on how the Senators' look came to be. Consequently I'd like to have access to everything I can so as to show the evolution of the chosen design.

Thanks!

[ShinyHubCaps]

Apprentice Participants:

Please be advised that in order to get your shirts to you (whichever group is chosen by the panel), I'll need to get all files from your team in Adobe Illustrator 9.0-compatible format (.AI or .EPS). Consequently, if you would, please turn in whatever 'materials' you may have (including 'rejected' or 'preliminary' versions of your designs) to your Task Manager. I'll also need you to PM me with your mailing address (well, if you're from the winning side, that is) so that when they're done, I can get them out to you.

Among the things I'm considering (but unsure if we'll actually do - it depends on a few factors on our end) is put a section of our web site together giving a little article on how the Senators' look came to be. Consequently I'd like to have access to everything I can so as to show the evolution of the chosen design.

Thanks!

For the unused, preliminary, and "access to everything" designs, would you only need raster images of those? I assume the .ai and .eps are things that have a chance of making the jersey (in other words, no sketches).