The ties are now cut

[ferrousoxide66]

Uh, all this over Jason Bay?

Frankly, the Pirates made out great.

[TFoA]

...lol @ the Pirates making out the best in a trade involving Manny Ramirez and Jason Bay and not getting either. That's an interesting way to see it. Wow.

[infrared41]

Trust me Mac, you'll enjoy sports a lot more once you get past this. Being a "fan" in this day and age is an interesting adjustment when you grow up in the era we did. It's a different animal now. I gave up being a "hardcore" fan of any pro team a few years ago. Doing so has really enhanced my enjoyment of sports overall.

[OnWis97]

Trust me Mac, you'll enjoy sports a lot more once you get past this. Being a "fan" in this day and age is an interesting adjustment when you grow up in the era we did. It's a different animal now. I gave up being a "hardcore" fan of any pro team a few years ago. Doing so has really enhanced my enjoyment of sports overall.

Actually, I feel the opposite. When I lived on the east coast, I did not get to see much of my teams. Going to games out there was OK, but with no rooting interest, it was just not as enjoyable.

I can sympathize with the original post. Small market MLB fans need to understand that you can't be in the hunt every year. However, if it just looks like there is no committment to EVER winning, that can be frustrating. I get building for the future, but someday it has to not be about rebuilding.

Recently, I've had notions about boycotting the Twins. Not because of any trades or lack of trade deadline movement, but because they are a half game out and they just won't bring up Liriano. He's the best starter in the organization and has been very solid in AAA. And why? To save some money based on his tenure? They have a chance to go to the postseason. We purchase tickets in that dump they (under a different owner) lobbied for 30 years ago. We are buying their ballpark. And they won't even use their existing player resources to try to gain that 1/2 game? If that is not a lacking commitment to winning, I don't know what is. I am definitely not buying any tickets for a while. Unless they bring him up, which I don't think they will. And if they don't, I don't know what would ever justify my ending the boycott.

[Mac the Knife]

Uh, all this over Jason Bay?

Frankly, the Pirates made out great.

That may be, but the pattern that many Pirate fans thought would be broken with the new ownership, new GM, new basically everything, wasn't. It's not Jason Bay himself that pisses me off; it's the front office. New boss is the same as the old boss in this case, and that's enough for me.

Some of you know my view on sports in general - it's a business, and as such any decision made in an effort to improve the bottom line can be justified, whether it's trading Jason Bay or moving the Browns to Baltimore. Ultimately the bottom line is what it is - the bottom line; not wins, not losses, not championships. For me the Pirates were my last holdout from that mentality - not that I believed the Pirates were any different really, but growing up as a fan of the team I was willing for years to overlook what I felt were stupid business moves thinking "short-term pain, long-term gain" would make the team better on the field, and subsequently it'd be a win-win for everyone involved. I tend to support teams by looking at them in terms of their overall operation: on the field and off. A team might be 60-102, but if I see that a conscious effort to win has been undertaken and that the front office has some business savvy, I can overlook the won-lost record. The Pirates were like that in the latter part of the 1980's: a loser, but at least you could tell ownership and management were trying.

Then McClatchey bought the team and basically promised a perennial contender if only a new stadium were built. It was built, and he then proceeded to pad the bottom line with greater revenue from increased attendance at the new venue, revenue sharing distributions, and dealing away what few semi-star players the Pirates had, usually one or two a year. Seeing this happen year after year, you tire of it as a fan of the team despite the business sensibilities behind it.

Last year, a ray of hope - Nutting wrested control from McClatchey. He brought in supposedly knowledgable baseball people in the upper echelon positions. He promised comparatively bold, sweeping change. They then fire a no-name manager to hire... an even lesser known commodity. They then start 2008 better than they had in probably close to a decade, within striking distance of a decent record, before the bottom fell out. Okay... Rome wasn't built in a day, but as long as they don't with the team's nucleus and build around the guys (Nady, Bay, Sanchez) then eventually, maybe, the team will at least contend I figured. The cry of the eternal optimist.

And now Nady? Gone. Bay? Gone. Sanchez? If he were hitting anywhere near like he was when he won the batting title, he'd be gone as well. Instead of building around the guys they need to keep, they deal them off to lower their payroll and get more 'prospects' - guys who ultimately for one reason or another generally don't pan out, don't live up to their potential, surprise their scouts, or suck for whatever excuse you want to insert here.

The Pittsburgh Pirates have repeatedly made business decisions that have proven bad for the franchise, both on and off the field. As a fan whose dollars have gone to support their efforts, I'm not foolish enough to have an expectation that they always perform well on the field - baseball's a fickle game, and today's 70-92 team could be tomorrow's WS winner. But I am smart enough now to realize that unless a Mark Cuban-like owner strides into Pittsburgh with deep pockets, unless universal revenue sharing or a salary cap is implemented in baseball, or some other equally unlikely event occurs, the combination of being bad on the field and stupid in the front office is such that the team no longer merits my support.

[Mac the Knife]

Trust me Mac, you'll enjoy sports a lot more once you get past this. Being a "fan" in this day and age is an interesting adjustment when you grow up in the era we did. It's a different animal now. I gave up being a "hardcore" fan of any pro team a few years ago. Doing so has really enhanced my enjoyment of sports overall.

I'm in the same boat, Red... the Pirates were just my last vestige of that. I basically gave up on sports as a whole from a 'true fan' perspective when that Modell moved the Browns.

[quantum]

This thread brings up an interesting notion. My favorite sports league to follow is the NFL. And although I'm a Packer fan, first and foremost, I am an NFL fan. It helps to keep appreciating the product as a whole even though your particular teams is messing up the works.

I used to follow baseball closely up until the '94 strike. I used to follow the Brewers. But when they would continually trade away talent for 'next season", my thinking was if they don't care why should I. I completely understand Mac's attitude. While in years past I would be considered a fair weather fan (and maybe still so), I now can appreciate the Brewers since the new owner seems to care whether this team is successful or not. I still don't follow the Brew Crew like I did as a kid, but sports is different now. In this day and age, fanaticism for one's favorite team is best kept in check.

[BaltimoreFan]

I've watched Andy LaRoche play and honestly he might become a serviceable thirdbaseman, but really he's another one of those prospects you always hear about that have potential. Trust me, he's not all you think he is, he wasn't mismanaged, he was overrated as a minor leaguer. Talented? Yes. All-Star? No. The fact of the matter that Blake Dewitt came in and took the job away from him says all you need to know about LaRoche, he could never secure the 3B job because he's a boarder line major league ball player.

The 3B job was his until he got injured at the begining of the season. DeWitt overachieved and played great, it would have been hard to replace him with the unproven LaRoche at that point. LaRoche never really got a fair chance in LA. I think the change of scenery will be good for him. He could be a top 3B in all of baseball in a few years.

I think the Pirates have made out very well. They've been awful for a long time. It would be too hard to build around Bay (Nady and Sanchez aren't good enough to build around IMO). If the Pirates ever want compete again they'll have to commit to a full out rebuilding process. The best way to do that is by trading your most valuable players. The Pirates don't have enought (or aren't willing to spend enough) money to build around a few guys. So you've got to trade them for younger prospects and hope they work out.

The Pirates have a ton of great hitting prospects now. I know there just prospects, but thats the way the Rays rebuilt and its worked (I'm convinced they'll be the next baseball dynasty). They've seemed to learn the right way to draft as well. Last year they skipped over Wieters (which I'm grateful as an Orioles fan), but this year they took Alvarez. He should be up by 2010 if they can just get him signed (I'd say his on Longoria and Bruce's level). They just need to get some good pitching and they'll be competing soon enough.

[Maz]

Id like to chime in as a Pirates fan whos never seen a winning season in my lifetime (born in april of 93).

After 15+ years of not even finishing above .500 alone, id confidently say any one of you would feel just about as pessimistic.

Us Pirates fans are so used to losing, broken deals, busts, crappy trades, getting fleeced by elite teams, etc., etc. that we really see no reason to believe any longer.

And I say that "small market syndrome" stuff is bull . Do you see the Pirates' promotional schedule?

If they cut out most of the crap they use to lure folks to the ballpark, they could spend far more than they do now.

But thats the problem. We havent had a management crew thats understood the real attraction to the ballpark (WINNING) for the past 15 years, hence why we have this whole "why should we trust him, then?" attitude.

Yeah, there may be hope. But until there is a drastic improvement - results, and not "possibilities" - Pirates fans are going to feel like this.

[CC97]

And I say that "small market syndrome" stuff is bull . Do you see the Pirates' promotional schedule?

If they cut out most of the crap they use to lure folks to the ballpark...

Hey now without that promo crap I wouldn't have three Roberto Clemente commemorative plates just sitting there in my room -- sure they look like the pictures were printed on there using a dot-matrix printer but it's the thought that counts, right?

[mania]

To rebuild, you need a strong farm system. Pittsburgh doesn't have a lot of talent on any level, and getting 4 decent-good prospects, 3 of whom can contribute right away, is a nice haul for Jason Bay, who isn't a superstar type player at all.

With the changes in whose in charge, it can be frustrating, but you have to let a team build a base, especially when a team's been as mismanaged in the past as the Pirates have. You might go from being mediocre to outright bad now, but the payoff will be worth it if they stay the course.

Look at the Rays. They were bad for so long, but now, they have an excellent young core that they can compete with.

[ferrousoxide66]

To rebuild, you need a strong farm system. Pittsburgh doesn't have a lot of talent on any level, and getting 4 decent-good prospects, 3 of whom can contribute right away, is a nice haul for Jason Bay, who isn't a superstar type player at all.

With the changes in whose in charge, it can be frustrating, but you have to let a team build a base, especially when a team's been as mismanaged in the past as the Pirates have. You might go from being mediocre to outright bad now, but the payoff will be worth it if they stay the course.

Look at the Rays. They were bad for so long, but now, they have an excellent young core that they can compete with.

Exactly. You guys weren't winning with Nady or Bay. Get some prospects, build from within. It finally sounds like you've got a GM who knows his stuff. That's all that matters.

Look at Detroit since Dombrowski came aboard. Night and day. Hell, if the Tigers can finally claw back to respectability, anyone can. It's just having the right people making the right decisions. Don't roast the new guy for trying to do the right thing.

[ferrousoxide66]

...lol @ the Pirates making out the best in a trade involving Manny Ramirez and Jason Bay and not getting either. That's an interesting way to see it. Wow.

What's really funny is how everyone's overrating a 37 year old malcontent headcase who likes to take games off at his own leisure. We'll see how that act plays in L.A., where the fans don't owe him a thing for any past glories.

Besides, what would Manny have done for the Pirates right now? A whole lotta NOTHING.

[njmeadowlanders]

They're 1-0 without Bay...

And Karstens wins his Pirates debut.

Raise The Jolly Roger!

(OK, it's one game, no consolation...I know...I know. I've suffered through a lot of losing over my lifetime, but nothing quite like that. So I can't possibly understand that feeling...)

[Wheelhouse]

It really is terrible. I stopped supporting the Pirates before the year started. You can only go so long as a sports fan without some glimmer of hope. There was that one year where they sniffed sneaking into the playoffs in a horrible division, I think around '98 or so, but Houston beat them in the end. It just isn't enough. Maybe Huntington does have the team on the right track, but like any relationship sometimes it's just too little, too late.

Sure Gwen, maybe after fifteen years of infidelity you really are attending therapy to curb your nymphomania. But it might take another two years or so before you stop laying on your back for every single one of your co-workers, and the treatment might not work? I think it's time to find a new girlfriend.

[Maz]

They're 1-0 without Bay...

And Karstens wins his Pirates debut.

Raise The Jolly Roger!

(OK, it's one game, no consolation...I know...I know. I've suffered through a lot of losing over my lifetime, but nothing quite like that. So I can't possibly understand that feeling...)

[off topic]

Ive always kinda disliked that phrase, and Greg Brown for that matter.

Raising a jolly roger in the outfield was cool, along with blinking a beacon atop the Gulf Building (something they oughta do again) and at that time I was ok with the phrase - but then have the stupid pirate mascot waving it, and it ruins it for me, and makes it seem kinda cliche' or gimmicky. (Then again, I completely hated that pirate from the start. The parrot was best solo.)

Gimme Bob Prince's "We had 'em alllll the way!" or even Lanny's spinoff "There was nooooo doubt about it!" any day.

[/off topic]

[Sport]

I think any pessimism from Pirates fans is pretty justified, but you can't tell me that if they are contending for the division in five years you won't be back watching them again. There were not very many Milwuakee Brewers fans at Miller Park just a few years ago when it seemed like they weren't even trying. They've turned it around since and are now leading the wildcard race (well, tied. Thanks for nothing stupid Fin St. Louis Cardinals, I hate them so much).

I don't know what I'm trying to say, other than I guess I understand a little bit. The Reds have been pretty bad for most of my life. I'm too young to remember the 1990 world series and I didn't understand the gravity of making it to the NLCS in 95 as an 8 year old. I have gotten to experience one magical Reds season and that was in 99 when they choked away the wildcard. Since then they've been pretty much irrelevant (except for 06 when they lost the division by only 3 games). Maybe the better example is the Cincinnati Bengals who were so bad the fans tried to sue the team. I know I questioned why I had so much loyalty to a team with such terrible ownership that for at least 12 years wasn't even trying to win. I still question myself during Bengals season.

I think for the sake of competitive play, league parity, and avoiding fan moments like this we would all like to see a salary cap in baseball. It would take baseball into the modern era like the other team sports have been for years. It would mean that your baseball team might be terrible this season, but you can always count on a different team in only a few years.

[The_Admiral]

No thank you. Please don't ruin baseball with all that "capology" horsehockey that the NBA has, with "expiring contracts" and so forth. You don't need to spend money to succeed in baseball, and you certainly don't need to pinch pennies to fail, either.

[Mac the Knife]

I think any pessimism from Pirates fans is pretty justified, but you can't tell me that if they are contending for the division in five years you won't be back watching them again.

You obviously don't know me that well. Pre-Cleveland Browns move to Baltimore I was a die-hard fan not just of the Browns but the NFL as a whole - I attended games regularly, even shelled out the jack to go to the Super Bowl each year. Know how many NFL games I've attended since 1995? None. Know how many NFL games I've watched on TV since? I can count them on one hand, and not even then did I watch them beginning to end.

This for all intent and purpose is a "You're dead to me, Fredo" declaration. I've had it.

[Maz]

I think any pessimism from Pirates fans is pretty justified, but you can't tell me that if they are contending for the division in five years you won't be back watching them again.

You obviously don't know me that well. Pre-Cleveland Browns move to Baltimore I was a die-hard fan not just of the Browns but the NFL as a whole - I attended games regularly, even shelled out the jack to go to the Super Bowl each year. Know how many NFL games I've attended since 1995? None. Know how many NFL games I've watched on TV since? I can count them on one hand, and not even then did I watch them beginning to end.

This for all intent and purpose is a "You're dead to me, Fredo" declaration. I've had it.

I can understand abandoning the browns after they moved, but comparing that to what happened yesterday, I think you oughta give the Pirates a second chance.

I have this wierd feeling thats like theres a tiny part of me that knows its very unlikely theyll turn it around, but another part of me is more 100% sure this losing cant and wont last much longer - which is the same unexplainable feeling I had about the steelers going on to win SBXL and the pens getting a new arena and staying in Pittsburgh.