Carolina League to Grow and California League to Shrink by Two Teams?

[cappital92]

BiB, do the Potomac Nationals claim Fairfax County as their territory?

[Seadragon76]

I was thinking... If the Carolina League wants to expand and the California League would end up contracting Bakersfield and High Desert, there are two locations wtihin the Carolina League's footprint that would be perfect: Blacksburg, Virginia and Roanoke, Virginia.

These two cities are more then capable of handling a Single-A team there. Why not.

Because, Minor League Baseball's territorial rules allow the Carolina League's Salem Avalanche to block teams from entering either city.

Salem and Roanoke border each other, so there is really no need for a separate team in the latter municipality. Further, Minor League Baseball's current territorial rules are county-based. Salem claims Roanoke County, as well as adjacent counties such as Montgomery County - the location of Blacksburg.

Hm? Well, that got shot down quckly. But, when you read it, it makes sense with the rules and all. Now, where else do you go to put a team if this goes through? I'd say Dover, Delaware would be an option, but it could (and I stress that part) interfere with the territory of the Wilmington Blue Rocks.

[Brian in Boston]

BiB, do the Potomac Nationals claim Fairfax County as their territory?

I'm not sure. Strictly based upon the geographic criteria outlined under MiLB policy, they could. However, Fairfax County is most definitely within the Washington Nationals' territory and a Major League club's territorial claim trumps that of a minor league club.

Generally speaking, an affiliated minor league baseball team's territory consists of the county within which it operates, immediately adjacent counties and an additional fifteen-mile buffer beyond those outlying counties. Overlap of the buffer zones is only allowed when all parties (teams, leagues the MiLB president, etc.) come to an agreement to do so. Higher classification teams can place a claim for a territory, but must compensate the lower classification team (and its league) that is displaced.

Note that the county rules were put in place with more of an eye towards protecting Eastern teams. Counties in the Eastern portion of the country tend to be smaller. In the Western part of the country, where some counties can be quite large, MiLB will allow more than one team to operate in a county. For instance, the California League's High Desert Mavericks, Inland Empire 66ers and Rancho Cucamonga Quakes all operate in San Bernardino County.

That said, the fact that San Bernardino and Rancho Cucamonga both host teams points out that overall population of a region can also trump geography. The home ballparks of the 66ers and Quakes are located less than 21 miles from one another. That said, San Bernardino's municipal population is over 205,000 and Rancho Cucamonga's is over 140,000. Thus, the MiLB president has ruled that the Inland Empire's overall population is more than capable of supporting the two teams.

[rams80]

Any news on the Midwest League pilfering a pair of Sally League markets?

I have heard that one too, but nothing on the table now. The teams under speculation were Lake County and the new Bowling Green, KY team (relocated Columbus, GA)

So Lexington stays put then?

[TBGKon]

Any news on the Midwest League pilfering a pair of Sally League markets?

I have heard that one too, but nothing on the table now. The teams under speculation were Lake County and the new Bowling Green, KY team (relocated Columbus, GA)

So Lexington stays put then?

Thats what I have heard rumored, but nothing definite. It could be any 2 of those 3.

[Mac the Knife]

Anyone have any hard data on what a franchise in the Carolina League goes for nowadays?

[rvrdgsfn]

Rumor has been spreading about Richmond getting a Carolina team which I would love to see, other rumors that had been running rampant, either the Eastern League or the Atlantic League. Either way, I want baseball back in the capital.

[Joshawaggie]

When I read the title, I immediately thought Bakersfield. As most of ya know, I was just there for work for 3 months, and I caught a game there. The attendance was pathetic. As I was walking in, the stadium looked pretty bad. I was suprised when I got in the stadium seating area that it didn't look THAT bad, newer seating, etc. I found out that they had already HAD to remodel some because the Rangers (parent club) threatened to leave if they didn't. Bakersfield is a pretty big place (~500,000), but apparentley don't care about their team.

[cappital92]

Rumor has been spreading about Richmond getting a Carolina team which I would love to see, other rumors that had been running rampant, either the Eastern League or the Atlantic League. Either way, I want baseball back in the capital.

I'm thinking Richmond should pull a Portland Rockies. House a smaller minor leauge team to prove that the area can be home to baseball.

[mkwing]

When I read the title, I immediately thought Bakersfield. As most of ya know, I was just there for work for 3 months, and I caught a game there. The attendance was pathetic. As I was walking in, the stadium looked pretty bad. I was suprised when I got in the stadium seating area that it didn't look THAT bad, newer seating, etc. I found out that they had already HAD to remodel some because the Rangers (parent club) threatened to leave if they didn't. Bakersfield is a pretty big place (~500,000), but apparentley don't care about their team.

OK, but what about High Desert? I'll admit I know next-to-nothing about the California League. But I've been on the Mavericks' site,and had a peek at their stadium, and it all looks pretty good from here. Are they having attendance problems? Trending lower, or historically down?

[TBGKon]

http://ballparkwatch.com/

Ballpark Digest reports that Columbia, SC may be a possible Carolina League team, as well as the previously thought Richmond and Fayetteville.

Some other cities I thought of were former South Coast League cities, since that league folded. I wonder if cities like Aiken, SC and Anderson, SC could be targeted if new venues are built.

[Brian in Boston]

http://ballparkwatch.com/

I read that piece this morning. While I agree that Richmond will ultimately play host to a relocated Double-A Eastern League team (Erie? Norwich?), citing the city's population as a driving force behind such a move strikes me as being far too simplistic. After all, several current Single-A markets either exceed Richmond's municipal population or come damn close to doing so: Bakersfield, Boise, Brooklyn, Fort Wayne, Greensboro, Lexington, Modesto, San Bernardino, San Jose, Spokane, Staten Island, Stockton, Vancouver and Winston-Salem all leap to mind.

Ballpark Digest reports that Columbia, SC may be a possible Carolina League team, as well as the previously thought Richmond and Fayetteville.

Columbia wouldn't have territorial concerns, though the stadium problems that resulted in the Capital City Bombers relocating to Greenville haven't exactly been solved. Capital City Stadium's field of play has always had significant drainage problems. I don't know that those problems have been addressed by management of the Columbia Blowfish.

The Blowfish could be another problem. I don't know how iron-clad their lease is with the stadium. They've had success at the gate and may not want to relocate. Would sharing Capital City Stadium - and the marketplace - with a summer collegiate league team be a major problem for a Single-A franchise?

If owners of a prospective Columbia-based Carolina League team balked at sharing Capital City Stadium with the Blowfish, what exactly would be their options? The University of South Carolina baseball program was looking to gouge the Bombers for the right to share the Gamecocks' new stadium, which ended up playing a role in the team relocating. Would the university be any more amenable to working with an affiliated minor-league baseball team this time around?

Some other cities I thought of were former South Coast League cities, since that league folded. I wonder if cities like Aiken, SC and Anderson, SC could be targeted if new venues are built.

Aiken is located in Aiken County, South Carolina, which is adjacent to Richmond County, Georgia... home to the City of Augusta and the South Atlantic League's GreenJackets. Anderson is in Anderson County, which is adjacent to Greenville County... home to the City of Greenville and the South Atlantic League's Greenville Drive.

[VirginiaTechSucks]

BiB, do the Potomac Nationals claim Fairfax County as their territory?

I'm not sure. Strictly based upon the geographic criteria outlined under MiLB policy, they could. However, Fairfax County is most definitely within the Washington Nationals' territory and a Major League club's territorial claim trumps that of a minor league club.

Generally speaking, an affiliated minor league baseball team's territory consists of the county within which it operates, immediately adjacent counties and an additional fifteen-mile buffer beyond those outlying counties. Overlap of the buffer zones is only allowed when all parties (teams, leagues the MiLB president, etc.) come to an agreement to do so. Higher classification teams can place a claim for a territory, but must compensate the lower classification team (and its league) that is displaced.

Note that the county rules were put in place with more of an eye towards protecting Eastern teams. Counties in the Eastern portion of the country tend to be smaller. In the Western part of the country, where some counties can be quite large, MiLB will allow more than one team to operate in a county. For instance, the California League's High Desert Mavericks, Inland Empire 66ers and Rancho Cucamonga Quakes all operate in San Bernardino County.

That said, the fact that San Bernardino and Rancho Cucamonga both host teams points out that overall population of a region can also trump geography. The home ballparks of the 66ers and Quakes are located less than 21 miles from one another. That said, San Bernardino's municipal population is over 205,000 and Rancho Cucamonga's is over 140,000. Thus, the MiLB president has ruled that the Inland Empire's overall population is more than capable of supporting the two teams.

If I am not mistaken, Potomac, formerly Prince William claims Prince William County as their territory. The ballpark is near Potomac Mills outlet mall right off I-95 about 20 miles or so south of DC.

About Salem, I live 1 mile from the Roanoke County/Salem border and 2 miles from the ballpark. BIB was right on the money with what he said. Rumors keep flying around here that when the Red Sox now owning the Avalanche, they want to go AA in the next couple of years. The stadium is 13 years old but it was built at AA standards and unless someone told you the age you wouldn't know it was that old. I haven't heard the first anything about this on the news or in the papers around here.

[fiasco!]

Some other cities I thought of were former South Coast League cities, since that league folded. I wonder if cities like Aiken, SC and Anderson, SC could be targeted if new venues are built.

Aiken is located in Aiken County, South Carolina, which is adjacent to Richmond County, Georgia... home to the City of Augusta and the South Atlantic League's GreenJackets. Anderson is in Anderson County, which is adjacent to Greenville County... home to the City of Greenville and the South Atlantic League's Greenville Drive.

Anderson is also home to the Anderson Joes of the (suspended) South Coast League.

[sc49erfan15]

Some other cities I thought of were former South Coast League cities, since that league folded. I wonder if cities like Aiken, SC and Anderson, SC could be targeted if new venues are built.

Aiken is located in Aiken County, South Carolina, which is adjacent to Richmond County, Georgia... home to the City of Augusta and the South Atlantic League's GreenJackets. Anderson is in Anderson County, which is adjacent to Greenville County... home to the City of Greenville and the South Atlantic League's Greenville Drive.

Anderson is also home to the Anderson Joes of the (suspended) South Coast League.

I mascoted at the Joes' stadium last year, and I'd be extremely surprised if the Joes, or even that league, got back on its feet.

There were probably less than 500 people in attendance, the field was in bad shape, and the "stadium" is little more than concrete seats on a hill.

[Brian in Boston]

If I am not mistaken, Potomac, formerly Prince William claims Prince William County as their territory. The ballpark is near Potomac Mills outlet mall right off I-95 about 20 miles or so south of DC.

Prince William County is the core county in their territory. Under MiLB territorial rules, immediately adjacent counties also figure into their territory. That would include Fairfax County.

Rumors keep flying around here that when the Red Sox now owning the Avalanche, they want to go AA in the next couple of years.

I can't imagine Fenway Sports Group taking Salem to Double-A.

The Red Sox are thrilled to have their Double-A affiliate located in Portland, Maine - an easy two-hour drive from Fenway Park. They're not going to swap the convenience of a Double-A affiliate located 107 miles from the big league club for a farm team located 674 miles away.

Further, the reason the Red Sox purchased the Avalanche is because they no longer want to have their Class A Advanced affiliate playing a continent away in the California League. Beginning with the 2009 season, the Sox are looking forward to having their Class A Advanced affiliate playing ball in Salem, Virginia in the Carolina League.

[Jigga]

Some other cities I thought of were former South Coast League cities, since that league folded. I wonder if cities like Aiken, SC and Anderson, SC could be targeted if new venues are built.

Aiken is located in Aiken County, South Carolina, which is adjacent to Richmond County, Georgia... home to the City of Augusta and the South Atlantic League's GreenJackets. Anderson is in Anderson County, which is adjacent to Greenville County... home to the City of Greenville and the South Atlantic League's Greenville Drive.

Anderson is also home to the Anderson Joes of the (suspended) South Coast League.

I mascoted at the Joes' stadium last year, and I'd be extremely surprised if the Joes, or even that league, got back on its feet.

There were probably less than 500 people in attendance, the field was in bad shape, and the "stadium" is little more than concrete seats on a hill.

Too bad this league is dead...they were a GREAT looking group. Along with the Golden League, they were better top-to-bottom than any of the MiLB leagues.

[buzzcut]

From Ballpark Watch.....a possible kiss of death:

Speaking of the Carolina League/California League shift: money may doom the proposal. The original proposal had the Carolina League buying Bakersfield and High Desert $4 million for their franchises, but that doesn't appear to be enough money: a sale of the Lancaster JetHawks to an existing Pioneer League owner was scrapped in the last two weeks, but that deal had the franchise valued at $5.8 million -- and we can't believe Bakersfield and High Desert are worth than much less than Lancaster. (Also, it looks like the asking price of a Pioneer League franchise is now close to $3 million, according to one potential buyer, which also argues for a higher valuation for a Cal League franchise.)

As far as the Sally/MWL tiff is going along:

On the Sally League/Midwest League front, we heard about some serious opposition to the proposal from Midwest League owners, and it's not hard to see why: three Iowa teams would need to sign travel waivers if Lake County and Bowling Green entered the league. Still, we don't know of any organized opposition to the proposal in the Midwest League, and it may be up to the Sally League owners to put the kibbosh on the deal.

Before the gag order from St. Pete went into effect, we heard one consistent thing from many owners: before leagues were realigned, St. Pete should wait to see what happens with other potential franchise moves. (For example, the thought is that Omaha could end up home to Midwest League baseball if the Omaha Royals follow through with their threat to leave the market.) Shifting franchises may not be the way to solve the Richmond issue (though more than one owner suggested a simple solution to any potential territory spats: declare the southern boundary of the Eastern League to be Bowie, which makes Richmond Carolina League territory).

[buzzcut]

An addendum to the last story: There is a possibility that the Triple A level may be realigned again, this time to 3 leagues(same as prior to 1998). Could an arrangement like the following alignment work?

International League

Northern Division:

Buffalo, Pawtucket, Rochester, Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, Syracuse

Southern Division:

Charlotte, Durham. Gwinnet, Lehigh Valley, Norfolk

Central League(NEW)

Northern Division:

Iowa, Omaha(From PCL); Columbus, Indianapolis, Louisville, Toledo(From IL)

Southern Division(All from PCL):

Colorado Springs, Memphis, Nashville, New Orleans, Oklahoma, Round Rock

Pacific Coast League

Eastern Division:

Albuquerque, Las Vegas, Reno, Salt Lake

Western Division:

Fresno, Portland, Sacramento, Tacoma

[Mac the Knife]

An addendum to the last story: There is a possibility that the Triple A level may be realigned again, this time to 3 leagues(same as prior to 1998). Could an arrangement like the following alignment work?

International League

Northern Division:

Buffalo, Pawtucket, Rochester, Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, Syracuse

Southern Division:

Charlotte, Durham. Gwinnet, Lehigh Valley, Norfolk

Central League(NEW)

Northern Division:

Iowa, Omaha(From PCL); Columbus, Indianapolis, Louisville, Toledo(From IL)

Southern Division(All from PCL):

Colorado Springs, Memphis, Nashville, New Orleans, Oklahoma, Round Rock

Pacific Coast League

Eastern Division:

Albuquerque, Las Vegas, Reno, Salt Lake

Western Division:

Fresno, Portland, Sacramento, Tacoma

Not that I dispute this, but what's your source for this information? It seems surprising to me that they'd consider breaking AAA-level back up into three leagues when they had to move some mountains to get the AA out of the picture.