McGwire comes clean

[NJTank]

I do believe La Russa knew more than he is telling everyone he knew. I'm glad he has supported McGwire through all this. But I'm sure he knew.

Of course he did, all GMs and Ownwers all knew what was happening and lloked the other way and may have even encouraged it.

[Shumway]

While I think McGwire did the right thing in admitting the obvious, I don't think the timing was right. I have a feeling the Cardinals' season's going to be "McGwire-this" and "McGwire-that" rather than "Pujols, Holliday, Carpenter....", which isn't right. Circuses are never a good thing in pro sports.

"I like the whopper, f*** the Big Mac."

[pcgd]

I always knew he did it, but never wanted to believe it.

Because if he did it, McGuire and Sosa completely duped a 16 year old kid into falling in love with baseball again.

There are so many Cardinal fans that follow baseball because of this man and what he did. Same with Cubs fans and so many baseball fans that love the game today. Its hard for me to be against him because Sosa and McGwire gave me baseball back after the 94 strike. Would Pujols, Griffey, Frank Thomas, A-Rod, or any of the other stars since then brought me back? Perhaps, but by that time there might not have been a game to say. I do know at that time and place, that season made me a huge baseball fan and I have not looked back since.

I have such mixed feelings on the subject and always have. I know some of you can say without a doubt if you were in this situation you wouldn't take anything, but I can't say that. If I was given a pill that would make me one of the greatest designers in the history of design, I had little possibility of getting caught, it might take 5 years off my life, and I could not only set up myself but my kids and grandkids up for life, It'd be really hard for me not to take it. On the other hand, I would draw the line at plagiarizing to reach the same goal. So I dunno.

I also have a hard time vilifying the steroid era players when professional athletes have been cheating for an edge since the beginning of sport, even more so in baseball. Stealing signs is such a part of the game barely anyone thinks of it as cheating. Spitballers (who threw spitballs after they were illegal) are in the hall of fame. Putting pine tar, scuffing a ball or cutting a ball gets you tossed from the game and maybe a few games suspension and that's it. Players have drank 'leaded' and 'unleaded' pots of coffee well before the steroid era, heck amphetamines have only been illegal for a few seasons! Its harder to find a player that didn't take a greenie than it is to find a player who pitched a game on LSD.

All I'm saying is I hate what he did. I hate that I was duped (back then, 05 was when I full came around to him being a cheat).

I don't hate that I love baseball, but I hate that I have Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa to thank for that.

[HedleyLamarr]

I'm not knocking you. I'd just like to point this out. No one has hit over 40 home runs in a season since the current PED testing policy was put in place. None of the other "excuses" for 50+ home run seasons seem to be holding up. No one has suddenly built "bigger ballparks." There hasn't been any further "dilution of pitching" due to expansion. Players are still following the same "workout regimens." The only "explanation" that is even remotely plausible is that the ball is no longer "juiced" or "a rabbit ball" etc. Since no new factors have come along to explain the power explosion of the "steroid era", what do you suppose is the reason for the sudden drop off in power numbers?

You may need a "smoking gun" before you decide to take off the blinders but it's pretty damned obvious to me.

Just saying...

Simple....pitching is finally starting to catch up.

Sure, MLB last expanded in 1998, but it takes a long time to produce MLB-quality pitching. There are more guys that can hit a 95-mph fastball than there are those that can throw a ball 95-mph.

Also, teams in hitter-friendly parks are starting to learn how to pitch in their building, as are their opponents. Colorado has a humidor...that's curbed homeruns.

[BBTV]

I always knew he did it, but never wanted to believe it.

Because if he did it, McGuire and Sosa completely duped a 16 year old kid into falling in love with baseball again.

There are so many Cardinal fans that follow baseball because of this man and what he did. Same with Cubs fans and so many baseball fans that love the game today. Its hard for me to be against him because Sosa and McGwire gave me baseball back after the 94 strike. Would Pujols, Griffey, Frank Thomas, A-Rod, or any of the other stars since then brought me back? Perhaps, but by that time there might not have been a game to say. I do know at that time and place, that season made me a huge baseball fan and I have not looked back since.

I have such mixed feelings on the subject and always have. I know some of you can say without a doubt if you were in this situation you wouldn't take anything, but I can't say that. If I was given a pill that would make me one of the greatest designers in the history of design, I had little possibility of getting caught, it might take 5 years off my life, and I could not only set up myself but my kids and grandkids up for life, It'd be really hard for me not to take it. On the other hand, I would draw the line at plagiarizing to reach the same goal. So I dunno.

I also have a hard time vilifying the steroid era players when professional athletes have been cheating for an edge since the beginning of sport, even more so in baseball. Stealing signs is such a part of the game barely anyone thinks of it as cheating. Spitballers (who threw spitballs after they were illegal) are in the hall of fame. Putting pine tar, scuffing a ball or cutting a ball gets you tossed from the game and maybe a few games suspension and that's it. Players have drank 'leaded' and 'unleaded' pots of coffee well before the steroid era, heck amphetamines have only been illegal for a few seasons! Its harder to find a player that didn't take a greenie than it is to find a player who pitched a game on LSD.

All I'm saying is I hate what he did. I hate that I was duped (back then, 05 was when I full came around to him being a cheat).

I don't hate that I love baseball, but I hate that I have Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa to thank for that.

In a game where being able to hit a ball an extra 10 feet can earn you an extra $20 million on your next contract, it's not difficult to understand why some of these guys did it. Also, if you're not a star player and you're competing for a roster spot against guys who are juicing, you may feel that you have to juice just to be on a level playing field. It's really hard for me to be pissed at these guys, because I honestly believe that no matter how wrong I think it is, if I was in their shoes, I probably would do it. Honestly, I think most people on here would consider doing it if they were in that position. It's just easier to come on a message board and say how wrong and evil people are. Again... not saying that it's right, or even OK, just that I understand.

[scottysprings]

After seeing this picture in one of my old SI for Kids magazines a few years ago I wasn't sure how someone could've fooled themselves that he wasn't on some sort of PED.

[Lee.]

So what qualifies McGwire on being a hitting coach?

He obviously can't suggest using "this stuff a doc friend prescribed for me" for the Cardinals batters....

I don't know if you're serious with your original question or not, but it's because he's one hell of a good hitter and teacher of hitting. Look at his final 6-8 years (minus his last injury riddled season). The guy learned how to hit. Not just hit them out, but he learned how to hit. He learned how to study the pitcher, how to put the right swing on the ball. He learned the science of hitting.

And while his suggestion to Matt Holliday didn't work last year, he did a great deal of good with a number of other hitters he's worked with privately. He's certainly qualified. There's no guarantee of success, but it's not out of left field (excuse the baseball pun).

How can a guy with a career .263 batting average be considered a hell of a good hitter? Ryne Sandberg was a .285 hitter, and no one talks about his plate skills.

Hell's bells, even his .380 lifetime OBP isn't even in the top 100. His slugging percentage is good, bordering on great, but let's not rewrite history into making him that much better than he was. He's no Mister 3000; hell, he's no Andre 3000. He's Dave Kingman with a better publicist.

[pcgd]

I don't know how much I believe it, but the argument could be made that no two players (right or wrong) have more to do with the state of the game today than Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa and that combined with their boarderline hall of fame careers, they should be in the hall of fame.

Without them, is baseball just fighting to beat the MLS or NHL for popularity? Yes its been overtaken by football but that was going to happen strike or no strike. I don't know many people that are fans today that in some way can't say that the summer of 98 made the bigger fans of the game or brought them back completely.

I think both of them have stats that you could make an argument for or against, but combined with the summer of 98 even if its a fraud, they had a great impact on the game for the good. You could say its for the bad as well, but I don't. Both are a result of the system, they were far from the first users.

I'm halfway to convincing myself that I'd want them in for their playing careers and that season. Maybe just a feature of it with the bats, balls, and a note about the andro, steroids and HGH included about that season.

[infrared41]

I'm not knocking you. I'd just like to point this out. No one has hit over 40 home runs in a season since the current PED testing policy was put in place. None of the other "excuses" for 50+ home run seasons seem to be holding up. No one has suddenly built "bigger ballparks." There hasn't been any further "dilution of pitching" due to expansion. Players are still following the same "workout regimens." The only "explanation" that is even remotely plausible is that the ball is no longer "juiced" or "a rabbit ball" etc. Since no new factors have come along to explain the power explosion of the "steroid era", what do you suppose is the reason for the sudden drop off in power numbers?

You may need a "smoking gun" before you decide to take off the blinders but it's pretty damned obvious to me.

Just saying...

Simple....pitching is finally starting to catch up.

Sure, MLB last expanded in 1998, but it takes a long time to produce MLB-quality pitching. There are more guys that can hit a 95-mph fastball than there are those that can throw a ball 95-mph.

Also, teams in hitter-friendly parks are starting to learn how to pitch in their building, as are their opponents. Colorado has a humidor...that's curbed homeruns.

Oh come on Hedley. You can't be serious. Power numbers drop the minute they start seriously testing for steroids and you think it's because pitching caught up? Or because guys are learning to pitch in their buildings?

As a baseball fan, I completely understand not wanting all the steroids allegations to be true. What I'll never understand are some of the rationalizations we use to blame any and everything but the obvious.

[STL FANATIC]

So what qualifies McGwire on being a hitting coach?

He obviously can't suggest using "this stuff a doc friend prescribed for me" for the Cardinals batters....

I don't know if you're serious with your original question or not, but it's because he's one hell of a good hitter and teacher of hitting. Look at his final 6-8 years (minus his last injury riddled season). The guy learned how to hit. Not just hit them out, but he learned how to hit. He learned how to study the pitcher, how to put the right swing on the ball. He learned the science of hitting.

And while his suggestion to Matt Holliday didn't work last year, he did a great deal of good with a number of other hitters he's worked with privately. He's certainly qualified. There's no guarantee of success, but it's not out of left field (excuse the baseball pun).

How can a guy with a career .263 batting average be considered a hell of a good hitter? Ryne Sandberg was a .285 hitter, and no one talks about his plate skills.

Hell's bells, even his .380 lifetime OBP isn't even in the top 100. His slugging percentage is good, bordering on great, but let's not rewrite history into making him that much better than he was. He's no Mister 3000; hell, he's no Andre 3000. He's Dave Kingman with a better publicist.

It's important to note that I'm approaching this from why he'd make a good hitting coach, not from why he deserves to be in the HOF (although we did discuss that shortly in the Hot Stove thread a couple of days back).

That said, what do they talk about with Ryne Sandberg? I know he was a good defender, but coming into my baseball viewing as he was leaving the game, I always thought one of the things that made Sandberg great was that he was a good hitter.

Anyways, back to the point, like I said, look at McGwire's numbers in his more recent years. I like to go from 1993-2000 (cutting out a injury plagued final season) because it gives him an 8 year span at .289. But perhaps a better one, not because of average but because it allows for the reports that he spent his injury riddled 1993-1994 really studying hitting, is to look at 1996-2000. In those 5 season, he hit .291. (If you include 1995, it goes back to .289--he hit .274 that year, which even then showed improvement.)

I'm not suggesting that .291 blows anybody away as a great hitter, but that's a good hitter no? And it supports the idea that he truly did learn the science of hitting in the mid-ninties. Further, his success as a private hitting instructor with players like Skip Schumaker and Chris Duncan (major back injuries may have ended his career, that's TBD) back up the idea that he does a good job translating that to hitters. And especially in the case of Schumaker, it's not just as a power hitter.

I might have gone a bit to far with "one hell of a good hitter", but again, take note to what I was actually saying. I saw simply clarifying that there's plenty of good reason to give the man a chance to a hitting coach. It's not just some favor or prayer by Tony LaRussa. There's legitimate reason to believe the guy can do a good job in that role.

[STL FANATIC]

After seeing this picture in one of my old SI for Kids magazines a few years ago I wasn't sure how someone could've fooled themselves that he wasn't on some sort of PED.

Yeah. Milk.

Duh.

[oddball]

I'm in agreement with Red on this, power numbers drop significantly when they start testing and to prove that the game was filled with junkies, look at how much of a civ Manny Ramirez was after his suspension and I'm a Dodger fan. Sure, after expansion it takes about 10 years for pitching to catch up, but guess what? The pitching in MLB today suck as teams barely have 3 decent, not quality starters. There are way too many guys in the majors that don't belong and yet with this crappy pitching power numbers dropped significantly since they started testing.

[infrared41]

You know after thinking about it a little more, it probably is just that the pitching has gotten better. There's nothing that even remotely suggests the use of PEDs. My mistake.

[STL FANATIC]

I'm not knocking you. I'd just like to point this out. No one has hit over 40 home runs in a season since the current PED testing policy was put in place. None of the other "excuses" for 50+ home run seasons seem to be holding up. No one has suddenly built "bigger ballparks." There hasn't been any further "dilution of pitching" due to expansion. Players are still following the same "workout regimens." The only "explanation" that is even remotely plausible is that the ball is no longer "juiced" or "a rabbit ball" etc. Since no new factors have come along to explain the power explosion of the "steroid era", what do you suppose is the reason for the sudden drop off in power numbers?

You may need a "smoking gun" before you decide to take off the blinders but it's pretty damned obvious to me.

Just saying...

Simple....pitching is finally starting to catch up.

Sure, MLB last expanded in 1998, but it takes a long time to produce MLB-quality pitching. There are more guys that can hit a 95-mph fastball than there are those that can throw a ball 95-mph.

Also, teams in hitter-friendly parks are starting to learn how to pitch in their building, as are their opponents. Colorado has a humidor...that's curbed homeruns.

Oh come on Hedley. You can't be serious. Power numbers drop the minute they start seriously testing for steroids and you think it's because pitching caught up? Or because guys are learning to pitch in their buildings?

As a baseball fan, I completely understand not wanting all the steroids allegations to be true. What I'll never understand are some of the rationalizations we use to blame any and everything but the obvious.

I just want to clarify that I definitely think drug testing is the biggest reason that power numbers dropped. And I think PEDs almost certainly played a role in Mark McGwire's power numbers.

But my two key points are.

(1) Huge power seasons still can and will happen. Ryan Howard hit 58 homers just 3 seasons ago.

(2) Generational would be too strong, but Mark McGwire could have been I'll say a "few in a generation" type of power hitter at the very least. All indications as he came up and in his first year were indeed that. So while 70 probably wouldn't have happened, and thus, perhaps not 583 either, Mark McGwire probably would have hit a lot of homers, and he very possibly could have still had a record breaking season.

[jkrdevil]

I don't know how much I believe it, but the argument could be made that no two players (right or wrong) have more to do with the state of the game today than Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa and that combined with their boarderline hall of fame careers, they should be in the hall of fame.

Without them, is baseball just fighting to beat the MLS or NHL for popularity? Yes its been overtaken by football but that was going to happen strike or no strike. I don't know many people that are fans today that in some way can't say that the summer of 98 made the bigger fans of the game or brought them back completely.

I think both of them have stats that you could make an argument for or against, but combined with the summer of 98 even if its a fraud, they had a great impact on the game for the good. You could say its for the bad as well, but I don't. Both are a result of the system, they were far from the first users.

I'm halfway to convincing myself that I'd want them in for their playing careers and that season. Maybe just a feature of it with the bats, balls, and a note about the andro, steroids and HGH included about that season.

There are a few other post I want to comment on but I wanted to comment on this first in a separate post. McGwire and Sosa did not save baseball. Baseball never even need saving. Sure it took a bit of a hit after the strike but it lasted only a year or two and was healed by time. There is no empirical evidence that the 1998 baseball season "saved" baseball. In one of these threads awhile back I looked at the different metrics available (attendance, World Series & All-Star ratings) and saw there was no big spike in either after the 1998 season. If I remember correctly there was a bigger spike in either the 1996 or '97 season than in '98 or '99 season. Now Sosa and McGwire did have a big impact on media impressions but I don't think it translated into greater popularity for the game as a whole. Likewise it certainly drove attendance for that season in St. Louis and Chicago (A pennant race in Chicago also played a key role) and when those teams came into town but again I don't think it translated to the sport as whole.

I think where this idea of the home race race saving baseball comes from is that arguably more than any other sport Baseball tends to gets out in mythical terms. There is a romanticism that many of the big "purist" (Costas, George Will, ect, those types) that tend to blow up the proportion of any event. Thus the effects of the '94 strike get blown up and so does the home run race that supposedly saved baseball. As I said before it didn't save baseball because baseball didn't need saving. It's a myth.

And even if you want to argue that baseball needed saving one could argue that the resurgence of the Yankees had as much to do with it (I wouldn't buy that argument either).

Since you bring up the NHL I would be interested in looking at the bounce back that league has had since its lockout compared to baseball. However it is 1:30 here and I don't have time right now.

[HedleyLamarr]

Oh come on Hedley. You can't be serious. Power numbers drop the minute they start seriously testing for steroids and you think it's because pitching caught up? Or because guys are learning to pitch in their buildings?

As a baseball fan, I completely understand not wanting all the steroids allegations to be true. What I'll never understand are some of the rationalizations we use to blame any and everything but the obvious.

Steroids weren't the sole reason power numbers went up in the 90's.

Baseball expanded by four teams. Ballparks got smaller. American League teams were starting to use DH-only players instead of rotating the DH around. Pitchers that weren't MLB-ready were forced to pitch in the majors before they were ready to. Batters weren't as concerned about striking out, and thus swung for the fences with two strikes. (And, in turn, managers started to manage the lineup in a way where they wait for a 3-run HR instead of manufacturing runs via stolen bases and sacrifice flies/bunts.) Batters wore an obscene amount of batting protection, taking away their fear of the inside pitch. And allegedly, the baseballs were getting wound tighter and tighter.

5,042 HR's were hit in 2009. That's more HR's than in 2007 and 2005 (the first season of testing). It's also just 17 HR's fewer than in 2002, when there was no testing.

5,386 HR's were hit in 2006, which is the 5th-most in MLB history....only topped by the 1999-2001 seasons (the three seasons after expansion in Arizona and Tampa, as well as a slew of new ballparks) and 2004 (the first season of Philadelphia's new hitter-friendly park). There's only a 307 HR difference between 2006 (a steroid-tested season) and the 2000 season, the peak season of HR's hit.

It was the perfect storm for power numbers to rise. Steroid use wasn't a big factor in power numbers rising....and now that pitchers and teams have had time to adjust and build to their venues' strengths and weaknesses, it's having a greater affect of power numbers going down than steroids being taken out of the equation.

Sure, there were singular highs that were set, but the cumulative amount of HR's isn't that far off than what's taken place throughout MLB since 1900. There are periods where pitching has dominated hitting, and there are periods where hitting was dominating pitching.

[Eye]

Additionally,

[STL FANATIC]

Additionally,

That's it?

Jigga? Hedley? DG? Lee?

Someone wanna step up here and show him how it's done?

[pcgd]

I don't know how much I believe it, but the argument could be made that no two players (right or wrong) have more to do with the state of the game today than Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa and that combined with their boarderline hall of fame careers, they should be in the hall of fame.

Without them, is baseball just fighting to beat the MLS or NHL for popularity? Yes its been overtaken by football but that was going to happen strike or no strike. I don't know many people that are fans today that in some way can't say that the summer of 98 made the bigger fans of the game or brought them back completely.

I think both of them have stats that you could make an argument for or against, but combined with the summer of 98 even if its a fraud, they had a great impact on the game for the good. You could say its for the bad as well, but I don't. Both are a result of the system, they were far from the first users.

I'm halfway to convincing myself that I'd want them in for their playing careers and that season. Maybe just a feature of it with the bats, balls, and a note about the andro, steroids and HGH included about that season.

There are a few other post I want to comment on but I wanted to comment on this first in a separate post. McGwire and Sosa did not save baseball. Baseball never even need saving. Sure it took a bit of a hit after the strike but it lasted only a year or two and was healed by time. There is no empirical evidence that the 1998 baseball season "saved" baseball. In one of these threads awhile back I looked at the different metrics available (attendance, World Series & All-Star ratings) and saw there was no big spike in either after the 1998 season. If I remember correctly there was a bigger spike in either the 1996 or '97 season than in '98 or '99 season. Now Sosa and McGwire did have a big impact on media impressions but I don't think it translated into greater popularity for the game as a whole. Likewise it certainly drove attendance for that season in St. Louis and Chicago (A pennant race in Chicago also played a key role) and when those teams came into town but again I don't think it translated to the sport as whole.

I think where this idea of the home race race saving baseball comes from is that arguably more than any other sport Baseball tends to gets out in mythical terms. There is a romanticism that many of the big "purist" (Costas, George Will, ect, those types) that tend to blow up the proportion of any event. Thus the effects of the '94 strike get blown up and so does the home run race that supposedly saved baseball. As I said before it didn't save baseball because baseball didn't need saving. It's a myth.

And even if you want to argue that baseball needed saving one could argue that the resurgence of the Yankees had as much to do with it (I wouldn't buy that argument either).

Since you bring up the NHL I would be interested in looking at the bounce back that league has had since its lockout compared to baseball. However it is 1:30 here and I don't have time right now.

Understood, but perhaps attendance didn't change, maybe the ratings didn't go up. But I think there are more people that would honestly say that season affected them. Numbers be damned it had a huge affect on me as a teenager at the time. Maybe it was just the midwest...I wasn't living everywhere but I hear more people SAY that brought them back and I generally believe what people say. It brought me back. I always watched but I found the youthful joy I had as a little leaguer rooting for a major league team again in 1998...

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

Additionally,

That's it?

Jigga? Hedley? DG? Lee?

Someone wanna step up here and show him how it's done?

Ha -- that's actually pretty funny. Nice work.

By the way, I thought Cal Ripken saved baseball after the strike first.