2010 LeBron James Sweepstakes

[Lights Out]

I'd say Graduation and 808's helped create the current electronic/autotune sound of hip-hop. As an aside, I think Kanye described the sound of 808's as "Thom Yorke in the club" back when it came out, and it really does come across as the Kid A of mainstream hip-hop.

Regardless, 808's is one of those albums that never gets old for me. It's one of the few albums I truly like every song on, so it's awesome in my book.

[mania]

808's is more hip-hop's version of Pinkerton. Very personal and nowhere near as pop-friendly as their previous stuff, and eliciting a majorly mixed reaction.

[The_Admiral]

Pinkerton, a/k/a the blew album.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

I like LeBron more now. It might be that I'm simply being contrary, but there's a big part of me that loves seeing professional athletest-- by virtue of doing whatever they damn well please -- pissing off mostly white establishment figures. LeBron and Kanye are the closest analogues we have to 1960's Miles Davis and Muhammad Ali (and, of course, there are *clear* differences to the respective situations of all four these men). They're young, powerful, and highly skilled performers that, by virtue of their talent, kind of get to do whatever they want and don't particularly care what you think.

And really, so long as their actions are confined to sports and entertainment (and not to stuff that actually matters), I'm fine with it.

What is it with you and this fixation of disregarding opinions made by whites? Your act has gotten as stale as those of Tnak, Oddball, and Panhead1/Lights Out. (I'm still convinced they're the same damn person.)

You might have a point if it were just whites that didn't agree with how LeBron handled this. However, it's been just about everybody (outside of Miami, that is) voicing their displeasure about LeBron...specifically many of the best black players that ever played in the NBA. Many of LeBron's peers didn't agree with how this unfolded.

I use "white people" as shorthand for the dominant socio-economic culture. I think so many of our cultural mores are defined by not pissing off old conservative white guys, and, to me, it's funny when those mores are broken by people who don't really care. I'm fascinated by LeBron's career path; so much of the reaction to him (in my opinion) is based on projection from others on how he should and shouldn't act. That he says and does whatever he wants -- including signing on as a second fiddle in Miami -- is different and interesting. There's a set of expectations we have for our dominant athletes, and he doesn't follow any of them.

For what it's worth, I think your "I like Georgia sports and bragging about getting laid" act is stale too, but I manage not to insert that into my rare replies to your posts. As always, you're welcome to ignore me if I bother you so much.

[The_Admiral]

That he says and does whatever he wants -- including signing on as a second fiddle in Miami -- is different and interesting. There's a set of expectations we have for our dominant athletes, and he doesn't follow any of them.

But all highly-compensated athletes do pretty much whatever they want.

I don't know, man. I usually agree with a lot of what you say, but I think this is just pure contrarianism. It's the cognitive dissonance of his whole act. Cowering into #2 player status while acting like a #1 jackass is too counterintuitive and distasteful to embrace on any basis other than zagging while everybody else is zigging.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

That he says and does whatever he wants -- including signing on as a second fiddle in Miami -- is different and interesting. There's a set of expectations we have for our dominant athletes, and he doesn't follow any of them.

But all highly-compensated athletes do pretty much whatever they want.

I don't know, man. I usually agree with a lot of what you say, but I think this is just pure contrarianism. It's the cognitive dissonance of his whole act. Cowering into #2 player status while acting like a #1 jackass is too counterintuitive and distasteful to embrace on any basis other than zagging while everybody else is zigging.

I'll happily cop to that. It is likely that I'm just trying to justify my LeBron appreciation as something more philosophical than liking something others don't -- it wouldn't be the first time.

But, I don't know...LeBron's whole summer of 2010 seems so unlikely. We're in a different world than Ali, Davis, Abdul-Jabbar, and Jim Brown. While today's entertainers may make cameos in Obama videos, I don't get the sense that they actually really believe in anything anymore. Or at least believe in anything enough to hurt their image or public persona. Can you imagine a Lewcindor-level athlete converting to Islam in 2010? There's no way it would happen today.

Because those shocks to the system just aren't possible any more, I'll take whatever I can get. If that's LeBron James doing his best to become completely unlikeable in the mainstream sports press simply by choosing to play basketball with his friends (and being so over-the-top with his decision-making), then so be it. And to that end, if that really is his crime against professional sports and The Way Things Are Supposed To Be, why would you root for the nimrods who wanted a different story to cover?

(By the way, I'm pretty sure you can find posts from early in the summer where I called LeBron's decision boring and anti-climatic. I guess the LeBron hand-wringing has brought me 180 degrees around; the contrarian label is apt.

[infrared41]

I use "white people" as shorthand for the dominant socio-economic culture. I think so many of our cultural mores are defined by not pissing off old conservative white guys, and, to me, it's funny when those mores are broken by people who don't really care. I'm fascinated by LeBron's career path; so much of the reaction to him (in my opinion) is based on projection from others on how he should and shouldn't act. That he says and does whatever he wants -- including signing on as a second fiddle in Miami -- is different and interesting. There's a set of expectations we have for our dominant athletes, and he doesn't follow any of them.

For what it's worth, I think your "I like Georgia sports and bragging about getting laid" act is stale too, but I manage not to insert that into my rare replies to your posts. As always, you're welcome to ignore me if I bother you so much.

Not for nothing but that's more or less what I was trying to say when I said race played a role in the Lebron backlash. His actions were contrary to the way a mainstream black athlete is "supposed" to act. If a guy with Allen Iverson's or T.O.'s reputation had pulled the same stunt the outrage would have been practically non-existent by comparison.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Not for nothing but that's more or less what I was trying to say when I said race played a role in the Lebron backlash. His actions were contrary to the way a mainstream black athlete is "supposed" to act. If a guy with Allen Iverson's or T.O.'s reputation had pulled the same stunt the outrage would have been practically non-existent by comparison.

You should have used more racially inflammatory language, and I might have paid better attention

On the other topic, I listened to "Someday My Prince Will Come" and "In A Silent Way" the other day, and "Somethin' Else" (a Cannonball Adderly record, yes, but basically a Miles Davis showcase) today. Does anyone imagine we'll be listening to Kanye West in 40 years?

[infrared41]

Not for nothing but that's more or less what I was trying to say when I said race played a role in the Lebron backlash. His actions were contrary to the way a mainstream black athlete is "supposed" to act. If a guy with Allen Iverson's or T.O.'s reputation had pulled the same stunt the outrage would have been practically non-existent by comparison.

You should have used more racially inflammatory language, and I might have paid better attention

Nah, you just explained my point better than I did.

[The_Admiral]

If a guy with Allen Iverson's or T.O.'s reputation had pulled the same stunt the outrage would have been practically non-existent by comparison.

Well, it's hard to say with Terrell Owens the man himself, because his entire career has been fraught with all sorts of depressing/depressive alienation, and thus the likelihood of finding himself presented as this once-in-a-generation free agent acquisition is considerably low. If you're going with "a guy of his reputation" as some sort of abstract theoretical Owensesque stand-in, it's a little harder to tell, but I'd venture to say that no one football player at any position has the singular effect that a basketball player does.

In the case of Iverson, he was considered one of the best and most driven players in the league when he was at the top of his game, practice disapproval and general image problems notwithstanding. Nevertheless, if Iverson had been up for unrestricted free agency in his prime and shirked his unspoken responsibility to lead a team with all his heart so he could coast with his buddies, the barely restrained distaste for That Thug Iverson would've reached a fever pitch just as deafening as the one for LeBron. There, in the direct post-Jordan NBA, not only would he have let people down by looking dangerous to America, he also would've taken his foot off the gas and been without the readily apparent willpower that made him one of the league's superstars. Then what?

[infrared41]

If a guy with Allen Iverson's or T.O.'s reputation had pulled the same stunt the outrage would have been practically non-existent by comparison.

If you're going with "a guy of his reputation" as some sort of abstract theoretical Owensesque stand-in, it's a little harder to tell,

but I'd venture to say that no one football player at any position has the singular effect that a basketball player does.

A. Did you really need me to say "if a guy who was exactly like Lebron but had Iverson's or T.O.'s reputation..." You know what I meant. Anyway... Would anyone have said "I can't believe Iverson/T.O. pulled a stunt like that?" Nope. It would have been expected and that's the difference.

B. Gee, really?

[The_Admiral]

Would anyone have said "I can't believe Iverson/T.O. pulled a stunt like that?" Nope. It would have been expected and that's the difference.

Well, no; I'm postulating that Iverson doing so would've been unexpected and ill-received given that Iverson's claim to fame is singlehandedly dragging a dog-ass 76ers team to the Finals, and I don't believe I'm completely wrong in thinking this way. Furthermore,

His actions were contrary to the way a mainstream black athlete is "supposed" to act.

I'd argue that most of America thinks mainstream black athletes are supposed to be self-centered ostentatious pricks who do silly dances, and in this scenario I'm not sure how LeBron's summer has been contrary to much of anything there.

[infrared41]

Would anyone have said "I can't believe Iverson/T.O. pulled a stunt like that?" Nope. It would have been expected and that's the difference.

Well, no; I'm postulating that Iverson doing so would've been unexpected and ill-received given that Iverson's claim to fame is singlehandedly dragging a dog-ass 76ers team to the Finals, and I don't believe I'm completely wrong in thinking this way. Furthermore,

His actions were contrary to the way a mainstream black athlete is "supposed" to act.

I'd argue that most of America thinks mainstream black athletes are supposed to be self-centered ostentatious pricks who do silly dances, and in this scenario I'm not sure how LeBron's summer has been contrary to much of anything there.

Wow. You're veering into Will Morris territory.

A.) Iverson's "claim to fame" isn't "dragging a dog-ass 76ers team to the finals."

B.) You write that and yet you still claim race wasn't a factor in the Lebron backlash?

[mania]

On the other topic, I listened to "Someday My Prince Will Come" and "In A Silent Way" the other day, and "Somethin' Else" (a Cannonball Adderly record, yes, but basically a Miles Davis showcase) today. Does anyone imagine we'll be listening to Kanye West in 40 years?

Sure. I think if you look at the modern pop music scene, he's almost assuredly the most likely artist to maintain a following, especially when you take into account his production work.

[IceCap]

I use "white people" as shorthand for the dominant socio-economic culture. I think so many of our cultural mores are defined by not pissing off old conservative white guys, and, to me, it's funny when those mores are broken by people who don't really care. I'm fascinated by LeBron's career path; so much of the reaction to him (in my opinion) is based on projection from others on how he should and shouldn't act. That he says and does whatever he wants -- including signing on as a second fiddle in Miami -- is different and interesting. There's a set of expectations we have for our dominant athletes, and he doesn't follow any of them.

For what it's worth, I think your "I like Georgia sports and bragging about getting laid" act is stale too, but I manage not to insert that into my rare replies to your posts. As always, you're welcome to ignore me if I bother you so much.

Not for nothing but that's more or less what I was trying to say when I said race played a role in the Lebron backlash. His actions were contrary to the way a mainstream black athlete is "supposed" to act.

I don't buy that precisely because I'm not sure how the stereotypical black athlete is supposed to act. The expectations placed on LeBron were not based on his race, it was placed on his role as one of the most dominant/talented/entertaining players of his sport. Athletes like that exist in every sport and are many different races. People like that, dominant athletes not black athletes, are supposed to lead their teams, inspire others around them to play better, and build a championship contender. Again, this expectation is placed on other athletes who aren't basketball players and who aren't black. Payton Manning and Sidney Crosby if you want two white examples.

Thus when LeBron went to Miami to play with Wade and Bosh he didn't act contrary to the way mainstream black athletes are suppose to act, he acted contrary to the way mainstream superstar athletes are suppose to act. If Crosby, Ovie, Kane, and Miller decided to all play for one team in the NHL the reaction would be roughly equal to what we saw directed towards LeBron this past summer (or it would be if anyone gave a about the NHL south of the border, but this is a hypothetical). So I'm sorry, I generally do agree with what you and DG usually have to say, but I think you're both looking for a racial issue here that just doesn't exit. If it's for the sake of contrarianism that's fine. Doesn't mean the media's out to get black athletes, however.

For the record I still find myself liking the guy and Cleveland can still get over it. He's a hell of a basketball player, and I look forward to seeing what he and the Heat can do. I just wince every time a millionaire superstar athlete plays the race card when it's not warranted. It seems to diminish what should be the very real impact of such accusations.

Wow. You're veering into Will Morris territory.

And you're verring into illwauk territory.

[infrared41]

I don't buy that precisely because I'm not sure how the stereotypical black athlete is supposed to act. The expectations placed on LeBron were not based on his race, it was placed on his role as one of the most dominant/talented/entertaining players of his sport. Athletes like that exist in every sport and are many different races. People like that, dominant athletes not black athletes, are supposed to lead their teams, inspire others around them to play better, and build a championship contender. Again, this expectation is placed on other athletes who aren't basketball players and who aren't black. Payton Manning and Sidney Crosby if you want two white examples.

Thus when LeBron went to Miami to play with Wade and Bosh he didn't act contrary to the way mainstream black athletes are suppose to act, he acted contrary to the way mainstream superstar athletes are suppose to act. If Crosby, Ovie, Kane, and Miller decided to all play for one team in the NHL the reaction would be roughly equal to what we saw directed towards LeBron this past summer (or it would be if anyone gave a about the NHL south of the border, but this is a hypothetical). So I'm sorry, I generally do agree with what you and DG usually have to say, but I think you're both looking for a racial issue here that just doesn't exit. If it's for the sake of contrarianism that's fine. Doesn't mean the media's out to get black athletes, however.

For the record I still find myself liking the guy and Cleveland can still get over it. He's a hell of a basketball player, and I look forward to seeing what he and the Heat can do. I just wince every time a millionaire superstar athlete plays the race card when it's not warranted. It seems to diminish what should be the very real impact of such accusations.

Wow. You're veering into Will Morris territory.

And you're verring into illwauk territory.

For the second time, all I said was race played a small role in the backlash. Not a prominent role. A small role. I'll say it again, let's stop acting like I said "if Lebron were white, none of this would have happened." D_G summed up what I meant when he said "I think so many of our cultural mores are defined by not pissing off old conservative white guys." Lebron did some things that pissed off old conservative white guys because he didn't act like "mainstream" black athletes are "supposed" to act. As I said to Captain Admiral, all I meant was that if T.O. or Chad Eight Five had done this the backlash wouldn't have been as bad because such behavior is "expected" from them.

I didn't want to go here to explain my point but I guess I have to... Simply stated, conservative old white guys like players like Lebron because they don't "act like T.O. or Eight Five." Suddenly Lebron wasn't acting "mainstream" so the white folks got a little more upset with him than they would have with a less "mainstream" player. And that's what I meant when I said race played a small role in the backlash. The majority of the Lebron backlash was warranted but , like it or not, there was a small racial factor involved as well.

Statements like "I'd argue that most of America thinks mainstream black athletes are supposed to be self-centered ostentatious pricks who do silly dances, and in this scenario I'm not sure how LeBron's summer has been contrary to much of anything there" are exactly what I'm talking about.

EDIT: and I don't get the illiwauk reference. Can you explain it?

[IceCap]

I don't buy that precisely because I'm not sure how the stereotypical black athlete is supposed to act. The expectations placed on LeBron were not based on his race, it was placed on his role as one of the most dominant/talented/entertaining players of his sport. Athletes like that exist in every sport and are many different races. People like that, dominant athletes not black athletes, are supposed to lead their teams, inspire others around them to play better, and build a championship contender. Again, this expectation is placed on other athletes who aren't basketball players and who aren't black. Payton Manning and Sidney Crosby if you want two white examples.

Thus when LeBron went to Miami to play with Wade and Bosh he didn't act contrary to the way mainstream black athletes are suppose to act, he acted contrary to the way mainstream superstar athletes are suppose to act. If Crosby, Ovie, Kane, and Miller decided to all play for one team in the NHL the reaction would be roughly equal to what we saw directed towards LeBron this past summer (or it would be if anyone gave a about the NHL south of the border, but this is a hypothetical). So I'm sorry, I generally do agree with what you and DG usually have to say, but I think you're both looking for a racial issue here that just doesn't exit. If it's for the sake of contrarianism that's fine. Doesn't mean the media's out to get black athletes, however.

For the record I still find myself liking the guy and Cleveland can still get over it. He's a hell of a basketball player, and I look forward to seeing what he and the Heat can do. I just wince every time a millionaire superstar athlete plays the race card when it's not warranted. It seems to diminish what should be the very real impact of such accusations.

Wow. You're veering into Will Morris territory.

And you're verring into illwauk territory.

For the second time, all I said was race played a small role in the backlash. Not a prominent role. A small role. I'll say it again, let's stop acting like I said "if Lebron were white, none of this would have happened." D_G summed up what I meant when he said "I think so many of our cultural mores are defined by not pissing off old conservative white guys." Lebron did some things that pissed off old conservative white guys because he didn't act like "mainstream" black athletes are "supposed" to act. As I said to Captain Admiral, all I meant was that if T.O. or Chad Eight Five had done this the backlash wouldn't have been as bad because such behavior is "expected" from them.

I didn't want to go here to explain my point but I guess I have to... Simply stated, conservative old white guys like players like Lebron because they don't "act like T.O. or Eight Five." Suddenly Lebron wasn't acting "mainstream" so the white folks got a little more upset with him than they would have with a less "mainstream" player. And that's what I meant when I said race played a small role in the backlash. The majority of the Lebron backlash was warranted but , like it or not, there was a small racial factor involved as well.

Here's my question though. Did LeBron act contrary to the way a mainstream black athlete was suppose to act, or did he act contrary to the way a mainstream superstar athlete of any race was suppose to act? Are the conservative white guys pissed because he's a black athlete acting out of place or because he's acting unbecoming of a player of caliber? It's an important distinction.

Statements like "I'd argue that most of America thinks mainstream black athletes are supposed to be self-centered ostentatious pricks who do silly dances, and in this scenario I'm not sure how LeBron's summer has been contrary to much of anything there" are exactly what I'm talking about.

I'm just going to come out with it, I think you guys place way to much emphasis on race. I don't see black athletes as being self-centred pricks. I see most superstar athletes as self-centred pricks, even the white guys. The race factor doesn't even register with me. Maybe that's my problem. I donno. I just don't see the backlash against LeBron as being racially motivated. I see it as people being dissapointed in a very talented superstar athlete taking the easy way out, not because he's a black man acting out of place. Again, I think if a group of white superstars did the same thing as James, Bosh, and Wade did you would see the same type of reaction.

I'm willing to admit I'm in the wrong here, but race just doesn't register for me when it comes to these sort of situations.

EDIT: and I don't get the illiwauk reference. Can you explain it?

The innate ability to see racial undertones in every aspect of Euro-centric society

[infrared41]

I don't buy that precisely because I'm not sure how the stereotypical black athlete is supposed to act. The expectations placed on LeBron were not based on his race, it was placed on his role as one of the most dominant/talented/entertaining players of his sport. Athletes like that exist in every sport and are many different races. People like that, dominant athletes not black athletes, are supposed to lead their teams, inspire others around them to play better, and build a championship contender. Again, this expectation is placed on other athletes who aren't basketball players and who aren't black. Payton Manning and Sidney Crosby if you want two white examples.

Thus when LeBron went to Miami to play with Wade and Bosh he didn't act contrary to the way mainstream black athletes are suppose to act, he acted contrary to the way mainstream superstar athletes are suppose to act. If Crosby, Ovie, Kane, and Miller decided to all play for one team in the NHL the reaction would be roughly equal to what we saw directed towards LeBron this past summer (or it would be if anyone gave a about the NHL south of the border, but this is a hypothetical). So I'm sorry, I generally do agree with what you and DG usually have to say, but I think you're both looking for a racial issue here that just doesn't exit. If it's for the sake of contrarianism that's fine. Doesn't mean the media's out to get black athletes, however.

For the record I still find myself liking the guy and Cleveland can still get over it. He's a hell of a basketball player, and I look forward to seeing what he and the Heat can do. I just wince every time a millionaire superstar athlete plays the race card when it's not warranted. It seems to diminish what should be the very real impact of such accusations.

Wow. You're veering into Will Morris territory.

And you're verring into illwauk territory.

For the second time, all I said was race played a small role in the backlash. Not a prominent role. A small role. I'll say it again, let's stop acting like I said "if Lebron were white, none of this would have happened." D_G summed up what I meant when he said "I think so many of our cultural mores are defined by not pissing off old conservative white guys." Lebron did some things that pissed off old conservative white guys because he didn't act like "mainstream" black athletes are "supposed" to act. As I said to Captain Admiral, all I meant was that if T.O. or Chad Eight Five had done this the backlash wouldn't have been as bad because such behavior is "expected" from them.

I didn't want to go here to explain my point but I guess I have to... Simply stated, conservative old white guys like players like Lebron because they don't "act like T.O. or Eight Five." Suddenly Lebron wasn't acting "mainstream" so the white folks got a little more upset with him than they would have with a less "mainstream" player. And that's what I meant when I said race played a small role in the backlash. The majority of the Lebron backlash was warranted but , like it or not, there was a small racial factor involved as well.

Here's my question though. Did LeBron act contrary to the way a mainstream black athlete was suppose to act, or did he act contrary to the way a mainstream superstar athlete of any race was suppose to act? Are the conservative white guys pissed because he's a black athlete acting out of place or because he's acting unbecoming of a player of caliber? It's an important distinction.

Statements like "I'd argue that most of America thinks mainstream black athletes are supposed to be self-centered ostentatious pricks who do silly dances, and in this scenario I'm not sure how LeBron's summer has been contrary to much of anything there" are exactly what I'm talking about.

I'm just going to come out with it, I think you guys place way to much emphasis on race. I don't see black athletes as being self-centred pricks. I see most superstar athletes as self-centred pricks, even the white guys. The race factor doesn't even register with me. Maybe that's my problem. I donno. I just don't see the backlash against LeBron as being racially motivated. I see it as people being dissapointed in a very talented superstar athlete taking the easy way out, not because he's a black man acting out of place. Again, I think if a group of white superstars did the same thing as James, Bosh, and Wade did you would see the same type of reaction.

I'm willing to admit I'm in the wrong here, but race just doesn't register for me when it comes to these sort of situations.

EDIT: and I don't get the illiwauk reference. Can you explain it?

The innate ability to see racial undertones in every aspect of Euro-centric society

Show me where I said it was. For the last time, all I said was race played a SMALL part in this. It was not the main reason for the backlash. How much clearer can I make this? If the reasons for Lebron backlash were numbered race would be like number 38 out of 50. You're making my statements out to be way more than they were.

[tBBP]

EDIT: disregard.

[IceCap]

I'm just going to come out with it, I think you guys place way to much emphasis on race. I don't see black athletes as being self-centred pricks. I see most superstar athletes as self-centred pricks, even the white guys. The race factor doesn't even register with me. Maybe that's my problem. I donno. I just don't see the backlash against LeBron as being racially motivated. I see it as people being dissapointed in a very talented superstar athlete taking the easy way out, not because he's a black man acting out of place. Again, I think if a group of white superstars did the same thing as James, Bosh, and Wade did you would see the same type of reaction.

I'm willing to admit I'm in the wrong here, but race just doesn't register for me when it comes to these sort of situations.

Show me where I said it was. For the last time, all I said was race played a SMALL part in this. It was not the main reason for the backlash. How much clearer can I make this? If the reasons for Lebron backlash were numbered race would be like number 38 out of 50. You're making my statements out to be way more than they were.

If race played that small a role behind so many other factors, was it really a factor at all? Just something to think about.

I really don't think race played even that small of a role, honestly. When I heard the talking heads bash him my thought was 1) they're Cleveland homers or 2) they're disappointed that he took the easy path to a ring. Not once did I think race was a factor, even in the slightest. I mean when Charles Barkley, who's pretty keen at pointing out racial injustices in the sports-media landscape, calls LeBron James out on his decision to play in Miami I have to think there's nothing racial in the coverage of the whole situation.

Again maybe I'm just very naive, but I don't see race being a factor in this, big or small. Agree to disagree I suppose.