What the F

[jeh-see]

Okay, as I am typing this the Pirates are losing to the minor-leaguesqe Houston Astros by a score of 5-1 (top of the 7th). I am dumbfounded, again, how the wheels continuously fall off the wagon for the Pirates. Every season is a different excuse. Crap ownership. Crap fan support. Top prospects are this close to being able to come up so just be patient one more season (going on 19 seasons now). Starting pitching isn't good enough. Bullpen help doesn't hold leads. Not enough power in the lineup. It's old!!!!! And this season and last season (to a lesser degree) are enough to make a fan not believe in a good thing anymore til it actually happens. This team was blazing hot in June and July and, naturally, a decline is expected. But to completely fall off the playoff map so close to the end is heartbreaking. How does team do so so good for a reasonable stretch and do just as bad with pretty much the same lineup? I guess it is the parity of baseball, but as a Pirate fan, when is enough enough already. I would be okay with losing series here and there to good, playoff viable teams, but to get swept by the Padres, the Brewers (and dropping two of three agains the Brew Crew in another recent series) and now trailing by four runs to, as I stated, basically a minor league team, the Astros who started a AAA pitcher today? Come on! I dunno. Trying to figure it out makes my brain hurt.

[GriffinM6]

I feel your pain as a Pirates fan too. My deal is this. I will be very happy if they win 82 or more games. Playoffs will be a bonus if they can make a strong run. Look on the brightside man, we'll probably go over .500 for the first time in 20 years.

[BBTV]

It sounds weird, but there really is such a thing as "knowing how to win". There's just a certain "swagger" (I hate that word but can't think of a better one) that good teams have. Right now they're having fun, they have the whole Zoltan thing going on, but they're just not ready for prime time. The good thing is that seasons like this really can be learning lessons to a team, and with an addition or two (for which they'll have to over pay for and I'm not sure if they're willing to even underpay let alone overpay) you could very well see that being good but not "playoff good" this season could actually be a good thing, and they'll come out next year a little more seriously and with an expectation of winning a division or at least a WC. Not that it will happen, but it very well could.

[NJTank]

Want to talk about Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

Andres Torres hits a leadoff double for the Mets in the ninth gets called out because he forgot to touch first

[maz]

Everyone including myself got caught up in the playoff hunt once they were still in it after the All-Star Break. But the harsh reality is, even in this year's MLB, it was never going to happen. At this rate, I'm starting to worry about even hitting .500. That's the real goal. Always was. But on the good side, they have proven last year was not a fluke. They had fun, drew record crowds, won all kinds of games, did some big things, made some noise. They led the league in a lot of categories for a while. For a while there, they looked like a team that hasn't had a losing season in 20 years. Most of all, they got a city and a generation full of cynics and pessimists to believe in them again, and to want to and enjoy coming to the ballpark. I've been to countless Pirates games in my life, and this year had the best, most energetic crowds I've ever been a part of at a ballgame. That's more than we could have hoped for. The only thing left now is to hope next year they can take another step forward, and not backward. Maybe now that they've sniffed the playoffs, the ownership will finally spend what it takes to get them into the playoffs.

Either way, the past two seasons are the best thing to happen to baseball in this city since before I was even born, and it's still been special. Yeah, it sucks that they're struggling again, but they're a young team trying to turn it around in a sport that has very little days off. Like BBtV said, at this rate, they very well can make it next year. They have all the right pieces and are on the right track. But hey, even if they have the exact same record next season as they do now, I'll be happy, because we finally have a competitive baseball team that's fun to watch. That's something my generation of Pittsburghers has never had.

I bet you, out of all their wins this year, about half of those games would have the potential of being a top-five game in any season between '92 and '11.

[CubsFanBudMan]

I think your overall point is valid, but the MLB-worst Astros even beat the MLB-best Reds just a few days ago. Don't worry about winning every game. Worry about winning series. The Pirates seem to be doing everything right, but they have been a bit snake-bitten on their deadline deals the past two years.

[jeh-see]

I think your overall point is valid, but the MLB-worst Astros even beat the MLB-best Reds just a few days ago. Don't worry about winning every game. Worry about winning series. The Pirates seem to be doing everything right, but they have been a bit snake-bitten on their deadline deals the past two years.

I agree with the trade deadline deals this season, especially. I've never every liked Wandy Rodriquez and I think that any comparable pitcher wouldve been a better pickup. Here in Pittsburgh most of the radio shows have multiple fans calling in complaining about him being "home sick" since he has only played for the Astros. I have just never been impressed with his ability at all, even when he was an Astro. And, while I was a bit miffed about trading away Brad Lincoln at the time of the trade, he has since pretty much fallen on his face while Travis Snider has been a good producer for the Bucs. The Qualls for McGehee trade is the one that got me fired up. McGehee was a producer, night in:night out, for the Pirates and Qualls has been crap since he was picked up and he definitely couldn't replace the hole trading Lincoln left in the 'pen. Another thing that I scratch my head about is, while I love Clint Hurdle, he is too laid back, I think. I mean there has been several times during the past couple weeks when the Pirates have been getting thrashed and they will cut to him in the dugout laughing and cutting up???? Sure, his management style is more encouraging and teaching through mistakes rather than beating them over his players' heads, but damn, when is the time to throw a chair or call out someone (like he did Jose Tabata earlier this season and sent him to the minors for a month or two). Be a spark plug, show some sort of emotion, something. Now that being said, I don't want him to convert to the second coming of Lloyd McClendon either. And while I am thinking about it, am I the only one that thinks expanding the rosters to bloated proportions really hurts more than it helps? Now players are all fighting for playing time at a point in the season when a consistant lineup should be put on the field....just curious.

[BBTV]

The more I think about this, they could go the route of the Rays, or they could add a big FA. They have talent, but not as much as the Rays, and they're just not run as well. I really think they need to go out and overpay for a big FA, to show their current players that they're committed, and to show other players (potential future FAs, players that they might want to acquire and sign to extensions) that Pittsburgh is now a serious player and a "cool" place to sign. Even if the player doesn't work out, it sends a great message and can change the mood dramatically. I look at it like the Phillies overpayed for Jim Thome. That move didn't work out, but it really did pave the way for success (it helped that they had a great young players just hitting their prime, but still, they instantly became a player in the FA game) Now they have a lot more money to work with, but at the time, due to stadium issues and management issues, they weren't in much better shape than the Pirates are in now. It's a risk, but it might be just what the team needs.

[Sport]

The Pirates sorta did that already when they resigned McCutcheon to that extension this off-season. They're starting to spend some money and I don't think players around the league think of Pittsburgh as the same career killing hole that it was even 3 years ago. They only have to go 12-16 to finish with a winning season and I think that's totally doable.

I think their problem now is that they were playing above their heads and that is physically and mentally exhausting and this is the time of year when that'll catch up to a young team just "learning how to win".

Really they need to stop getting involved in 19 inning games. A 19 inning game has been the turning point towards the downfall of their season the last two years.

And who knows, they're still not that far out of the wildcard game.

@uniformjipetto, Clint Hurdle looked pretty emotional and fired up in all three games in Cincinnati. He got tossed in the second game and I'm really surprised he didn't get tossed again in the third game.

[Lights Out]

The bad news: the Pirates are simply regressing to the mean (though injuries haven't helped either). In late July, they were outperforming their third-order record by 4.7 wins, which was the most of any NL team. Hell, going into the year, PECOTA had them winning only 71 games total. The roll that the Bucs were on, while fun to watch, was completely unsustainable, and they were wildly overachieving.

The good news: the fact that the Pirates were overachieving that much for that long shows that they're almost ready to break through. I know you Pirates fans have probably heard "just wait 'til next year" a million times, but next year really is the year for this team. And there's even still time to sneak back into the wildcard this year.

[TheOldRoman]

Another thing that I scratch my head about is, while I love Clint Hurdle, he is too laid back, I think. I mean there has been several times during the past couple weeks when the Pirates have been getting thrashed and they will cut to him in the dugout laughing and cutting up???? Sure, his management style is more encouraging and teaching through mistakes rather than beating them over his players' heads, but damn, when is the time to throw a chair or call out someone (like he did Jose Tabata earlier this season and sent him to the minors for a month or two). Be a spark plug, show some sort of emotion, something. Now that being said, I don't want him to convert to the second coming of Lloyd McClendon either.

I don't think that there is a perfect manager or one true way to reach the team. Different approaches work. As a White Sox fan, I've seen it all. The last decade started out with Jerry Manuel winning a division title. He was a poor coach who was so timid and never stood up for his players or gave anybody the boot-to-ass they needed. That got him fired. The Sox wanted a firey personality, so they hired Ozzie Guillen. He ended up winning two divisions and a World Championship, while leading teams that grossly underachieved several times. All of last season he was mailing it in and counting the days until he got to go to the baseball paradise that is Miami (oops!), but before that, he had a number of silly blow-ups. He was horribly inconsistent, as he would sometimes destroy younger players in the press while defending slumping vets and trotting out guys hitting .170 in the three hole each game. He would call guys out and say he wouldn't tolerate bad defense and poor baserunning, but still play them everyday and do nothing about it.

After Ozzie was gone, the Sox wanted a manager who wouldn't bring that drama, so they hired Robin Ventura. He has done a very good job to this point, but I think that whenever he eventually leaves, people will cite how unemotional he was and how they want a "passionate" manager who will "light a fire" under the players. Teams and fans are always going to want a coach who is the opposite of the previous one. I think Joe Torre was a very good manager, but he got crap in his last 5-8 years about being too timid, also. There is no correct way. That being said, sometimes teams need one particular type of coach. The White Sox needed a coach with Ventura's temperment. Maybe the Pirates need one who will whip some ass and get the younger players to give more.

[OnWis97]

It sounds weird, but there really is such a thing as "knowing how to win". There's just a certain "swagger" (I hate that word but can't think of a better one) that good teams have. Right now they're having fun, they have the whole Zoltan thing going on, but they're just not ready for prime time. The good thing is that seasons like this really can be learning lessons to a team, and with an addition or two (for which they'll have to over pay for and I'm not sure if they're willing to even underpay let alone overpay) you could very well see that being good but not "playoff good" this season could actually be a good thing, and they'll come out next year a little more seriously and with an expectation of winning a division or at least a WC. Not that it will happen, but it very well could.

This may be the best explanation. The 2001 Twins, after the brutal post-strike years were paced to 100 at the break. From there they plummeted to the middle of the pack (just looked, they won 85, so not as bad as I thought). In 2002, they made their first of six postseasons in 9 years. I think the Brewers had a similar experience before their first trip back since 1982. Team that have not experienced winning tend not to keep it up all year. If their great start/middle was not a fluke, don't be surprised to see them win 90 next year.

[maz]

I think a lot of his wariness (which I also share) just comes from years of nothing but huge letdowns from this team. In a way, it's a learning process for us as well to be optimistic. I will say, though, I believe in this team at least 100% more than I did three years ago, and you guys make good points about their potential.

We just gotta learn to be patient enough to let it come. Not every franchise is going to turn it around in just one offseason like the penguins did.

[infrared41]

The bad news: the Pirates are simply regressing to the mean (though injuries haven't helped either). In late July, they were outperforming their third-order record by 4.7 wins, which was the most of any NL team. Hell, going into the year, PECOTA had them winning only 71 games total. The roll that the Bucs were on, while fun to watch, was completely unsustainable, and they were wildly overachieving.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. As much fun as they've been to watch this season, you kinda knew it was a bit of an illusion. A winning season is still a very realistic goal and smart baseball fans will see it as the improvement it is. Sure, if (when) the Pirates miss the playoffs, some fans will pull the "same ol' Pirates" bit, but this team has shown marked improvement over the past two seasons. There is a light at the end of the tunnel; and it's not a train this time. Hell, their Root Sports network broadcasts even have some commercials this season.