USFL

[NCCoachArete]

Not sure if this is the appropriate forum, but thought it might be.

Hypothetically speaking, which USFL teams could have survived and how would the league have evolved? Of the list below, I think Baltimore, Jacksonville, Memphis, Tampa Bay, Houston and San Antonio would have had the best chance to survive. As I recall, there were no NFL teams in Memphis, Baltimore, Jacksonville, Houston and SAntonio at that time, and the Tampa fan based wasn't nearly as strong as it is today. SAntonio could have merged with Houston to strengthen their ownership team as some point. Birmingham would be a bit of a wildcard...would the USFL eventually move them to a larger market? The USFL teams are below. If the USFL would have survived, and won more than a #4 in their anti-trust suit, what would the USFL look like today (markets/teams) and would the NFL be as powerful today?

Philadelphia / Baltimore Stars

Boston /New Orleans/ Portland Breakers

NJ Generals

Washington Federals

Michigan Panthers

Chicago Bitz

Tampa Bay Bandits

Birmingham Stallions

Oakland Invaders

LA Express

Denver Gold

Arizona Wranglers

Pittsburgh Maulers

Memphis Showboats

Houston Gamblers

San Antonio Gunslingers

Oklahoma / Arizona Outlaws

Orlando Renegades

Arizona Wranglers

Jacksonville Bulls

[LAWeaver]

I think that if the USFL lasted a little longer, it would've been a matter of time before they merged with the NFL. Had that happened, we may not have had the Ravens, Jaguars, or Texans (stars, bulls, and gamblers may have stayed put), and we may have had a ~40 team league

[smith03]

San Antonio's team was revoke by the USFL at the end of 85 that is why they were not going to be in 86 fall. you should start with the 8 teams that would have play in the fall of 86 and go from there
Arizona, Baltimore, Birmingham, Jacksonville, Memphis, New Jersey, Orlando, Tampa Bay.

[smith03]

when the league announced it was moving to the fall that ended teams such as Houston Gamblers because the Oilers where still in Houston, Michigan because of the Lions, The Breakers moved again out of New Orleans. Washington was going moved regardless of spring or fall schedule it was just a question of where (Miami or Orlando)

[smith03]

for fun had the league not decided after the 84 season to move to the fall in 86 this might be how the 85 season would have look like 16 teams. Chicago would have still folded and Oklahoma and Arizona would have still merge, but I think Michigan would have remained and New Orleans and Philadelphia would not have moved. Washington moves to Miami instead of Orlando and Pittsburgh plays the 85 season, and the championship game would still have been played at the silverdome.what might have happen after that would be a total guess.

[wdm1219inpenna]

I was actually a fan of the USFL, and enjoyed the XFL too. The advent of spring pro-football was great back in the early to mid 1980s. I'd rather see Goodell try to want to create a new USFL style league for the springtime. I can't get into Arena Football. Have an NFL Spring League so coaches could evaluate potential future NFL talent. By doing this, they could perhaps eliminate the dreaded 4 game pre-season, and scale pre-season back to just 2 matches instead. This would be the only way I'd possibly embrace an 18 game NFL regular season.

I believe that the USFL made a huge mistake in wanting to play in the fall starting in 1986. Spring football was great.

[dfwabel]

First, let us not forget (or realize for the first time), that the USFL lost $180M in the three years which they did play. In today's dollars, that is like losing $385M in today's dollars.

While the Bandits were drawing more than the Buccaneers of the same time, the future of the Bandits would have still been an issue. They had 30,000 season ticket accounts and were the most profitable, but there is a big BUT in the conversation:

In the spring of 1985, original Bandits owner John Bassett opted out of playing in the Fall of 1986, and subsequently sold the team to local investors before he died in May of 1986. The 15 owners voted 13-2 to play in the fall. LA did not have a vote as the league was in control of the team. Bassett (Tampa Bay) and Doug Spedding (Denver) voted against. Those two were interested in creating a "third pro league" which would have still played in the spring.

What the new owners would have done we will never know, but the record does show that the new ownership group did not have any money. And even thought Bandits merchandise was by far the most sold (close to 55% of all merchandise in year one), the team did not have a future because they ran out of credit.

Search "Bret Clark + Bandits lawsuit" for details.

Bassett was essentially the best owner the league had and was using his experience as a WFL owner to avoid the prior pitfalls, but he died.

Then for most every other team who was also in a city with a NFL team, the NFL team would have tried to leverage cities into new leases in new stadiums which would have prohibited another professional football team to play in that that facility.

[mkg74]

I can't get into Arena Football. Have an NFL Spring League so coaches could evaluate potential future NFL talent.

The early days of Arena-ball were kind of fun. it was obviously created to fill the void the USFL left behind. It worked pretty well the first 10 or so years. Nowdays, not so much. When you have to name a team the LA KISS geez what a joke.

The WLAF already tried the NFL spring developmental league thing. Didn't work out so well. I was less intrested in that then i was Arena ball. No big name talent, The USFL was pretty well star-studded and it STILL didn't work out as far as getting the television ratings and fan attendance necessary to survive. They would've needed around 8.0 ratings/40,000 per game. They fell a bit short unfortunately

Spring ball sadly will never work out these days, the NFL is just way to big a juggernaut.

Nobody will want to see a bunch of nobodies playing spring ball, you have to go for the jugular like the USFL tried to do, and stay in the spring. is anyone brave enough to start such a league, would be the big question.

[Mac the Knife]

San Antonio's team was revoke by the USFL at the end of 85 that is why they were not going to be in 86 fall. you should start with the 8 teams that would have play in the fall of 86 and go from there

Arizona, Baltimore, Birmingham, Jacksonville, Memphis, New Jersey, Orlando, Tampa Bay.

The death knell for the USFL came on my 15th birthday - 11 October, 1984, the day they announced their intent to move to the fall in 1986. Of the eight franchises which were scheduled to play that Fall 1986 season, three (Arizona, Birmingham, and Tampa Bay) likely would have folded mid-season... that's how shaky things were with their respective new ownership groups. Orlando would've likely been a question mark as well.

Had they played it, the 1986 USFL season would've been an unmitigated disaster both on the field and off. The level of play would have been far lower than that of the league's three spring seasons, and thanks to several factors (e.g., going head-to-head in New York and Orlando/Tampa, no network or cable television revenues), the estimated $160 million in losses over the first three years would've been matched by 1986 alone.

As you can probably surmise by reviewing my site, USFL.info (blatant plug... sorry), the league would have best been served had it maintained a spring schedule. Had it held out with minimal further franchise turnover until 1989 or 1990, it's likely that television and other revenues would've stemmed the financial bleeding and allowed the league to survive.

[FiddySicks]

Just further proof of how stupid Donald Trump was/is.

[smith03]

San Antonio's team was revoke by the USFL at the end of 85 that is why they were not going to be in 86 fall. you should start with the 8 teams that would have play in the fall of 86 and go from there

Arizona, Baltimore, Birmingham, Jacksonville, Memphis, New Jersey, Orlando, Tampa Bay.

The death knell for the USFL came on my 15th birthday - 11 October, 1984, the day they announced their intent to move to the fall in 1986. Of the eight franchises which were scheduled to play that Fall 1986 season, three (Arizona, Birmingham, and Tampa Bay) likely would have folded mid-season... that's how shaky things were with their respective new ownership groups. Orlando would've likely been a question mark as well.

Had they played it, the 1986 USFL season would've been an unmitigated disaster both on the field and off. The level of play would have been far lower than that of the league's three spring seasons, and thanks to several factors (e.g., going head-to-head in New York and Orlando/Tampa, no network or cable television revenues), the estimated $160 million in losses over the first three years would've been matched by 1986 alone.

As you can probably surmise by reviewing my site, USFL.info (blatant plug... sorry), the league would have best been served had it maintained a spring schedule. Had it held out with minimal further franchise turnover until 1989 or 1990, it's likely that television and other revenues would've stemmed the financial bleeding and allowed the league to survive.

hey that is great site you have any plans to add more information to it? wondering if you had info about plan 1986 season: drafts, schedule etc

[Mac the Knife]

Just further proof of how stupid Donald Trump was/is.

Honestly, as much as people would like to blame Trump for the USFL's demise, the reality of it makes him far less culpable. While sure, he advocated, then cajoled, in favor of a move to the fall, he wasn't the only one doing so - and ultimately, there were 18 clubs voting. Had any one of them voted against it, it would've died, and ultimately when the final vote was taken even the most staunch supporters of spring football (Birmingham, Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh) either abstained or voted in favor. These teams were owned by multi-millionaire businessmen who didn't make their fortunes listening to Donald Trump... and they surely weren't going to risk millions just because of his antics. They were losing money and took a long-shot, thinking there might be a payoff with some luck. They were wrong.

San Antonio's team was revoke by the USFL at the end of 85 that is why they were not going to be in 86 fall. you should start with the 8 teams that would have play in the fall of 86 and go from there

Arizona, Baltimore, Birmingham, Jacksonville, Memphis, New Jersey, Orlando, Tampa Bay.

The death knell for the USFL came on my 15th birthday - 11 October, 1984, the day they announced their intent to move to the fall in 1986. Of the eight franchises which were scheduled to play that Fall 1986 season, three (Arizona, Birmingham, and Tampa Bay) likely would have folded mid-season... that's how shaky things were with their respective new ownership groups. Orlando would've likely been a question mark as well.

Had they played it, the 1986 USFL season would've been an unmitigated disaster both on the field and off. The level of play would have been far lower than that of the league's three spring seasons, and thanks to several factors (e.g., going head-to-head in New York and Orlando/Tampa, no network or cable television revenues), the estimated $160 million in losses over the first three years would've been matched by 1986 alone.

As you can probably surmise by reviewing my site, USFL.info (blatant plug... sorry), the league would have best been served had it maintained a spring schedule. Had it held out with minimal further franchise turnover until 1989 or 1990, it's likely that television and other revenues would've stemmed the financial bleeding and allowed the league to survive.

hey that is great site you have any plans to add more information to it? wondering if you had info about plan 1986 season: drafts, schedule etc

There was no 1986 draft to my knowledge, and while I have copies of the league's '86 schedule and so forth, it's not enough to merit updating the site with at this point. And while I really would like to give the thing a good top-down shakeout and update, I have about 500 irons in the fire that sadly take precedence right now.

[dfwabel]

The Bandits were financially incapable of playing. The new owners had a lien against them from Bret Clark. Law enforcement took equipment, weights, and all assets in August 1986.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1346&dat=19860805&id=iqpOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lfsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6564,2194093

Nearly every USFL team used long term, deferred payments for the biggest stars and no TV deal came into place.

[smith03]

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/05/07/sports/haight-no-1-pick-in-usfl-draft.html held in May 86 also did a territorial draft a few weeks before

[mkg74]

To go with the original premisis of this thread... this is how 1985 looks. The owners vote against the fall, Trump and Einhorn abandon the league(thank god!). The Blitz fold,the league concedes no need for the Chicago market with the Bears on the rise and terrible attendance in both '83 and '84. Federals moved to Miami as planned. The Outlaws merge with Gunslingers, stronger ownership led by the Tatham's insures better survival in San Antonio and talks of a domed stadium are in the works.

Eastern Conference

Atlantic Division

NJ Generals

Philadelphia Stars

Pittsburgh Maulers

Memphis Showboats(doesn't make sense being in Atlantic division but what the heck, the Cowboys in the NFC East doesn't make any geographical sense either but is very accepted)

Southern Division

Birmingham Stallions

Tampa Bay Bandits

Miami Renegades(Total overhaul, ditch the Federals' nickname. Schnellenberger starts the rebuilding project)

Jacksonville Bulls

Western Conference

Central Division

Michigan Panthers

San Antonio Outlaws(the fans embrace this team over the Gunslingers, how could have anyone taken that logo seriously and or the previous joke of an ownership)

Houston Gamblers

New Orleans Breakers(no need to move, attendance in the big easy was pretty good in '84!, they've found a permanent home hehe)

Pacific Division

Arizona Wranglers

Oakland Invaders

LA Express(still struggling, they get out of the LA Colosium and play their games at Anaheim Stadium instead)

Denver Gold

A leaner and meaner USFL emerges at 16 teams, perfect for scheduling as well. Teams in conference meet twice a year, retaining up and coming rivalries(this is important for Memphis) Out of conference rotates every year (i.e atlantic vs central....southern vs pacific and vise versa) easy 18 game schedules.....

[smith03]

To go with the original premisis of this thread... this is how 1985 looks. The owners vote against the fall, Trump and Einhorn abandon the league(thank god!). The Blitz fold,the league concedes no need for the Chicago market with the Bears on the rise and terrible attendance in both '83 and '84. Federals moved to Miami as planned. The Outlaws merge with Gunslingers, stronger ownership led by the Tatham's insures better survival in San Antonio and talks of a domed stadium are in the works.

Eastern Conference

Atlantic Division

NJ Generals

Philadelphia Stars

Pittsburgh Maulers

Memphis Showboats(doesn't make sense being in Atlantic division but what the heck, the Cowboys in the NFC East doesn't make any geographical sense either but is very accepted)

Southern Division

Birmingham Stallions

Tampa Bay Bandits

Miami Renegades(Total overhaul, ditch the Federals' nickname. Schnellenberger starts the rebuilding project)

Jacksonville Bulls

Western Conference

Central Division

Michigan Panthers

San Antonio Outlaws(the fans embrace this team over the Gunslingers, how could have anyone taken that logo seriously and or the previous joke of an ownership)

Houston Gamblers

New Orleans Breakers(no need to move, attendance in the big easy was pretty good in '84!, they've found a permanent home hehe)

Pacific Division

Arizona Wranglers

Oakland Invaders

LA Express(still struggling, they get out of the LA Colosium and play their games at Anaheim Stadium instead)

Denver Gold

A leaner and meaner USFL emerges at 16 teams, perfect for scheduling as well. Teams in conference meet twice a year, retaining up and coming rivalries(this is important for Memphis) Out of conference rotates every year (i.e atlantic vs central....southern vs pacific and vise versa) easy 18 game schedules.....

To go with the original premisis of this thread... this is how 1985 looks. The owners vote against the fall, Trump and Einhorn abandon the league(thank god!). The Blitz fold,the league concedes no need for the Chicago market with the Bears on the rise and terrible attendance in both '83 and '84. Federals moved to Miami as planned. The Outlaws merge with Gunslingers, stronger ownership led by the Tatham's insures better survival in San Antonio and talks of a domed stadium are in the works.

Eastern Conference

Atlantic Division

NJ Generals

Philadelphia Stars

Pittsburgh Maulers

Memphis Showboats(doesn't make sense being in Atlantic division but what the heck, the Cowboys in the NFC East doesn't make any geographical sense either but is very accepted)

Southern Division

Birmingham Stallions

Tampa Bay Bandits

Miami Renegades(Total overhaul, ditch the Federals' nickname. Schnellenberger starts the rebuilding project)

Jacksonville Bulls

Western Conference

Central Division

Michigan Panthers

San Antonio Outlaws(the fans embrace this team over the Gunslingers, how could have anyone taken that logo seriously and or the previous joke of an ownership)

Houston Gamblers

New Orleans Breakers(no need to move, attendance in the big easy was pretty good in '84!, they've found a permanent home hehe)

Pacific Division

Arizona Wranglers

Oakland Invaders

LA Express(still struggling, they get out of the LA Colosium and play their games at Anaheim Stadium instead)

Denver Gold

A leaner and meaner USFL emerges at 16 teams, perfect for scheduling as well. Teams in conference meet twice a year, retaining up and coming rivalries(this is important for Memphis) Out of conference rotates every year (i.e atlantic vs central....southern vs pacific and vise versa) easy 18 game schedules.....

not to turn this into a realignment thread but why not leave Miami nee Washington in the atlantic which is probably what they would have done and leave Memphis in the southern division or I would have left New Orleans in the southern and moved Memphis to the central again with Miami in the Atlantic.

sorry for the double post just saw this but Arizona Wranglers would have been gone the outlaws would have still merge with them, no evidence that san Antonio and Oklahoma would have merged

[smith03]

also if the express moved to Anaheim which probably not a good idea playing spring football in another baseball stadium, they would have to change their name because the league had a rule about that, (read about this in the $1 League) that is why you had the new jersey not new York generals and the Michigan not Detroit panthers.

[rainmaker17]

So there's a deal on Abilify?

[LAWeaver]

This may be our first drug-dealing spammer. From the looks of it, he takes his job seriously

[BirminghamProSports.com]

Not sure if this is the appropriate forum, but thought it might be.

Hypothetically speaking, which USFL teams could have survived and how would the league have evolved? Of the list below, I think Baltimore, Jacksonville, Memphis, Tampa Bay, Houston and San Antonio would have had the best chance to survive. As I recall, there were no NFL teams in Memphis, Baltimore, Jacksonville, Houston and SAntonio at that time, and the Tampa fan based wasn't nearly as strong as it is today. SAntonio could have merged with Houston to strengthen their ownership team as some point. Birmingham would be a bit of a wildcard...would the USFL eventually move them to a larger market? The USFL teams are below. If the USFL would have survived, and won more than a #4 in their anti-trust suit, what would the USFL look like today (markets/teams) and would the NFL be as powerful today?

Philadelphia / Baltimore Stars

Boston /New Orleans/ Portland Breakers

NJ Generals

Washington Federals

Michigan Panthers

Chicago Bitz

Tampa Bay Bandits

Birmingham Stallions

Oakland Invaders

LA Express

Denver Gold

Arizona Wranglers

Pittsburgh Maulers

Memphis Showboats

Houston Gamblers

San Antonio Gunslingers

Oklahoma / Arizona Outlaws

Orlando Renegades

Arizona Wranglers

Jacksonville Bulls

I think Birmingham would support a team but Birmingham's ownership group at the end of the USFL was piecemeal at best.