Rob Manfred: BLASPHEMER!

[Dogeshak]

Maybe part of the disagreement is the evolution of the DH as the game progressed. The utilization is different from ten years ago, nonetheless twenty years ago. I played high school baseball within the last five years. I play collegiate baseball now, and I can say from my personal experience there are only a couple pitchers who were allowed to hit in the lineup. We've had pitcher's BP and it's embarrassing... Like I said, there are definitely guys who can play both sides, but most give up on hitting pretty quickly.

[infrared41]

32 minutes ago, McCarthy said:

complete opposite from my experience of high school baseball at a bigger school. All of our best athletes were pitchers. Most of them swung the bat in games they were pitching in. We used the DH more for light hitting, but solid fielders like me.

 

My coach told me the best hitter he ever coached at the high school level was major league pitcher Kent Mercker.

 

Same here. When I played in high school, our best pitcher also batted cleanup. When he wasn't pitching, he played CF and batted cleanup. We used the DH for our RF who, as they say, couldn't hit water if he fell out of a -ing boat. Seems to me that the majority of pitchers don't stop hitting for themselves until they sign a pro contract. 

[pmoehrin]

2 hours ago, McCarthy said:

My coach told me the best hitter he ever coached at the high school level was major league pitcher Kent Mercker.

 

I'm not surprised by that at all.

 

I don't think most people really understand the type of level Major League Players are at. Yeah pitchers as a whole batted around .120 last year. Do people actually understand how hard it is to hit .120 at the Major League level? The vast majority of us would strike out 95% of the time on three pitches.

 

Guys like Zack Greinke and Madison Bumgarner would still be major leaguers even if they weren't pitchers. People laugh when they see Steve Nebraska in The Scout. The scary part is compared to the average population, its not that much of an exaggeration of an AVERAGE major league player.

 

That's why I find all of these parallels drawn between high school and Major Leagues to be ridiculous. To me its almost the same as comparing college players to little leaguers. That's the type of talent jump we're talking about. But also the whole debate at the Major League level is driven by the CBA. The game would be perfectly fine with or without a DH. End of the day it really does not make that much of a difference. Yeah the strategy is different and we all have our preferences. Mine is for no DH, but end of the day its still baseball and I'm going to enjoy pretty much all the same no matter how this plays out.

 

But there's no CBA at the High School level. The only question you should ask is what's best for the players and I think what's best for the players at the level is for everyone to learn how to hit. There's three key elements to the game. Fielding, hitting and pitching. The last one is optional, but everyone should know how to do the first two. Believe me when I say time management of drills in high school hasn't enabled or prevented a single player from reaching the Major Leagues.

[FiddySicks]

23 minutes ago, pmoehrin said:

The only question you should ask is what's best for the players and I think what's best for the players at the level is for everyone to learn how to hit. There's three key elements to the game. Fielding, hitting and pitching. The last one is optional, but everyone should know how to do the first two. Believe me when I say time management of drills in high school hasn't enabled or prevented a single player from reaching the Major Leagues.

 

Exactly. All of this "The NL is the only league where pitchers hit!" talk is ridiculous, and that it's being used as a justification for the DH is maddening. The fact that pitchers don't touch a bat past high school/college is why pitchers suck as bad as they do. It doesn't show that the National League has a problem, but that the rest of baseball as a professional sport has a bit of a serious fundamental flaw that's causing such a gap in hitting ability. And the most frustrating thing is that the flaw is so easily fixable. Just ditch the stupid DH already. It's an antiquated rule that does nothing but actively encourage players to only learn to play half of the sport and extends the careers of players who's careers really shouldn't be extended. One of the reasons why guys like Randy Johnson looked so damn miserable at the plate for so long is because he probably hadn't even picked up a bat in two decades. That's an alarmingly bad problem when you're job is to throw the balls those bats are swung at. But you know what? After he went to the National league and actually took a few at bats, he didn't look quite as terrible anymore. He was never a good hitting pitcher by any stretch of the imagination, but at least by the time he was pitching for the Giants he was hitting weak sacrifice bloopers that moved runners over rather than flailing wildly and screwing himself into the ground like he did with Seattle. Funny how that happens, give professional athletes at least SOME exposure to part of the game, and they're usually talented enough to pick it up.

[TheOldRoman]

3 hours ago, Sykotyk said:

 

That's because HS Football has limited rosters. And just because they might have 40-50 guys standing on the sideline who want to be 'part of the team' aren't really capable of playing. A kid playing both ways tends to be a better option than some of the benchwarmers.

 

 

Sometimes that's the case, but not my high school. My school was really big and we had, I believe, 60 kids on the sophomore team. And a handful of the backups ended up becoming starters on varsity, so there was talent outside of the 9 kids the coaches decided needed to play every single down.

 

30 minutes ago, pmoehrin said:

 

I'm not surprised by that at all.

 

I don't think most people really understand the type of level Major League Players are at. Yeah pitchers as a whole batted around .120 last year. Do people actually understand how hard it is to hit .120 at the Major League level? The vast majority of us would strike out 95% of the time on three pitches.

 

Definitely. Just as we always hear that great pro athletes also had offers for college scholarships in 2 or 3 other sports. Just the fact that an AL pitcher, who before the Astros moved to the AL would only possibly have to bat over a two week span, would have the ability to even make contact with a 100 mph pitch shows that these guys are absolutely the best of the best.

[2001mark]

I find it a bit baffling that pitchers seem to give up batting so early in their 'careers'.  Often enough, as kids/teens, they seem to be some of the better all around players... that they've got bats taken out of their hands is crazy to me.

 

Having said that, they're also throwing harder & more, much earlier than ever before yes?  Also eroding the MLB position.  

 

I've a bit of a theory on that concerning most sports- are kids being specialized too early?  Are they consuming too many artificial/naturally amped foods & supplements impeding any longer term natural body development?  

Nolan Ryan 2.0 ain't comin' around any time soon me thinks

 

[Sport]

13 hours ago, pmoehrin said:

 

I'm not surprised by that at all.

 

I don't think most people really understand the type of level Major League Players are at. Yeah pitchers as a whole batted around .120 last year. Do people actually understand how hard it is to hit .120 at the Major League level? The vast majority of us would strike out 95% of the time on three pitches.

 

Guys like Zack Greinke and Madison Bumgarner would still be major leaguers even if they weren't pitchers. People laugh when they see Steve Nebraska in The Scout. The scary part is compared to the average population, its not that much of an exaggeration of an AVERAGE major league player.

 

I always go back to the Rick Ankiel story. I'm sure there's a few others like him, but that guy rose through the minors to reach the Major League level as a pitcher and then did it again as a position player after getting the yips. That's incredibly impressive. 

[OnWis97]

I wonder whether "pitchers can't hit" has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I know there is something to be said for focusing on one or the other or else Babe Ruth would have pitched every few games and played the rest in the OF.  But if we basically are not letting 'em hit after high school, then yeah, this is how it's going to be and unfortunately, it's at the point where I am guess most fans now think we pretty much have to have the DH.  If I had a magic wand, I'd make the AL the only level with a DH and let pitchers hit in college and the minors for the next decade and see whether there is any improvement.

 

I tried to find out how much drop off there's been in the ability of pitchers to hit before/after the AL instituted the DH.  I was looking for simple pitcher batting average by year. I could not find it.  I am not an analytics guy (I get it, philosophically but don't really get what goes into the numbers) but the best I could find is here (http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2013/1/17/3884274/a-brief-history-of-pitchers-hitting).  I have no idea what wRC+ is, but according to this page, the decline has been more steady since 1900 and does not show much of a before/after DH split.  So the self-fulfilling prophecy and specialization has probably been around for much longer than the DH.

 

Fake Edit: It appears wRC+ measures the productivity of a hitter(s) (in this case all pitchers) vs. the rest of MLB.  So the dramatic drop makes a ton of sense since almost nobody hit well in the deadball era.  That makes this chart somewhat less meaningful, as the pitchers' wRC+ seems in some part based upon how much offense the rest of the MLB is producing.  It's an interesting chart...I wonder whether that one spike between 1966 and 1977 is "the year of the pitcher" (1968?) when offense was way down overall (in other words everyone else moved downward toward while pitchers remained stagnant).  Anyhow, I'd like to just see a basic history of batting by the position; batting average or on-base percentage.  Either would give an indication of roughly when they became hapless and the impact of the worst rule change in recent sports history.

[NJTank]

On thing I think that should be changed in the Regular season only. The DH should be used in Interleague games at the NL ballpark and the pitcher should hit in AL parks. How is that for a changeup

[pcgd]

One thing on HS Pitchers, never met a stud pitcher that wasn't also one of the best hitters on their HS team. We so rarely DH'd for our pitcher.  There were a few we did, but they were typically the #3 or 4 pitcher. That being said, it does happen at the college level.  Not 100% of the time, but typically those pitchers did not hit, but they could hit, and very well.  They were just better pitchers typically and there were plenty of guys that could mash that it wasn't worth it. 

 

And I kinda played baseball at a successful D3 school and batted against a guy that got drafted but never made it above rookie ball.  Its so impossibly hard to hit pitchers that good I don't think even good HS players realize it. I think I foul tipped one pitch from him over like 10 ABs and that guy was ONLY throwing low 90s. I can't even imagine mid or upper 90s with movement.  Its hard enough to CATCH those guys throwing over 90 when you know when and where the pitch is coming. 

 

I am an NL fan and prefer the NL game.  However I saw it described that the AL game is more exciting, but the NL game is more interesting.  I think that's fair.  I also saw a suggestion of having the DH attached to the pitcher.  So when the starter comes out, so does the DH. You get the DH you want along with 2-3 ABs, but you still have the strategy of later innings in the NL with double switches and all that.  In fact, you have the added strategy of possibly not pulling a starter because your DH is up in the next inning.

 

I'm not saying it should change to that, but it'd be interesting to see that tested in the minors for a few seasons.  I hated 3v3 on paper in hockey but in execution its pretty dang fun. I'm open to seeing something like that in baseball. 

 

 

[OnWis97]

1 hour ago, NJTank said:

On thing I think that should be changed in the Regular season only. The DH should be used in Interleague games at the NL ballpark and the pitcher should hit in AL parks. How is that for a changeup

I have always liked that idea.  And I am kinda surprised MLB does not implement it. I would be going to interleague games like mad.  I suspect it could, at least temporarily spike attendance in one-team markets.  

[pmoehrin]

8 hours ago, McCarthy said:

I always go back to the Rick Ankiel story. I'm sure there's a few others like him, but that guy rose through the minors to reach the Major League level as a pitcher and as a position player after getting the yips. That's incredibly impressive. 

 

Its why the whole concept of specialization at the High School level is completely ridiculous.

 

When people talk about specialization at the pro level, its purely about maximizing someone's pro's. At that level especially if your a veteran, you're better off doing that then trying to improve on weaknesses. It is not at all the same when in comes to High School.

 

To me most if not all of this BS comes from parents and coaches just simply trying to copy what the pros do under the assumption that what's best for them is what's best for everyone. What I wish far more people would know is that the key to making the MLB, or the NBA, or the NFL or any of the major pro sports has and always will be how much raw talent a person has. People think its roughly a 50/50 breakdown between ability and hard work as far as what determines whether or not someone makes it, when its really more like 90/10.

 

Growing up I knew a kid that spent a hour a day in the batting cage every almost single day, did an hour of fielding practice, spent time in the video room, had all kinds of different coaches some of whom had even played at the pro level, was on travel leagues, you name it. He put as much effort into being a Major Leaguer as anyone you see on the diamond today. And what did all that get him? Couldn't even make the High School varsity team in his sophomore year. Finally made the team as a backup in his Junior year, but he didn't take the hint that was probably it for his baseball career and tried to walk onto the Florida State varsity team. You know, the same team Buster Posey played on. He hit the gym hard all summer, kept up with the practice and thought for sure he had done enough to be able to walk onto the team and set the world on fire. I don't think I need to mention how well it actually went. The sad part is those kids are a dime a dozen. There's thousands if not millions of frustrated dads out there thinking if their kid just works a little harder they have a chance at making the big leagues not realizing that they're making them spent their entire childhood in pursuit of a fantasy and I say fantasy and not dream because dreams are attainable.

 

Point is either you have it or you don't and no amount of hard work is going to change that. Hakeem Olajuwon didn't even pick up a basketball until he was 15 years old. Which do you think had more to do with his success in the NBA. His work ethic, or the fact that he was 7 feet tall? No doubt its a bit both, but I know for me growing another foot would have definitely helped out my basketball career, starting with the fact that at 7 foot I may have actually been able to have one.

[OnWis97]

1 hour ago, pmoehrin said:

Point is either you have it or you don't and no amount of hard work is going to change that. Hakeem Olajuwon didn't even pick up a basketball until he was 15 years old. Which do you think had more to do with his success in the NBA. His work ethic, or the fact that he was 7 feet tall? No doubt its a bit both, but I know for me growing another foot would have definitely helped out my basketball career, staring with the fact that at 7 foot I may have actually been able to have one.

Very true.  

 

To be fair, I am sure plenty of people have it and waste it. Maybe there is someone out there that would have had their cup of coffee in MLB if they'd worked as hard the kid you know.  But most people frankly don't have the god-given ability that would get them a scholarship, much less a pro career, no matter how hard they worked.  And most that make it probably played other sports. 

 

For the same reason a kid should not decide to be an accountant at age 10 and then stick with it no matter what, a kid should not pick one sport and never play the others.  They need variety to learn what they are good at and what they like.  And I suspect there is a ton of value for a great baseball player to also play basketball and be just average and get some humility.  Not only that, but a couple of hours of only one sport (or, better yet, only one aspect of one sport) is going to suck the joy out of it for many.  I have to think playing a few sports, even if just for pickup/recreational purposes, keeps kids fresh for the mental aspects of the game.

 

I am, ugh, 41 and when I was a kid specialization was pretty rare.  It's a much bigger thing now.  I have a couple of friends with sons playing hockey 11 months a year.  It'll be really interesting to see which kids make it; the specialized ones or the ones with variety.  The specialization is probably a double-edged sword.  More time working on one thing may improve it; the most driven/focused kids may benefit.  But I suspect many kids will just get burnt out.

[TheOldRoman]

Yeah, even the scrappy "untalented" guys who make it to the bigs on heart alone have a whole bunch of talent. David Eckstein was 5'7" and had no power, but he still had the lightning quick reflexes it takes to hit a baseball. I'm taller, probably considerably stronger and maybe even faster than him, but I couldn't get down a bunt off Jamie Moyer if my life depended on it.

[infrared41]

You guys have made some great points on how talented you need to be to play Major League baseball. I'll just add this -  If you ever want to get a real idea of just how good MLB players are, play a game or two of baseball in a rec league or whatever. MLB players...hell, players all the way down to AA make it look a whole lot easier than it is. 

[twi]

What's never sat right with me in a DH league is that a pitcher can bean a guy with near absolute personal impunity. If you're never in the batters' box, you have no place throwing at a guy. I call it the Clemens factor. 

[2001mark]

MLB reg season games in London by 2017.  

 

Are the Jacksonville Jaguars switching sports?

[The_Admiral]

It was a failure of baseball management over the years not to grow the game in other English-speaking, ball-and-stick-playing countries (UK, Australia, India). I don't know about playing regular-season games there now, but I guess it's something.