Are Refs ever fined/fired?

[yh]

On a tangentially related note, does the NFL test its officials for steroids? Ed Hochuli's arms are simply unnatural. Those guns are of Trogdorian proportion.

[Shmee]

Why should the ref be fired? After watching all the replays, he felt conclusive evidence was there to overrule the call on the field. Better to have a call rulved through replay, than blown on the field and not changed.

The analysts were going over all the replays. As long as Polamalu still had his knee touching the ground, he is not considered in the act of making a "football move". He picked off the pass, then rolled on the ground. He was starting to get up, when his knee knocked the ball loose.

That is the tricky part: starting to get up. He was not considered up yet. Had he lifted his knee off the ground, that would have been considered a football move, and it would have been interception, fumble, recovery. But the "fumble" was ruled a part of the continous motion of rolling on the ground after he dove at the ball.

Bottom line? Incomplete pass. Conclusive evidence that the ball was not officially caught. And Pittsburgh won anyway.

Sorry, Jim... The NFL disagrees with you...

NFL: Polamalu overturned interception the wrong call

The NFL said the referee made a mistake: Troy Polamalu caught the ball.

The league acknowledged Monday that referee Pete Morelli erred when he overturned on replay Polamalu's interception of a Peyton Manning pass Sunday in the playoff game between Pittsburgh and Indianapolis.

Mike Pereira, the league's vice president of officiating, said in a statement that Morelli should have upheld the call, made with 5:26 left in Pittsburgh's win over the Colts.

"He maintained possession long enough to establish a catch," Pereira said. "Therefore, the replay review should have upheld the call on the field that it was a catch and fumble."

After the reversal, the Colts went on to score a touchdown and a 2-point conversion, cutting the Steelers' 21-10 lead to 21-18. That led to a wild final few minutes and Pittsburgh clinched its win only when the Colts' Mike Vanderjagt missed a 46-yard field-goal attempt.

On the play, Polamalu made a diving catch of Manning's pass, tumbled with it in his hands and got up to run. When he did, he fumbled the ball, then recovered. Colts coach Tony Dungy challenged and Morelli ruled Polamalu had not completed the catch.

Shortly after the game, Morelli said: "I had the defender catching the ball. Before he got up, he hit it with his leg with his other leg still on the ground. Therefore, he did not complete the catch. And then he lost the ball. It came out, and so we made the play an incomplete pass."

Had the call stood, the Steelers would have had the ball at their own 48 with an 11-point lead.

"The definition of a catch -- or in this case an interception -- states that in the process of making a catch a player must maintain possession of the ball after he contacts the ground," Pereira said.

"The rule regarding the performing of an act common to the game applies when there is contact with a defensive player and the ball comes loose, which did not happen here."

The NFL almost never makes public the result of its reviews, although it did three years ago, when Pereira said officials should have called pass interference against San Francisco on the final play of a wild-card game with the New York Giants. The correct call would have given New York a second chance to kick a game-winning field goal in a 39-38 loss.

After the game, Pittsburgh linebacker Joey Porter said of the ruling:

"I know they wanted Indy to win this game; the whole world loves Peyton Manning. But come on, man, don't take the game away from us like that."

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello had no comment on Porter's statement.

In the past, players who have made such statements have been subject to fines.

Polamalu's overturned interception wasn't the only unusual call. Earlier in the game, when the Steelers were preparing to go for a fourth-and-inches from the Pittsburgh 48, two Colts defensive lineman ran across the line of scrimmage, pointing at the Steelers as if one of the linemen moved.

The officials stopped the game, but called no penalty.

Replays appeared to show Alan Faneca barely flinched. But Steelers coach Bill Cowher argued the Colts made contact with the linemen, which would have forced an offside call and a first down. Instead, Ben Roethlisberger ran a quarterback sneak for a first down, which allowed Pittsburgh to use another 5:02 before punting.

[ROCHitman]

There's no set definition of a "football move". It's purely judgment in the eyes of the referee. A player rolling on the ground, in most cases it's momentum that propells the rolling player. A player doesn't roll twice or three times intentionally. But if the ball comes loose while the player is still rolling, then it's not a completed pass, and that's why Polamalu's INT was reversed to an incomplete pass.

Had a Colt touched Polamalu while he was still on the ground, maybe the play would have been ended at that point with Polamalu down by contact. Then it might not have mattered if the ball came loose after he was touched.

Finally, the key word comes out; JUDGEMENT.

Morrelli was wrong is "judging" that the pass was incomplete.

Referees make mistakes. This one happened to come at a critical time in a playoff game. Professional officials can be demoted, but are rarely fined. If fined, it's usually for acts that have to do with their behavior, interactions with coaches and/or fans, and not because of their calls and/or judgements.

I find it interesting that the media, and us for that matter, have been criticizing officials in these playoffs games without end. The same calls were being made during the regular season but because we were not focused on 2 games a day, we either didn't see them or just let them be. There is no reason to think that the crews still working during the playoffs are doing a worse job than they did earlier in the season. They are simple under a national microsscope because of so few games being played.

[WSU151]

Anybody remember when on MNF this year when Sproles muffed it and it went right to a Steeler, but they called fair catch interference when the ball bounced right to him

I do remember that, and that was the right call. A muff doesn't happen until the ball hits the ground - and in Sproles' case, he was hit by a Steeler on a fair catch before the ball hit the ground and became a fumble. That was the correct call.

and jp - I don't understand your defense of the incompletion based on your analysis that read: if a Colts player touched Polamalu while he was down, it would be an interception.

If a Colts player would have touched Polamalu, and the interception would have counted, that meant that Polamalu caught the ball. You can't take a catch away because Polamalu gets up under his own power after making the catch, then loses the ball. If he caught it...he caught it. It shouldn't be a case if "Well, if he would have been touched by the opposition, he would have caught it."

If he would have dropped the ball while being tackled/touched, then you can rule it incomplete.

The league really needs to work on this "football move" rule and come to a better determination of what counts as a catch.

[slapshot]

Why should the ref be fired? After watching all the replays, he felt conclusive evidence was there to overrule the call on the field. Better to have a call rulved through replay, than blown on the field and not changed.

The analysts were going over all the replays. As long as Polamalu still had his knee touching the ground, he is not considered in the act of making a "football move". He picked off the pass, then rolled on the ground. He was starting to get up, when his knee knocked the ball loose.

That is the tricky part: starting to get up. He was not considered up yet. Had he lifted his knee off the ground, that would have been considered a football move, and it would have been interception, fumble, recovery. But the "fumble" was ruled a part of the continous motion of rolling on the ground after he dove at the ball.

Bottom line? Incomplete pass. Conclusive evidence that the ball was not officially caught. And Pittsburgh won anyway.

Sorry, Jim... The NFL disagrees with you...

NFL: Polamalu overturned interception the wrong call

The NFL said the referee made a mistake: Troy Polamalu caught the ball.

The league acknowledged Monday that referee Pete Morelli erred when he overturned on replay Polamalu's interception of a Peyton Manning pass Sunday in the playoff game between Pittsburgh and Indianapolis.

Mike Pereira, the league's vice president of officiating, said in a statement that Morelli should have upheld the call, made with 5:26 left in Pittsburgh's win over the Colts.

"He maintained possession long enough to establish a catch," Pereira said. "Therefore, the replay review should have upheld the call on the field that it was a catch and fumble."

After the reversal, the Colts went on to score a touchdown and a 2-point conversion, cutting the Steelers' 21-10 lead to 21-18. That led to a wild final few minutes and Pittsburgh clinched its win only when the Colts' Mike Vanderjagt missed a 46-yard field-goal attempt.

On the play, Polamalu made a diving catch of Manning's pass, tumbled with it in his hands and got up to run. When he did, he fumbled the ball, then recovered. Colts coach Tony Dungy challenged and Morelli ruled Polamalu had not completed the catch.

Shortly after the game, Morelli said: "I had the defender catching the ball. Before he got up, he hit it with his leg with his other leg still on the ground. Therefore, he did not complete the catch. And then he lost the ball. It came out, and so we made the play an incomplete pass."

Had the call stood, the Steelers would have had the ball at their own 48 with an 11-point lead.

"The definition of a catch -- or in this case an interception -- states that in the process of making a catch a player must maintain possession of the ball after he contacts the ground," Pereira said.

"The rule regarding the performing of an act common to the game applies when there is contact with a defensive player and the ball comes loose, which did not happen here."

The NFL almost never makes public the result of its reviews, although it did three years ago, when Pereira said officials should have called pass interference against San Francisco on the final play of a wild-card game with the New York Giants. The correct call would have given New York a second chance to kick a game-winning field goal in a 39-38 loss.

After the game, Pittsburgh linebacker Joey Porter said of the ruling:

"I know they wanted Indy to win this game; the whole world loves Peyton Manning. But come on, man, don't take the game away from us like that."

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello had no comment on Porter's statement.

In the past, players who have made such statements have been subject to fines.

Polamalu's overturned interception wasn't the only unusual call. Earlier in the game, when the Steelers were preparing to go for a fourth-and-inches from the Pittsburgh 48, two Colts defensive lineman ran across the line of scrimmage, pointing at the Steelers as if one of the linemen moved.

The officials stopped the game, but called no penalty.

Replays appeared to show Alan Faneca barely flinched. But Steelers coach Bill Cowher argued the Colts made contact with the linemen, which would have forced an offside call and a first down. Instead, Ben Roethlisberger ran a quarterback sneak for a first down, which allowed Pittsburgh to use another 5:02 before punting.

I actually did think Polamalu intercepted the pass. I never said I agreed with the referee. I was explaining how the referee can come to his conclusion and judgment based upon the replay.

As for WSU, one Polamalu is touched by a Colt, the play is over. Based upon the rules, once touched, Polamalu is considered tackled and/or down, and the ball is immediately dead. Nothing that happens after the ball is dead has any bearing on the play, unless there is a personal foul of some sort. Since he wasn't touched, the play was allowed to continue until after the fumble, recovery, and "tackle" by a Colt.

Yes, it sounds contradictory. But that's my interpretation of the rules. I ref in a league that used modified NFL rules, and a player can get up if he touches the ground and an opponent doesn't contact him.

And to Yale, check either this week's or last week's issue of Sports Illustrated. Nice article about Hochuli and his "guns of steel", complete with his weekly exercise schedule. The NFL Network also did a feature on him a few weeks ago. He worked Super Bowl XXXVIII in Houston, and his family and grandchildren were in attendance in the stands, all wearing his extra referee jerseys.

[WSU151]

As for WSU, one Polamalu is touched by a Colt, the play is over. Based upon the rules, once touched, Polamalu is considered tackled and/or down, and the ball is immediately dead. Nothing that happens after the ball is dead has any bearing on the play, unless there is a personal foul of some sort. Since he wasn't touched, the play was allowed to continue until after the fumble, recovery, and "tackle" by a Colt.

Yes, it sounds contradictory. But that's my interpretation of the rules. I ref in a league that used modified NFL rules, and a player can get up if he touches the ground and an opponent doesn't contact him.

My biggest point is that if you consider it a catch when he's down, has complete possession of the ball, and "tackled", then you should consider it a catch when he's down, has possession (which he did when he rolled), he's not "tackled" and starts to get up, even if he fumbles while in the process of getting up.

A catch is a catch is a catch. You shouldn't have to be "tackled" in order for it to be ruled a catch.

Otherwise there's no reason to get up after making a diving interception, for possibility of fumbling while getting up.

[TFoA]

Interesting that David Stern would suspend a referee, and it have nothing to do with Lakers/Kings Game 6 in 2002... (the second-worst officiated game in NBA history).

That was the worst to me, IMO. It was basically a street-ball game, and the refs either made the wrong call at the wrong time, or didn't make any call when a foul or another infraction was blatantly seen. Example would be Kobe's elbow to Mike Bibby in the waning seconds of that game. There was no call, which I thought was amazing.

[Steel Certain]

I find it interesting that the media, and us for that matter, have been criticizing officials in these playoffs games without end. The same calls were being made during the regular season

Just because someone won the Indy 500 in 1947 doesn't mean that they are fit to be driving a car at high speed (or at all) in 2006. In the same line of thought, just because a ref used to be sharp, cogent and aware doesn't mean that he's still "on top of his game" now.

My initial question was whether or not officials ever get fired or fined due to bad calls. Of course we criticize officials, in regular season and particularly in the playoffs. There's slightly more slack in the regular season because you have 16 games to advance to the playoffs. In the playoffs, your life and death depends on every single game...thus the less-forgiving standards.

[WJMorris3]

Getting back on topic, I know that Phil Luckett, he of the infamous Thanksgiving coin flip and

Vinny Testaverde's phantom touchdown, was demoted to back judge.

...where he ended up playing free safety for the Carolina Panthers against the Saints' Joe Horn.

[See Red]

Getting back on topic, I know that Phil Luckett, he of the infamous Thanksgiving coin flip and

Vinny Testaverde's phantom touchdown, was demoted to back judge.

... where he, as a back judge, messed up two times in the Seahawks/Giants game this year, where he said two plays were complete passes, when they shouldn't have been. Those two plays happened to be Touchdowns.

[NJTank]

Well it was a bad call and the NFL got lucky with Vanderjagts miss because if the Colts won the game they would really have some explaing to do.

[BCBoy]

Well it was a bad call and the NFL got lucky with Vanderjagts miss because if the Colts won the game they would really have some explaing to do.

Yeah, no kidding, I was thinking of that myself, and that miscall would've gone in the the books along with the tuck rule incident as some of the worst playoffs miscalls of all-time.

[ROCHitman]

I find it interesting that the media, and us for that matter, have been criticizing officials in these playoffs games without end.  The same calls were being made during the regular season

Just because someone won the Indy 500 in 1947 doesn't mean that they are fit to be driving a car at high speed (or at all) in 2006. In the same line of thought, just because a ref used to be sharp, cogent and aware doesn't mean that he's still "on top of his game" now.

My initial question was whether or not officials ever get fired or fined due to bad calls. Of course we criticize officials, in regular season and particularly in the playoffs. There's slightly more slack in the regular season because you have 16 games to advance to the playoffs. In the playoffs, your life and death depends on every single game...thus the less-forgiving standards.

Very strange analogy indeed.

The crews that work in the playoffs are the best in the NFL. Each crew is rated for every regular season game they work. Only the best crews draw playoff assigments. The better crews have yet to work any games as they were assigned the Super Bowl and Championship Games.

I suspect Mike Carey's crew and Bernie Kukar's crew to be working one, if not both, of the games this coming weekend.

I said this many months ago...

I know the Umpire on Kukar's crew as he used to officiate basketball and football here in NY. I never worked with him but know many that have. We've been corresponsing through email all season and he's lead me to believe that his crew is working this weekend.

[KevinMcD]

And to Yale, check either this week's or last week's issue of Sports Illustrated. Nice article about Hochuli and his "guns of steel", complete with his weekly exercise schedule. The NFL Network also did a feature on him a few weeks ago. He worked Super Bowl XXXVIII in Houston, and his family and grandchildren were in attendance in the stands, all wearing his extra referee jerseys.

He was on "6 days to Sunday" a show where they follow around a player or a coach or someone for 6 days before a big game.

[VitaminD]

Well it was a bad call and the NFL got lucky with Vanderjagts miss because if the Colts won the game they would really have some explaing to do.

Ten-to-one, the NFL would have had ZERO explaining to do. It's much easier to admit your crew blew a major call when the slighted team wins in the end. Had the Colts come back to win, the NFL would never have come out on their own and admitted this, certainly not this quickly and without being pressured.