some advice

[geminijoe28]

i posted a request at the request boards and it had turned into a big squabble..

what i am asking is if you can please read that post and please give me your personal comments on it...

i know this is not the place for it but..i feel that "concepts forum" is directly related to it....

all i am asking is for honesty and to know that i did not mean any disrespect to any one

the post will give you more information

request

thank you

jose e. o'canas jr.

[Moser316]

There really isn't any more to say that Joel or JR (paynomind) hasn't already said. It's almost the graphic designer's equivalent to a moustache on the Mona Lisa. You just don't ask a designer to alter another designer's hard work in that fashion.

[jgsmith725]

I think that whole post got blown out of proportion, he does have a point, ITS A FANTASY LOGO for goodness sakes. He asked for one simple request and other posters on this thread completely blew it out. There are alot of good designers and for some of us to turn on him so quickly was out of line. So many on this thread take other logos and manipulate, all he wants is 2 changes to a logo for his fantasy team. If so many are worried about it then help him out in getting the designers name so he can call and ask him to see if it is ok to change the logo to hockey instead of lacrosse. I love this board, so many good designers and good comments but then sometimes so many are ready to be so harsh. GEEEEZZ!

[ABCJr]

I'm realizing I'm in the minority here and I might not understand the issues. Was the original logo a concept logo that was created for this board, or is it a pro logo? I might be a little less sensitive to these issues, but given the fact that this is a simple alteration for a fantasy league, I think everyone's made a bigger deal of this than it had to be.

Gemini- There's a certain amount of yourself that goes into a design. When someone asks to have it changed, regardless of reason, designers take great offense. As Elton John quit a tour with Tina Turner because she suggested a way for him to play the piano, many of the graphic artists on this board (and rightly so) are very protective of the works they've created.

My suggestion of the future is this: If you get an initially bad reaction to a request, then let go of the request. The constant back and forth for a minute change to a logo that will be used for a fantasy team is not worth what happened, let alone TWO threads dedicated to it. Accept that either a) your location name on the logo will be wrong or you won't use that specific logo and move on. It's really not that big of a deal. Breathe and let it go.

[geminijoe28]

the logo that i wanted to have modified is a professional lacrosse logo..the team as mentioned is named the portland lumberjax

as far as i know it was done outside of this board...it might have been done by someone on this board who got paid to do it..and if that is the case i apologize to the fullest extent...but as far as i know it was done by someone oustide the board.

i want to thank all who posted..i know there are lots of members here...i would have like to have gotten everyone's opinion on this because i do think it's important but like ABCJr said, i have to let it go...

as in ur reference to music, here is mine...

there are great, great songs out there...some of those great songs become cover songs...the cover song either does it justice, is better than the original or should not have been messed with at all...but how would you know how good or bad it is going to be unless it's give a chance...

either way i have learned a lesson here..i will no longer ask to manipulate logos out of respect to the designers here...i will however ask if someone could attempt at fantasy logo/teams that i have created, my only hope is that ppl here do not see me in a bad light, my purpose was not to make profit, just have a fantasy team. as mentioned before i did not mean any disrespect to any designers, artists, etc on this board, and to all those offended i do apologize

thank you

jose e. o'canas jr.

[fiasco!]

covers are recorded with the copyright holder's permission. otherwise there would be millions of beatles covers out there.

sorry to take the analogy away.

[fiasco!]

I think that whole post got blown out of proportion, he does have a point, ITS A FANTASY LOGO for goodness sakes. He asked for one simple request and other posters on this thread completely blew it out. There are alot of good designers and for some of us to turn on him so quickly was out of line. So many on this thread take other logos and manipulate, all he wants is 2 changes to a logo for his fantasy team. If so many are worried about it then help him out in getting the designers name so he can call and ask him to see if it is ok to change the logo to hockey instead of lacrosse. I love this board, so many good designers and good comments but then sometimes so many are ready to be so harsh. GEEEEZZ!

the point is not that's it's just a fantasy logo. the point is that it's someone else's logo (who we don't know). the point is someone else's logo would be modified without their knowledge. the point is that it's wrong.

[jgsmith725]

mod edit: This board will not be used as a swap meet for folks who want to tinker with other people's logos. What you do on your own is up to you, but don't come here offering to alter logos or soliciting assistance in altering logos.

Period.

[fiasco!]

let's hear what other designers think about this.

[slapshot]

It's one thing to be inspired by a logo, to have a new logo look similar, but not exactly like, an existing logo. That does happen a lot of the time. One artist may take elements from his or her own designs and use them in other work.

It's another thing to take a logo and modify it to suit your own needs. No matter how you try to justify it, you're not likely to find a designer here who is willing to, or even condone, reworking someone else's logo without their permission.

I think the original designer of the Lumberjax logo is a member of the board. Not that is makes a difference, but most of the more established (not necessarily better, just more experienced) designers here will stick up for each other when it comes to plagiarizing logos.

"It happens everyday?" Maybe. Not here. You would be surprised the lengths that have been reached to call out those who have stolen or modified logos. There is a strong and large network of artists, designers, and LAWYERS here to make sure that designers' rights are not abused by illegally copied artwork.

Fantasy or otherwise, if you change artwork for yur own personal use without the approval of the original artist, you will be called out on it.

[jgsmith725]

Sorry dude, this is just getting way out of hand. exactly you can go to an extent in changing things about logos. Did anyone not see that i said earlier, to help him get the designers name and number so that he can call and get approval. but it seems like no one read that. everyone just wants to start bashing before helping

If so many are worried about it then help him out in getting the designers name so he can call and ask him to see if it is ok to change the logo to hockey instead of lacrosse.

[yh]

Sorry dude, this is just getting way out of hand. exactly you can go to an extent in changing things about logos. Did anyone not see that i said earlier, to help him get the designers name and number so that he can call and get approval. but it seems like no one read that. everyone just wants to start bashing before helping

And some people just like to hear themselves whine. Try understanding what others' respectable motivations are and quit focusing on the negative.

If someone wants to get the original artists' permission fine, but that doesn't take away from the fact that this board's management and most of its members don't want to hold themselves out as the marketplace for the alteration or misuse of someone else's artistic works.

[ABCJr]

I really feel like I have to come to Gemini's defense on this one.

He's coming here with a request that none of us feels all that comfortable fulfilling -- changing the city name and a graphical element in a professional logo without the designer's permission. Regardless of usage, there seems to be some consensus that this violates both a legal standard and an unwritten code of graphic design.

My concern for members of this board is not that there's a negative response; there should be a negative response. But, I'd like to think that those of us that create designs should be able to pull from enough personal experience to know that there's a significant portion of the population that has nary a clue about either the legal or "moral" implications of such a request.

I know we all feel like we're fighting the good fight every day to show people that what we do is more than just create "pretty pictures." We're constantly needing to justify the art and professionalism that is our craft and I'm sure that there are few of us that are not all that interested in educating people when we get to the relatively safe confines of the CCSLC. However, the more we're getting incredibly irate over something like this, instead of being open and educating folks on the importance of honoring the artists' craft, the more shut off we become from the true meaning of what this board is about: sharing and enjoying the many aspects of sports and general design.

As for this designer's perspective, I've had works misused, changed and stolen. I don't appreciate it and get as frustrated as any designer would in those situations. However, art in any form, unless you're truly an arrogant SOB, is created to be shared. You can only control what you put out into this world, not what the reaction (or misuse) will be. I'm not asking any designer to give up his right to his work, but I am asking that, in cases where we have an obvious misunderstanding, that we work to educate rather than berate.

[slapshot]

However, art in any form, unless you're truly an arrogant SOB, is created to be shared. You can only control what you put out into this world, not what the reaction (or misuse) will be.

ABC, you have made some very good points in your defense argument. I think you're wrong about this specific one, but it depends upon your definition of a few things.

If you mean "art" as in "works of art", then yes, it's meant to be shared. Rembrandt, Renoir, Monet, Picasso, etc., made works of art that were meant to be displayed and shared, whether they were in a private collection or available to the masses.

If you mean "art" as in anything that's presented on this board, then you're wrong. The art that's created here as logos, falls more under the heading of "identity" than "art".

I don't think that the creator of a professional or collegiate sports team's identity would feel that the logos are to be shared among all who find them pleasing. I would also think that the team that owns the rights to the logo would want or allow other entities to be able to use that logo at will, just because it has entered the public domain.

The key word in this argument is "rights". An artists hold certain rights to their respective work, as does the buyer of the artwork, for the purpose of identity. If you, as a corporation, commissioned a designer to create your identity, you would hope that it was unique. You wouldn't want to be confused with another company, and to blatantly use a logo that confused your company for another one would be misleading and unethical. You also wouldn't want someone else to lift your logo and use it as their own identity, would you?

We could have a whole debate on rights, usage, copyrights, etc. But that's not really the point. Whether it's for a fantasy team, a high school team, semi-pro, whatever, it really doesn't matter. Just because a team can't police its logos 100% of the time doesn't mean it's right to do it. The fact that we have very keen members of this community that are able to track down the improperly used logos makes it more difficult to happen, but it still does anyway. And it doesn't make the designer or owner of the logos an arrogant SOB.

[nwtrailtrekker]

i think its really stupid that you made a request to just alter an existing logo. its even stupider you open a new topic talking about it.

i mean no offense to anyone in particular, but as a whole this group of people, the CCSLC, are quite judgmental, also kinda immiture, and sometimes sort of jerks. ive been on boards tons more polite to newbies than this one.

so basiclly, you're kindof blown any chance of a good reputation here, just with that 1 request. its sad, its harsh but its true.

SELF EDIT: i forgot i cant speak my mind.

[FiddySicks]

ive been on boards tons more polite to newbies than this one.

Then do all of us a favor and go post there.

[LMU]

There's a huge difference between asking to use a logo as inspiration to create a new one, or asking someone to blatently disfigure an existing logo. And add to that all of the stubborn, whiny griping about why people think that this is unethical, and you've officially blacklisted yourself.

This ignorant mentality seems to be what most newbies bring to the board. All of the ones that feel like they aren't treated well there pretty much made their beds with their actions on the board, namely through being way too demanding in the requests forum, not respecting the rights of a designer, through attempts at logo mutulation or flat out plagerism, posting 50 times in their first 2 days on the board, or by throwing insults or acting like an eight year old in their overenthusiasm towards this thing like the internet.

So, if you're a newbie and want respect, then don't try to flood the board with inane posts and follow the guidelines pinned to each thread and those found in the TFAQ. That's not hard to do.

[VC//]

My dad always says...."If you can't handle the heat, get the **** out"....of course this was said to an employee, whom he fired the next day.

Taking other people's work and changing things is not cool, if your going to do it, figure it out yourself and do it on your computer so no one knows, but to do it openly in a forum where people work their butts off to do quality work and the people that ask good questions to get upto a respectable level...this is a slap to their faces.

Not cool.

[TBGKon]

ive been on boards tons more polite to newbies than this one.

yes, but is it a problem if what the vets on here speak is the truth and that one is only judged after one interacts on the boards and that if one acts in a manner inappropriate and immature, one will be judged accordingly.

[rams80]

i think its really stupid that you made a request to just alter an existing logo. its even stupider you open a new topic talking about it.

i mean no offense to anyone in particular, but as a whole this group of people, the CCSLC, are quite judgmental, also kinda immiture, and sometimes sort of jerks. ive been on boards tons more polite to newbies than this one.

so basiclly, you're kindof blown any chance of a good reputation here, just with that 1 request. its sad, its harsh but its true.

SELF EDIT: i forgot i cant speak my mind.

You know...if you stopped making posts like this, people might eventually start to like you and value your contribution.