St Louis "StL"

[cranium]

I've always been fascinated by the St. Louis Browns and wondered about how their StL and the Cardinal's StL are basically the same. Was this a common public domain logo for St Louis? Does anyone know the history how/why both teams came to share the same lettered logo (I apologize if that is the wrong term)? Could a new team get away with this today?

I recall from this board that such trademarking is involved with UGA using the Packers "G" and how Grambling hasn't been paying the Packers, or something to that effect.

The Browns also seemed to share the same Brownie figure with the Cleveland Browns.

What about the Reds' "C"? Looking at Dressed to the Nines and other places, it appears that several teams used that same style of "c" at some point or another. The first hat is a Cooperstown Cubs hat. I always suspect that when I wear a St. Louis Browns hat everyone thinks that I'm wearing some sort of weird Cardinals alt hat.

[cranium]

Two more Reds' "c"'s

First, Cleveland Indians and second is Indianapolis Clowns

[Gothamite]

Then there's the Chicago Bears....

As for the "St.L", I can't imagine that it's in the public domain. The Browns used various versions throughout their history, borrowing the Cards' logo only briefly.

[goforbroke]

also the C in the Twins TC - a lot of people like wishbones i guess

you make a good case however that is is virtually the same StL .. i brought up a topic a while back that the knicks for a short time used an interlocking NY that was virtually the same as the Yankees (although in orange). i know interlocking NYs are common and that the Mets is admitedly taken from the Giants, but I found it perplexing that the Knicks -who really have no connection with the Yankees at all as far back as i remember - would used the exact same style of NY.

I guess its just common practice sometimes to take logos from other teams of the same city. perhaps they feel that after a while the logo is more symbolizing the city itself than any particular team and therefore rearanging the colors to suit ones own team is perfectly alright

[SabreGuy]

Talking about the "Cincinnati C" reminds me... I have this hat, and it used to drive me BONKERS when my old roommate would call it the "Cincinnati Indians." *grumble*

[BBM]

The Brooklyn Dodgers and Boston Red Sox have virtually the same "B" logo. I have a Dodgers cap and would never ever EVER wear a damn Red Sox cap, so I hope people don't confuse it (thankfully it's Dodger blue).

Unfortunately I'd love to get an old NY Giants cap, but since they wore the same "NY" as the Mets do, people would just assume it to be a fashion Mets cap, which being a Yankee fan I can't have.

[Gothamite]

That speaks more to the failings of the Cooperstown Collection merchandise than anything else.

Those two logos were used only for a short period of time, but they have been immortalized by New Era, Twins and the like. Had they used the more classic version of the logos, there would be no confusion.

[leopard88]

i brought up a topic a while back that the knicks for a short time used an interlocking NY that was virtually the same as the Yankees (although in orange).  i know interlocking NYs are common and that the Mets is admitedly taken from the Giants,  but I found it perplexing that the Knicks -who really have no connection with the Yankees at all as far back as i remember - would used the exact same style of NY.

From the Yankees website:

What would become the most recognizable insignia in sports the interlocking "NY" made its first appearance on the uniforms of the New York Highlanders in 1909. The design was actually created in 1877 by Louis B. Tiffany for a medal to be given by the New York City Police Department to Officer John McDowell, the first NYC policeman shot in the line of duty. Perhaps because one of the club's owners, Bill Devery, was a former NYC police chief, the design was adopted by the Highlanders. It first appeared on both the cap and on the jersey's left sleeve, replacing the separated "N" and "Y" which had appeared on the left and right breast each season since 1903 with the exception of 1905. For that season only, the "N" and "Y" were merged side by side into a monogram on the left breast actually a forerunner of the now legendary emblem.

The Knicks used the same NY, which didn't really belong to the Yankees at all (at least not when used by someone other than a competing baseball team).

[Gothamite]

The Yankees do own that logo.

I've seen the Louis B. Tiffany medal - it's not the same at all, except the basic orientation of a Y interlocked with the crossbar of an N.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

As much as I like the Knicks' subway token alt logo, I much preferred the Yankees NY they used. I hope they ditch the checkerboard throwbacks this season for the Ewing jerseys from the 80's.

[Mac the Knife]

The wishbone "C" is in the public domain. I know that because I had a lawyer research it years ago when one of my softball teams, the Carolina Colts, intended to use it for their caps.

The letters "StL" are public domain, but I can't speak to the Cardinals "StL" design.

The concept of interlocking "NY" in and of itself is public domain, but the Yankees and Giants styles of interlocking are both MLB's intellectual property.

I can't speak to the Brooklyn/Boston connection, as I've never looked at the designs that closely.

[FiddySicks]

As for the "St.L", I can't imagine that it's in the public domain.

Accually, thats incorrect. Its a common misconception that the logo reads St. Louis, but its accually not St.L, its SLT, for St. Louis Team.

[STL FANATIC]

As for the "St.L", I can't imagine that it's in the public domain.

Accually, thats incorrect. Its a common misconception that the logo reads St. Louis, but its accually not St.L, its SLT, for St. Louis Team.

What now? I've never heard that before.

[SabreGuy]

As for the "St.L", I can't imagine that it's in the public domain.

Accually, thats incorrect. Its a common misconception that the logo reads St. Louis, but its accually not St.L, its SLT, for St. Louis Team.

I'm not saying I don't believe you, but... that seems highly unlikely. Do you have a citation for that? I've been looking for one, but can't find it.

[leopard88]

As for the "St.L", I can't imagine that it's in the public domain.

Accually, thats incorrect. Its a common misconception that the logo reads St. Louis, but its accually not St.L, its SLT, for St. Louis Team.

I'm not saying you're wrong because I can't prove otherwise, but do you have any backup for this? I've never heard that and it doesn't add up for me, since the T is so much smaller than the other letters.

EDIT -- Great minds obviously think alike, SabreGuy. Yours just types 1.5 minutes faster.

[winghaz]

About the wishbone C ...

The Cincinnati Reds went with a more rounded C in the early 1960s (look at the uniforms they wore for the 1961 World Series) while the Cleveland Indians wore the wisbone C at that time. That was when I was in my first years of following baseball, so I've always associated the wishbone C more with Cleveland than Cincinnati.

[cranium]

Then there's the Chicago Bears....

As for the "St.L", I can't imagine that it's in the public domain.  The Browns used various versions throughout their history, borrowing the Cards' logo only briefly.

Here is a pic of the different stl's on Browns hats. I do like the older one on Hornsby just because it is more distinctive from the Cards stl.

[Gothamite]

About the wishbone C ...

The Cincinnati Reds went with a more rounded C in the early 1960s (look at the uniforms they wore for the 1961 World Series) while the Cleveland Indians wore the wisbone C at that time. That was when I was in my first years of following baseball, so I've always associated the wishbone C more with Cleveland than Cincinnati.

True, but the Reds started it.

The Reds wore the wishbone C at least as early as 1913:

The Indians first used it twenty years later, in 1933:

The year after that, in 1934, the Reds adopted the wishbone C as their cap logo.

[FiddySicks]

As for the "St.L", I can't imagine that it's in the public domain.

Accually, thats incorrect. Its a common misconception that the logo reads St. Louis, but its accually not St.L, its SLT, for St. Louis Team.

I'm not saying you're wrong because I can't prove otherwise, but do you have any backup for this? I've never heard that and it doesn't add up for me, since the T is so much smaller than the other letters.

EDIT -- Great minds obviously think alike, SabreGuy. Yours just types 1.5 minutes faster.

My dad told me that. He was at a Browns game WAAAAAAAAY back in hte day when he was a kid and a player told him that. Ive never looked it up though, I never really questioned it.

[Gothamite]

My dad told me that. He was at a Browns game WAAAAAAAAY back in hte day when he was a kid and a player told him that. Ive never looked it up though, I never really questioned it.

You probably should have.