House Cleaning Complete

[Mac the Knife]

New managing general partner. New general manager. Now a new field manager for 2008.

Dare I dream?

[DEAD!]

New managing general partner. New general manager. Now a new field manager for 2008.

Dare I dream?

What else is there to do?

[PeytonManningRocks]

The house is cleaned...

...and yet still a mess.

[CS85]

Maybe the outhouse is cleaned up. The Pirates haven't really had much in the way of an actual house to fool around with in a while.

[Maz]

Yeah, the managing sucks and (might) be getting fixed.....but we still need players...badly.

Note to Pirates' new front office core:

1. Hire a manger who's done something in his past city, has leadership, and isn't on the verge of retiring

2. Spend some money on some damn players and not fireworks shows, bobbleheads, mini statues, hats, replica jerseys, live postgame concerts, etc, etc.. Small-market syndrome is a myth in this city, we can spend just as much money on players as any other big name market. Pirates fans want winners, were tired of you using giveaways to make up for it.

In short, the house is cleaned, but its time to evict the tennants.

[BBTV]

Yeah, the managing sucks and (might) be getting fixed.....but we still need players...badly.

Note to Pirates' new front office core:

1. Hire a manger who's done something in his past city, has leadership, and isn't on the verge of retiring

2. Spend some money on some damn players and not fireworks shows, bobbleheads, mini statues, hats, replica jerseys, live postgame concerts, etc, etc.. Small-market syndrome is a myth in this city, we can spend just as much money on players as any other big name market. Pirates fans want winners, were tired of you using giveaways to make up for it.

In short, the house is cleaned, but its time to evict the tennants.

1. IMO, field-management is one of the most overrated aspects of baseball. There are great managers, and there are awful ones. The rest are all about the same. I haven't seen the Pirates enough (this is the first season in 10 years that I haven't been to a few games) to judge Jim Tracy, but I find it difficult to believe that he was really the problem. The fact that Terry Francona won a WS shows that great management is not required to succeed. Unfortunately I'm a fan of a team that has one of the awful managers

2. That's simply not true. The Pirates are near the bottom of nearly every revenue-ranking list that comes out (no, I don't have a source handy to back this claim up), and market size is simply something they can't change. They'd be wise to adopt an Oakland A's approach to building winning teams on a budget. Or they can get lucky like the Brewers have recently, and get some good young players who aren't yet due for big bucks. The Pirates are my "secret" second-favorite NL team, but I just don't think that any combination of GM / MGR can fix their problems.

[Maz]

Well...

1. The pirates have been signing young "talent" for years now...but they've just about all turned out to be going nowhere or just really good, but still average, guys who get traded to other teams because we supposedly cant afford them anymore...

...which leads to my next point

2. We dont have the largest city or the most money for a city for that matter, but from what I understand money from attendance is probably one of the largest contributions to a team's financial success. We cant draw that without talent. Though we have a small market, I don't believe in small market syndrome. Like I said before, unless there's some rule barring form it, money used for gimmicks could be used to buy players, right? If so, then consider how much money it must cost to get over 10 bobble head/mini statue nights, replica jerseys, hats, or most of all, fireworks shows and live postgame performances... especially the three-night Skyblast special. Perhaps someone with more understanding in MLB business could clarify, but i see no reason money cant be diverted form that to getting talent. Pittsburgh fans don't care about gimmicks. Steelers games don't have gimmicks, yet they still sell out, simply because the fans go there to see the team. Same goes for the penguins. They don't have near as many giveaway nights as the pirates do (yes, they have half the home games, but its still considerably less relatively), yet they fill the igloo almost every night because people want to see the young talent.

Im not saying we dont have a small market, but im saying the front office has to stop using that as an excuse and calling it small market syndrome.

And after the horrible scouts weve had these past years, I dont think anyone would be too hot for the idea of relying on young talent like weve had the past 15 years. Even if we were to get a good young core, we'd still need some current talent, some experience and leadership. As evidenced by the Penguins in their playoff run last year, they only lost because of lack of experience.

[BBTV]

from what I understand money from attendance is probably one of the largest contributions to a team's financial success. We cant draw that without talent. Though we have a small market, I don't believe in small market syndrome.

This is where I think you are totally incorrect. If this was the case, the Red Sox would be screwed because they have the smallest park. Suites, TV, radio, and other media-market-size based factors are what gives teams the money to go nuts. They could sell all the tickets they want, and it just wouldn't matter. I think that the only sport where ticket sales really is that big of a deal anymore is the NHL.

[Maz]

Even so...

The pirates are rarely if at all shown on national TV. Why? Because what national network would want to show a team like the pirates? The only reason we went national this year was because of Barry Bonds. Also, the Pirates have plenty of suites. You aren't going to get media until you do well. When did you ever see the penguins have anything but some highlights on a national scale during the 03/04 season aside form games against already good teams or an injury to Mario Lemieux?

[BBTV]

They could be shown on national TV all they want, and it wouldn't matter. In fact, it may actually hurt them, because while they'd get a cut from the network (I'm not really sure how that works) they wouldn't get their piece of the local ad sales. Besides that, who's to say they'd be on TV that much? TV is based on ratings, which is really market-size driven. Up until the playoffs, how much were the Rockies on national TV? And they're a pretty darn good team, and very exciting to watch.

The teams that have the most money are the ones that either have their own TV network, have ridiculous stadium deals, or rake in tons from ad sales and sponsorship deals. The thing hurting smaller market clubs is (and this is not based on actual research or facts, just what I would suppose to be the case) that teams like the Pirates and Royals (just to pick two) can't charge as much for game coverage and ad sales, and probably can't charge as much for suites as teams like NY, Chicago, and LA. But they have to pay the same price for players as those clubs.

The Phillies and A's are living proof that market size doesn't directly equal success - but it is a huge factor.

[Maz]

Still, that only further proves that you have to spend money to make money.

[jrh31584]

So, how long before someone posts the article from The Onion in which PNC Park threatens to leave Pittsburgh unless it is given a better team?

[HedleyLamarr]

New managing general partner. New general manager. Now a new field manager for 2008.

Dare I dream?

There are a couple few folks from St. Louis who might need employment....

[Mac the Knife]

Yeah, the managing sucks and (might) be getting fixed.....but we still need players...badly.

Note to Pirates' new front office core:

1. Hire a manger who's done something in his past city, has leadership, and isn't on the verge of retiring

2. Spend some money on some damn players and not fireworks shows, bobbleheads, mini statues, hats, replica jerseys, live postgame concerts, etc, etc.. Small-market syndrome is a myth in this city, we can spend just as much money on players as any other big name market. Pirates fans want winners, were tired of you using giveaways to make up for it.

In short, the house is cleaned, but its time to evict the tennants.

Small market syndrome isn't a myth, but it doesn't help when your MGP (McClatchy, not Nutting) makes it team policy to pocket revenue-sharing money as opposed to spending it on talent. And it really doesn't help when the 'talent' it acquires is somewhat dubious in terms of its ability to help the ballclub.

[hormone]

My friend knows Leyland and he said when they were looking for an mgr before the Detroit job, they never even offered it to him again and he said he would have loved to stay in the area...I wonder how hiring Jim and a ton of former Bucs worked out for Detroit...

Look at Jim Tracy. He couldn't win in LA where they spend money and have talent. What made them think he'd win in this dump? It has to start with ownership first. They have to hire a good GM and give them the money to get good players. Then with good players, you get the coach. Then with all the above, you get the wins. If not, you're going to have another 90 loss season...again. We have officially entered year 15 of the 5 year plan now.

[Mac the Knife]

My friend knows Leyland and he said when they were looking for an mgr before the Detroit job, they never even offered it to him again and he said he would have loved to stay in the area...I wonder how hiring Jim and a ton of former Bucs worked out for Detroit...

Look at Jim Tracy. He couldn't win in LA where they spend money and have talent. What made them think he'd win in this dump? It has to start with ownership first. They have to hire a good GM and give them the money to get good players. Then with good players, you get the coach. Then with all the above, you get the wins. If not, you're going to have another 90 loss season...again. We have officially entered year 15 of the 5 year plan now.

Well that's something that most casual baseball fans don't grasp - there has been a change in the ownership of the team. Kevin McClatchy, who had served as Managing General Partner and de-facto chief of the team, got shoved out by Robert Nutting, who owned more of the team, and the other partners. Essentially Nutting got tired of being approached by people asking him why he'd associate himself with such a loser, got pissed about it, and has decided to do something about it.

The results won't be immediate, but hopefully there will be positive results.

I'dve loved to see Leyland in charge again, but now I'm hoping that the Bucs can land someone who can provide an immediate jump-start, such as a Buck Showalter or Joe Girardi. Not necessarily a guy that'll propel them into the division title chase every year, but a manager who when you hear the name you don't go, "WTF?"

[Luigi74]

My friend knows Leyland and he said when they were looking for an mgr before the Detroit job, they never even offered it to him again and he said he would have loved to stay in the area...I wonder how hiring Jim and a ton of former Bucs worked out for Detroit...

Look at Jim Tracy. He couldn't win in LA where they spend money and have talent. What made them think he'd win in this dump? It has to start with ownership first. They have to hire a good GM and give them the money to get good players. Then with good players, you get the coach. Then with all the above, you get the wins. If not, you're going to have another 90 loss season...again. We have officially entered year 15 of the 5 year plan now.

Well that's something that most casual baseball fans don't grasp - there has been a change in the ownership of the team. Kevin McClatchy, who had served as Managing General Partner and de-facto chief of the team, got shoved out by Robert Nutting, who owned more of the team, and the other partners. Essentially Nutting got tired of being approached by people asking him why he'd associate himself with such a loser, got pissed about it, and has decided to do something about it.

The results won't be immediate, but hopefully there will be positive results.

I'dve loved to see Leyland in charge again, but now I'm hoping that the Bucs can land someone who can provide an immediate jump-start, such as a Buck Showalter or Joe Girardi. Not necessarily a guy that'll propel them into the division title chase every year, but a manager who when you hear the name you don't go, "WTF?"

Kevin McClatchy was the major problem he bought the team with the plan of moving it to Sacermento but he got the stadium deal he never thought he would get so he did the "we can't win in a small market" b.s. so he could sit back and collect the checks from MLB.

[marlinfan]

Like I said before, unless there's some rule barring form it, money used for gimmicks could be used to buy players, right? If so, then consider how much money it must cost to get over 10 bobble head/mini statue nights, replica jerseys, hats, or most of all, fireworks shows and live postgame performances... especially the three-night Skyblast special. Perhaps someone with more understanding in MLB business could clarify, but i see no reason money cant be diverted form that to getting talent.

Professional teams pay very little or none of these expenses. Sponsors, in exchange for rights, pay these expenses.

Even if teams paid all of these expenses, they don't equal 10, 20, 30 million dollars in costs. If they did, teams wouldn't even bother.

As of a few years ago, 44% of the average ML team's revenues came from media rights. Considering the Pirates play in such a small market I can imagine that number is lower. The more a team depends on its stadium revenues the more they are at a disadvantage.

True you must actually spend money to increase revenues, but the ceiling for the Pirates is not what it is for a team like a Philadelphia. My best guess for what the Pirates' ceiling on spending is when they are at maximum efficiency as a business (winning, selling tickets, suites, club seats) is $80 maybe 85 million. San Diego is probably the most similar to Pittsburgh in terms of what the Pirates can and cannot do.

[tBBP]

My friend knows Leyland and he said when they were looking for an mgr before the Detroit job, they never even offered it to him again and he said he would have loved to stay in the area...I wonder how hiring Jim and a ton of former Bucs worked out for Detroit...

Look at Jim Tracy. He couldn't win in LA where they spend money and have talent. What made them think he'd win in this dump? It has to start with ownership first. They have to hire a good GM and give them the money to get good players. Then with good players, you get the coach. Then with all the above, you get the wins. If not, you're going to have another 90 loss season...again. We have officially entered year 15 of the 5 year plan now.

Well that's something that most casual baseball fans don't grasp - there has been a change in the ownership of the team. Kevin McClatchy, who had served as Managing General Partner and de-facto chief of the team, got shoved out by Robert Nutting, who owned more of the team, and the other partners. Essentially Nutting got tired of being approached by people asking him why he'd associate himself with such a loser, got pissed about it, and has decided to do something about it.

The results won't be immediate, but hopefully there will be positive results.

I'dve loved to see Leyland in charge again, but now I'm hoping that the Bucs can land someone who can provide an immediate jump-start, such as a Buck Showalter or Joe Girardi. Not necessarily a guy that'll propel them into the division title chase every year, but a manager who when you hear the name you don't go, "WTF?"

Joe Torre, maybe?

I hear he may be out of a job soon.

Too soon???

[zoneranger]

Obviously, something needs to be done in Pittsburgh. But, unfortunately, these guys that are getting the axe (Kevin McClatchy, Jim Tracey, etc.) never played an inning of baseball, never drove in a run and never pitched an inning for the Bucs.

IMO, the Pirates need a leader,(among other things) someone like Stargell or Clemente was for the 60's and 70's Bucs. But unfortunately, once again, no one ever sticks around that long in Pittsburgh to step up to the plate and take on that role.

Finally, I would have loved to se Jim Leyland come back to Pittsburgh, but don't hold your breath.

How about Kenny Macha ot Art Howe, both former Bucs with some experience with winning with a low payroll club.

Just some thoughts...