Thanks Art!

[quantum]

Hate to say it... but seeing fans of the Packers and Cubs telling Browns fans to "get over it" is sending my hypocrisy alarm into overdrive.

Could you imaging the riots in Green Bay and Chicago if either one of those teams tried to move?

The difference as far as Packer fans go is they have their priorities straight. When it comes to public funding, the Packers would always win out over any other sport or project. Cleveland can't say the same. Both the Bucks and the Brewers could threaten to leave the state and the locals would call their bluff. A threat by the Pack would be taken much more seriously.

Good point... those morons in Cleveland and Milwaukee would rather spend their money on frivolous things like education and city matinence. The hell are they/we thinking?

I think you know I was referring to Cleveland's favoritism of basketball and the RnR HoF over football. Wisconsin citizens have a choice of buying Packer license plates to fund team projects because they are the state's team. The Bucks and Brewers get shafted because they belong to Milwaukee only (mindset-wise, anyway). Bottom line is, the Bucks and Brewers could leave and most people wouldn't care.

Do you really believe that?? If so, just stop talking on the subject before you say something that embarrasses my intelligence.

Thanks.

Go Tribe!

Football is king, and the Cleveland city government should have stepped up and become part of the solution instead of the problem. Football pulls in more cash than other sports/event projects. The other sports/projects are fine, but failing to deliver a solution from all parties involves risk. Cleveland lost its team and suffered unnecessarily. The fact is they did fund the other "diversions", and coming up short for a new facility for the Browns normally would have been a huge mistake. The fact that Cleveland was given preferential treatment unlike any other city in a similar situation saved fans like yourself from having something legitimate to bitch about. Of course, if you truly believe the city didn't favor those other projects, then who is fooling who?

[DrBear]

The real problem was that the new owners, unlike Perini, knew something about TV markets, and for that, Milwaukee sucks. Somebody described the Brewers' TV market as "Chicago to the south, Lake Michigan to the east, Minneapolis-St. Paul to the west, and a lot of deer and bears to the north."

I think the social geography of Wisconsin has as much lot to do with that as anything. In theory, Green Bay and Madison should also be considered the Brewers market (giving it a share roughly the size of the Twin Cities). But people in other parts of Wisconsin are reluctant to support Milwaukee teams the way they do with the Packers and Badgers... at least til they make a run at a title (see: Brewers 1982, Bucks 2001, Marquette 2003, UWM 2005).

I'd disagree with that, at least with the Brewers, although there is still a lot of leftover Cubs love up here. It's notable that the Brewers' bad years have coincided with good Packers years recently and 1982, the only Brewer pennant winner, was during an NFL strike. Marquette and UWM are never going to get the statewide support Wisconsin does, admittedly, Marquette is seen as a city school and the state's Notre Dame (and it doesn't play basketball) and upstate doesn't back UWM for the same reason Milwaukee doesn't back UWGB. As for the Bucks, they do NO promotion outside Milwaukee except for one exhibition game a year in Green Bay and La Crosse (and they have had long gaps in both cities...in fact, I don't think they're playing in Madison this year, and they used to play regular season games there.) And speaking as a former sports editor, the PR staff of the Bucks is awful; they treat out of town writers from Wisconsin like we're a bunch of autograph seeking fans, rather than professionals; they are very angry when you try to do some actual reporting, but they don't pull the same crap on the Journal Sentinel writers who are there every day. They've decided they can live without drawing people from outside Milwaukee.

[DrBear]

As for the Browns - Modell's gripe was with the city, not the fans, but it was the fans who were punished. It's that simple. Had the fans not supported the team, it would have been understandable.

[Mac the Knife]

Double post... might as well use it for something relevant to the topic.

When the US economy gets passed up by China and people are looking for somewhere to point fingers, I'll direct them towards Modell. Our kids might have gotten sh**ty educations in our public schools, but at least our privately owned pro sports fracnhises had shiny new facilities every 20 years!!!

Art Modell as the impetus behind the downfall of American Society?

Wow.

That's going a little farther than I did in my hatred of that a$$hole, but hey, I like it!

[Eye]

Apparently, the Babe Ruth Museum and the Baltimore Ravens are having a celebration of Art Modell, and they made a logo for it.

Thanks Art!

That doesnt bother me. It just makes Baltimore and whatever organization that is from look like even bigger asses than they already do by embracing this guy the way they have after deriding Irsay for all those years.

Can you say hypocrites???

If thats what they want to do, go for it. He's your problem now.

Go Tribe!

Far be it from me to hijack this thread, but I don't remember Art Modell packing up some Mayflower moving trucks and stealing away in the middle of the night for parts unknown.

Well, both guys are douchebags and both teams probably shouldn't have been moved in the first place. I think what anyone has learned is that under the right (or wrong) set of circumstances, any team can move at any time. However, when the Colts were going to play the Ravens last year in the playoffs, Baltimore copped this woe is me attitude and that really got on my nerves. Regardless of the history staying in Cleveland, they took another city's team which is the same thing that ws done to them years before. Hypocrites.

This logo sucks by the way. It comes off as uncentered and the "Of" throws off the typeface due to the fact that it has the only lowercase letter around the circle.

[KDubK414]

To Gothamite and iilwauk. I apologize!!! I know you guys are for real, and just got upset over the whole "get over it" thing!

Gothamite I am sorry that I mistook your avatar for being a Mets one You had Brew Crew for so long that it shocked me to se an NY. It just seemed so out of place considering.

illwauk, I am sorry bout the harsh feelings. You probably know as well as I do about our kin!!!

Take it easy guys!

Kyle

[Mac the Knife]

Well, both guys are douchebags and both teams probably shouldn't have been moved in the first place. I think what anyone has learned is that under the right (or wrong) set of circumstances, any team can move at any time. However, when the Colts were going to play the Ravens last year in the playoffs, Baltimore copped this woe is me attitude and that really got on my nerves. Regardless of the history staying in Cleveland, they took another city's team which is the same thing that ws done to them years before. Hypocrites.

Okay... calling people douchebags based on their opinions is a little over the top. While I agree with you regarding the Browns/Colts moves, I can't support your insult. They're entitled to their opinions, no matter how misguided they may be.

Should the Colts have left Baltimore? No, but only because Irsay didn't give the city of Baltimore and state of Maryland sufficient time to work out a new stadium deal. Had he given them another year or so, he'd likely have gotten everything he wanted.

Should the Browns have left Cleveland? No, but only because they should have been sold to a businessman that remotely resembles competent. Anyone who studies Art Modell in depth will learn that the man is somewhere between an incompetent businessman and an outright fraud. Had he not been so incompetent the Browns would've stayed put.

[Burning River]

I think it was meant to read that Modell and Irsay are douchebags.. (sez whaaa...?)

[Eye]

Well, both guys are douchebags and both teams probably shouldn't have been moved in the first place. I think what anyone has learned is that under the right (or wrong) set of circumstances, any team can move at any time. However, when the Colts were going to play the Ravens last year in the playoffs, Baltimore copped this woe is me attitude and that really got on my nerves. Regardless of the history staying in Cleveland, they took another city's team which is the same thing that ws done to them years before. Hypocrites.

Okay... calling people douchebags based on their opinions is a little over the top.

No, no, Mac. I am not calling anyone on this board a douchebag. I quoted the posts before mine because they mentioned Modell and Irsay and that made it easier to criticize them (Modell and Irsay.) I am calling Modell and Irsay douchebags because they screwed over copious amounts of people.

[leopard88]

However, when the Colts were going to play the Ravens last year in the playoffs, Baltimore copped this woe is me attitude and that really got on my nerves.

Being a resident of the Baltimore area and old enough to have been a Colts fan (I was 16 when they moved), I'm going to have disagree with you on this. I don't recall any "woe is me" attitude before the playoff game. To the contrary, the attitude was "let's stick it to Little Jimmy Irsay and company and put this thing to rest once and for all" (unfortunately, it didn't work out that way). Most people around here, excluding the real oldtimers, have moved on since Baltimore has a team now, though no one is above sticking it to Indy when the chance exists.

By the way, I don't know if this equals salt in the wounds, but this morning's Baltimore Sun reported that Jim Brown will be attending the festivities next week.

[leedsunited]

Well, both guys are douchebags and both teams probably shouldn't have been moved in the first place. I think what anyone has learned is that under the right (or wrong) set of circumstances, any team can move at any time. However, when the Colts were going to play the Ravens last year in the playoffs, Baltimore copped this woe is me attitude and that really got on my nerves. Regardless of the history staying in Cleveland, they took another city's team which is the same thing that ws done to them years before. Hypocrites.

Okay... calling people douchebags based on their opinions is a little over the top. While I agree with you regarding the Browns/Colts moves, I can't support your insult. They're entitled to their opinions, no matter how misguided they may be.

Should the Colts have left Baltimore? No, but only because Irsay didn't give the city of Baltimore and state of Maryland sufficient time to work out a new stadium deal. Had he given them another year or so, he'd likely have gotten everything he wanted.

Should the Browns have left Cleveland? No, but only because they should have been sold to a businessman that remotely resembles competent. Anyone who studies Art Modell in depth will learn that the man is somewhere between an incompetent businessman and an outright fraud. Had he not been so incompetent the Browns would've stayed put.

Art Modell also ushered in the massive television contract, its original largesse still enjoyed to this day by each and every owner of an NFL franchise. Like him or not for his move, but I really don't think you can call the guy an "incompetent business" nor an "outright fraud". He undoubtedly stands alongside George Halas and Lamar Hunt in terms of lasting legacy for NFL ownership.

[Gothamite]

No.

Not even close.

Yes, he helped negotiate some of the television contracts. He was on the periphery of lots of important decisions. But was he the one who insisted that the television revenue be distributed equally among the clubs, which is far more important than the contracts themselves?

Wellington Mara belongs in that company. Modell does not.

[leedsunited]

No.

Not even close.

Yes, he helped negotiate some of the television contracts. He was on the periphery of lots of important decisions. But was he the one who insisted that the television revenue be distributed equally among the clubs, which is far more important than the contracts themselves?

Wellington Mara belongs in that company. Modell does not.

Of course Mara should be there. But not Modell? The man was a founding father of the modern NFL - no matter what history tries to rewrite on the basis of his move.

[TFoA]

Think about we have tons to be bitter about. Many of the plays that are used on those copywrite messages from the pro leagues involve infamous Cleveland losses- Willie Mays over the shoulder catch (Vic Wertz' shot would have been out of any other major league ballpark damn Polo Grounds), Jordan's shot over Ehlo, The Drive, The Fumble, Mesa blowing the '97 World Series.

If you had to endure all of that then have LeBron wear a Yankess hat at an Indians game you'd be pissed as well!!!!!

Awesome. A complete history of Cleveland sports, all summarized in one post. Simply awesome.

[Gothamite]

No.

Not even close.

Yes, he helped negotiate some of the television contracts. He was on the periphery of lots of important decisions. But was he the one who insisted that the television revenue be distributed equally among the clubs, which is far more important than the contracts themselves?

Wellington Mara belongs in that company. Modell does not.

Of course Mara should be there. But not Modell? The man was a founding father of the modern NFL - no matter what history tries to rewrite on the basis of his move.

His contributions are extremely important. I think he's a scumbag, but I cannot debate his contributions to the sport. Halas-level important, however? Hunt-level? Nope.

Rozelle was the #1 man there - Modell was his lieutenant for all those innovations. I can't even put Curly Lambeau with them in terms of shaping the NFL, and I love the man.

[Mac the Knife]

Well, both guys are douchebags and both teams probably shouldn't have been moved in the first place. I think what anyone has learned is that under the right (or wrong) set of circumstances, any team can move at any time. However, when the Colts were going to play the Ravens last year in the playoffs, Baltimore copped this woe is me attitude and that really got on my nerves. Regardless of the history staying in Cleveland, they took another city's team which is the same thing that ws done to them years before. Hypocrites.

Okay... calling people douchebags based on their opinions is a little over the top.

No, no, Mac. I am not calling anyone on this board a douchebag. I quoted the posts before mine because they mentioned Modell and Irsay and that made it easier to criticize them (Modell and Irsay.) I am calling Modell and Irsay douchebags because they screwed over copious amounts of people.

I stand corrected and 5'9", sir. Okay, so we're in complete agreement as Modell and Irsay were, in fact, douchebags.

[Mac the Knife]

Art Modell also ushered in the massive television contract, its original largesse still enjoyed to this day by each and every owner of an NFL franchise. Like him or not for his move, but I really don't think you can call the guy an "incompetent business" nor an "outright fraud". He undoubtedly stands alongside George Halas and Lamar Hunt in terms of lasting legacy for NFL ownership.

Art Modell had as much to do with the NFL's massive television contracts as I did. The impetus behind the NFL's TV deals was that of one Alvin Ray "Pete" Rozelle. Modell was admittedly in the room, but he, like most NFL owners, was in the periphery when it came to negotiations.

Stands alongside George Halas and Lamar Hunt? Are you serious? Modell couldn't hold either one's jock to use an on-field metaphor. The only time Modell will have anything other than being an NFL owner in common with Halas and Hunt is when Modell finally drops dead.

[Mac the Knife]

Of course Mara should be there. But not Modell? The man was a founding father of the modern NFL - no matter what history tries to rewrite on the basis of his move.

Leeds, do some reading, both on Modell and other NFL owners of his time. Modell got a lot of pub as a front man, but in reality was barely involved in the things he's since been credited with. His stature in those areas increased as the others who were actually involved left the league due to death, selling their franchises, etc.

NFL historians re-wrote Modell as something of a saint, only to have him turn sinner by moving the Browns. Stuck with the image they created they've attempted since to downplay it, but have been unable to erase it.

[Gothamite]

Bingo.

[Gothamite]

Bingo.