Nfl 2005 Expansion?

[fiasco!]

...Which brings up yet another reason:  The Bills and Lions think of Ontario as their territory.  They would demand compensation....

I wouldn't think the Lions would, they're quite a ways from Toronto... a 5 hour drive, I believe... Buffalo would have a case, being only about 90 mins away.

i've made it to toronto from detroit in 3.5 hours.

[Guest gdffl]

WIB,

How many more sellouts can you have than 8 of 8? which is what we had this year with a team that played well below expectations.

I would hate to see the CFL bite the dust, they've always been there for me around July when I can't take it anymore and need a football fix. It's always gotten me through until the Bills Exhibition season starts in August. Forget Arena Football, they may as well call it "Foosketball" since teams score everytime down the field, there is less drama about whether a team will score than there is in an NBA game.

[yh]

NFL expansion may hinge on whether they get their underclassmen policy reinstated. If the policy is not reinstated and underclassmen start coming out AND thriving (a big if), then there might be support for an additional 2-4 teams so long as all markets are stable. And while I can appreciate all of the logic and thought that has gone into the Toronto debate, the bottom line is going to come down to whether a potential owner of a Toronto team has enough money and friends in both the NFL and the Canadian government to put a team there. The factors that go into NFL expansion are not as complicated as we'd like (and hope) to think they are. It's all about ownership. In 1993, St. Louis and Charlotte were the clear favorites in the expansion derby. Everyone (including Wayne Weaver) knew it. Weaver was even quoted as saying "we all know it's St. Louis and Charlotte - look at the numbers," but the problem was that the St. Louis ownership group were a bunch of disorganized jackasses who didn't have their ducks in a row when they went to make their final pitch. Weaver stuck to it, made some buddies within the ownership ranks and wound up with the Jags at the end of the day. The NFL is a big ol' boys club and things like logic and market factors are relevant, but not controlling.

If it was my league to run, I'd keep all the teams where they're at now with the exception of the Jets whom I would like to see back in NYC. I'd add Toronto to the AFC East, San Antonio to the AFC South, Birmingham to the NFC South and LA to the NFC West, transferring St. Louis to the NFC East.

[winters in buffalo]

WIB,

How many more sellouts can you have than 8 of 8? which is what we had this year with a team that played well below expectations.

I would hate to see the CFL bite the dust, they've always been there for me around July when I can't take it anymore and need a football fix. It's always gotten me through until the Bills Exhibition season starts in August. Forget Arena Football, they may as well call it "Foosketball" since teams score everytime down the field, there is less drama about whether a team will score than there is in an NBA game.

I wasn't referring to any specific year, just making a statement about sellouts in general. The team doesn't sell out every game, every year, and I know for a fact that there's always at least a game or two a year that's sold-out at the last minute because some local company buys up a block of the remaining tickets, and usually gives them away.

My point was, that having such a close rival would fill more seats.

[Guest Canuck Dude]

I am from TO and it is a lame sports city. You can hear a pin drop when you are at a Leafs game becuase the real fans could not afford to go to a game.

Most people in this city are not NFL fans. There are more people in the pubs watching World Cup Soccer then there are watching any Super Bowl. Great real about that game. Most people talked about the JJ and JL crap than anything else whcih is too bad because I heard that is was a good game.

The NFL would cost too much for the fans to go the games. Look at the Jays and how much they cost to go to a game and they have 80 plus games to go to in a season. The NFL has 8 home games. The NFL has a mimimun stadium capacity for a new team and the Skydome doesn't even come close. The Skydome is a terrible venue for anything thing.

The Rock and the Raptors are the only games in town where the fans really get into the event. The corporations have taken them over as much. Also the fan can still buy tickets for the Raps for now.

Also the CDN$ is lower and you have to play the NFL in US$ for the franchise and the players. Who in To has the money to lose in the first few seasons for a NFL franchise? The shareholders in Rogers are not willing to lose more money. It is pure economics and TO isn't that interesting in the US market. The yanks do not care that much.

[CC97]

I am from TO and it is a lame sports city. You can hear a pin drop when you are at a Leafs game becuase the real fans could not afford to go to a game.

Most people in this city are not NFL fans. There are more people in the pubs watching World Cup Soccer then there are watching any Super Bowl. Great real about that game. Most people talked about the JJ and JL crap than anything else whcih is too bad because I heard that is was a good game.

The NFL would cost too much for the fans to go the games. Look at the Jays and how much they cost to go to a game and they have 80 plus games to go to in a season. The NFL has 8 home games. The NFL has a mimimun stadium capacity for a new team and the Skydome doesn't even come close. The Skydome is a terrible venue for anything thing.

The Rock and the Raptors are the only games in town where the fans really get into the event. The corporations have taken them over as much. Also the fan can still buy tickets for the Raps for now.

Also the CDN$ is lower and you have to play the NFL in US$ for the franchise and the players. Who in To has the money to lose in the first few seasons for a NFL franchise? The shareholders in Rogers are not willing to lose more money. It is pure economics and TO isn't that interesting in the US market. The yanks do not care that much.

Exactly, crowds are quiet because the 'real' fans can't get in.

Did anybody watch Conan when he was in Toronto? hear how loud the crowd was all the time?

You are wrong about the NFL fans in the city comment, the city is full of NFL fans! Read any of the newspaper's sports sections on a sunday and it's almost completely NFL. Heck at my college they have NFL parties every Sunday where students get together and watch the games, as well as field trips to Buffalo, Indianapolis, Detroit, etc. to see NFL Football. Look around the city and you'll see lots of people wearing Bills, Dolphins, Cowboys, 49ers, etc. merchandise.

The SkyDome is a decent facility for sports, what more do you want? It's a great place to watch baseball, it's a great place to watch football... it sucked when the Raptors played there, but it can't be great for everything.

Last word from Rogers was that they were very interested in bringing an NFL team to Toronto, as well as purchasing, and renovating the SkyDome (ready for Rogers Stadium? it's coming soon).

The NFL has 8 home games per season, there would be absolutely no problem at all to fill the 'Dome for 8 NFL games a year.

[Puckguy14]

The one thing that's always going to get in the way is a stadium in Los Angeles. When I worked with the Demons in the XFL, the Coliseum was a dump. The locker rooms were next door to each other and are as small as a locker room in a local hockey rink. This was also fun because there were pushing and shoving as the teams were intro'd. Hollywood Park fell through. I've even heard of tearing down the Great Western Forum and putting it there. The Coliseum is in too bad of shape to get renovated.

If the Chargers get a new stadium, they're staying. Cardinals aren't going anywhere with a new stadium and a Super Bowl coming in a few years. The only teams that could move are:

>Indianapolis Colts

>Oakland Raiders

>San Francisco 49ers.

Yes, I said my beloved 49ers. There is a rift between fans and "owner" John York. The bond money to build then-owner Eddie DeBartolo's stadium-mall project expires January 1, 2005. The Yorks through their spokesperson have said they want the team in a "financially, feasable stadium." The frustration was at a high point during Ronnie Lott's retirement ceremony when Lott put an arm around Eddie D and said "we all know where the love is" and then said we must pass the torch to the Yorks, with that the entire crowd had an emphatic boo to that idea.

The team was supposed to have the stadium built and finished in 2000 in order to have Super Bowl XXXVI held in 2002. The Yorks have refused to start on a stadium, nor have they made any attempt to do anything to Candlestick. So don't be suprised if the 49ers do the unthinkable.

[JQK]

Would you support a Toronto NFL franchise, Chris, if it ment the collapse of the CFL? (hypethetical)

[CC97]

Would you support a Toronto NFL franchise, Chris, if it ment the collapse of the CFL? (hypethetical)

Oooh, tough question.

Personally I don't think the CFL would collapse (i think the Argos might -> although they are getting a brand-new, more intimate stadium).

But if the CFL said they were for-sure folding up shop because the NFL would come to Canada then I wouldn't support it.

[habsfannova]

From my expierience, SkyDome is a great place to watch a game.

BUT....

It's not an NFL stadium. It could serve as an temp stadium, but so many other groups in other US cities will build a better stadium on a drop of a hat for an NFL team.

If it is rennovated, and the government can be convinced, I'd support it full-heartedly. It would be very expensive to buy tickets, though.

My biggest fear is for my CFL. I like watching an NFL game as much as a CFL one, and IT WILL hurt ratings.

[amare32]

Rumors of an NFL franchise in Arizona are entirely unfounded.

[DEAD!]

If Toronto is ever going to get an NFL team, they have to have a NEW stadium. Skydome's capacity is too small compared to other stadiums in the NFL. And we all know the Canadian Government will NOT put in funds in a new stadium unless, say an event like the Olympics were awarded to Toronto.

Say, can anyone think of a name of a possible Toronto franchise? I suggest Trojans!

As for the Argos, Varsity is where they should go! The Argos are the oldest franchise in Canada. Although the Hamiltion Tiger-Cats came about as a merger of two teams. One of them, the Tigers, were established in 1869, four years before the Argos. And had the Ottawa Rough Riders did not fold, they would have been the oldest franchise in Canada.

[JQK]

Rumors of an NFL franchise in Arizona are entirely unfounded.

One of the best lines i've ever read....

[Phil]

Most of Canada would be very much against a Toronto NFL franchise, for the simple reason that they don't support the Argos, so they don't deserve anything better. You've heard it from habsfannova, GMac, among others, and now you'll hear the same from me.

Owners been alienating the fans? I don't care how bad the owners are, with the GTA being at least 10 times the size of other CFL markets, you should be able to scrape together 25K in fans/game. No facility complaints either... ever been to Taylor Field? I wouldn't exactly call that an architectural marvel...

I think in part the Toronto sports media have to start respecting the Argos a little more. TSN's increasing CFL presence is a good start, but really... also the CFL needs to put pressure on the Argonauts' ownership to dump a whole pile of money into the marketing budget, and spend it well... not just on one-time stunts like having Muhammad Ali come in (it was cool, yeah, but not much lasting value if you ask me), or on a stupid promoter like they got rid of after the wet T-shirt incident. Market yourself as a legitimate player in the Toronto sports scene... make Argos' gameday a big day in Toronto like it is in 90% of the other markets' cities. Play up the rivalries that exist (you couldn't tailor-make them any better... Ottawa, Hamilton, Montreal... the opportunities are there).

Lastly, I don't think the NFL would be good for sports in Toronto. Yes, I understand that Toronto's a good sports town (despite their problems with the Argos), but another very high-priced entertainment option I think could stretch Toronto beyond what it can support. It already has the Raptors, Blue Jays, and Leafs in top tier leagues.

Some things to consider. I really enjoy both CFL and NFL football, but let's keep the border crossings closed.

[CC97]

Owners been alienating the fans? I don't care how bad the owners are, with the GTA being at least 10 times the size of other CFL markets, you should be able to scrape together 25K in fans/game.

I guess this is one of those cases where people who've never been know more about it than the people who have

[clyon81]

The NFL desperatley wants a team in LA for some reason. After realigning and pretyt much ending any near futur expansion, you would think a move would be the only way. However, lately Tagliabue has said he wouldn't rule out expansion, and that ticks me off.

No offense STL, but am I reading that your UPSET at the idea of expansion? I would think you would be for it, considering that you got a second chance yourself.

I wouldnt mind seein the "NFL" in 4 more cities via expansion the league at once, then go back to "huge divisions" like 3-6 team, or maybe 2-9 team per conference. At 4 more teams, your probably covering close to all the viable markets that could have football. Being the #1 sport in the US right now, I dont see the "dilluting" argument starting, now that players are starting to come from around the world.

To be quite honest, i was SHOCKED when I heard that Houston was getting another franchise. When the oilers left, there seemed to be no love loss between them and the fans.

If LA could sustain two teams at once, and seeing how the NFL gave houston, cleveland, st louis, and baltimore second chances, surely LA should get one too.

As far as Canada having teams, I dont mind it, maybe it would lead to Football being an olympic sport? So long as you guys dont play in domes!

[clyon81]

Lastly, I don't think the NFL would be good for sports in Toronto. Yes, I understand that Toronto's a good sports town (despite their problems with the Argos), but another very high-priced entertainment option I think could stretch Toronto beyond what it can support. It already has the Raptors, Blue Jays, and Leafs in top tier leagues.

I could be wrong, but has there ever been evidence of a city that has good sports fans, but gets "exhausted" by adding another sport? The Argos would last long with the NFL in town. If they support MLB, and the NBA of all things, surely they will support the NFL in droves.

I think the problem here is that some of you guys that dont live in toronto, but still Canada realize the NFL coming into Toronto could very well crush the league. Fans would be demanding for their own franchises, and places like Edmonton probably would never see NFL in their cities.

The more we discuss this, Im starting to think Toronto is almost more important then california getting its 4th team. Id like to see another cold weather town with good fans get a team, then LA. With Toronto in the league, Its automatically a rivalry with 32 other teams, because its not from the US, let alone its proximity to NY area.

Works for me

[Stampman]

The CFL could survive without TO, but it would be a shame to lose all that Argonaut history.

Both the CFL & NFL developed form the same roots, and went the same way in some things-different in others. SO they are different, but similar games--appreciate them both for what they are.

[CC97]

The CFL could survive without TO, but it would be a shame to lose all that Argonaut history.

Both the CFL & NFL developed form the same roots, and went the same way in some things-different in others. SO they are different, but similar games--appreciate them both for what they are.

I actually think the Argos could survive with an NFL team in town... remember the Argos are building that smaller outdoor stadium, that'll be perfect for a CFL team, and if they have really cheap ticket prices they could advertise themselves as the cheaper alternative. Kinda like how the Roadrunners do it (but their tickets are too expensive... $27 for the cheapest seat? i don't think so! Make it $5 and i'm there)

[Slammersman]

If it was my league to run, I'd keep all the teams where they're at now with the exception of the Jets whom I would like to see back in NYC.  I'd add Toronto to the AFC East, San Antonio to the AFC South, Birmingham to the NFC South and LA to the NFC West, transferring St. Louis to the NFC East.

That plan sounds like a good one it has my Birmingham in it. Although i might put St. louis in the NFC North maybe but all others sound good.