2009 MLB Season Thread

[Wheelhouse]

I don't understand why everyone seems to be pointing and laughing at the Pirates for trading away Wilson, Sanchez, and Snell for prospects at this point. They've been trading away MLB caliber players for prospects the entire season - that's their plan, and whether it works or not why the hell would you keep mediocre players like Sanchez and Wilson around?

If you're a Pirate fan you have no right to be upset. Neal Huntington is doing his best to work with a stingy owner and the mess Dave Littlefield left behind. I think it's refreshing to see a GM who isn't having a half-assed fire sale while signing losers like Derek Bell and Raul Mondesi to put on the appearance of "trying to win this year." Huntington isn't trying to avoid a 17th consecutive losing season, he's trying to build a team that can contend for the World Series. Look at the guys they've traded away - none of them are stars. They've given up almost nothing because they had nothing. Adam LaRoche is the third best 1B on his team right now.

[Shumway]

Hm. What's Erstad's excuse for years of sucking?

Erstad was one of the hardest working players in recent memory. Injuries have caught up to him, unfortunately, but he had a relatively good career. He's still the only guy to win a gold glove as both an outfielder and an infielder (also the only guy to win one at 3 positions). He also won a Silver Slugger award, while being the first 100-RBI leadoff man in 2000.

[FiddySicks]

I don't understand why everyone seems to be pointing and laughing at the Pirates for trading away Wilson, Sanchez, and Snell for prospects at this point. They've been trading away MLB caliber players for prospects the entire season - that's their plan, and whether it works or not why the hell would you keep mediocre players like Sanchez and Wilson around?

If you're a Pirate fan you have no right to be upset. Neal Huntington is doing his best to work with a stingy owner and the mess Dave Littlefield left behind. I think it's refreshing to see a GM who isn't having a half-assed fire sale while signing losers like Derek Bell and Raul Mondesi to put on the appearance of "trying to win this year." Huntington isn't trying to avoid a 17th consecutive losing season, he's trying to build a team that can contend for the World Series. Look at the guys they've traded away - none of them are stars. They've given up almost nothing because they had nothing. Adam LaRoche is the third best 1B on his team right now.

Can't really say a three-time all star is a "Mediocre player", but I guess since every team needs an All Star, he may have been that by default.

[Maz]

I don't understand why everyone seems to be pointing and laughing at the Pirates for trading away Wilson, Sanchez, and Snell for prospects at this point. They've been trading away MLB caliber players for prospects the entire season - that's their plan, and whether it works or not why the hell would you keep mediocre players like Sanchez and Wilson around?

If you're a Pirate fan you have no right to be upset. Neal Huntington is doing his best to work with a stingy owner and the mess Dave Littlefield left behind. I think it's refreshing to see a GM who isn't having a half-assed fire sale while signing losers like Derek Bell and Raul Mondesi to put on the appearance of "trying to win this year." Huntington isn't trying to avoid a 17th consecutive losing season, he's trying to build a team that can contend for the World Series. Look at the guys they've traded away - none of them are stars. They've given up almost nothing because they had nothing. Adam LaRoche is the third best 1B on his team right now.

'scuse me? Not a winning season in my lifetime, and I have no right to be upset? I hardly know what competitive baseball looks like. Say what you want about this manager "doing the best he can with this ownership", that's just it. The ownership is holding us back. It starts at the top. Until we get some decent ownership, were going nowhere. Look Pittsburgh champion teams, the Pens and Steelers. Amongst the best ownership groups in their respective sports, and it shows on the ice/field.

And frankly, I don't believe in our prospects at all. Yeah, you can look at the Rays and Penguins for examples on how building from scratch with prospects can work, but the Pirates have been trying it for the past 17 years and it hasnt worked.

[BBTV]

I don't understand why everyone seems to be pointing and laughing at the Pirates for trading away Wilson, Sanchez, and Snell for prospects at this point. They've been trading away MLB caliber players for prospects the entire season - that's their plan, and whether it works or not why the hell would you keep mediocre players like Sanchez and Wilson around?

If you're a Pirate fan you have no right to be upset. Neal Huntington is doing his best to work with a stingy owner and the mess Dave Littlefield left behind. I think it's refreshing to see a GM who isn't having a half-assed fire sale while signing losers like Derek Bell and Raul Mondesi to put on the appearance of "trying to win this year." Huntington isn't trying to avoid a 17th consecutive losing season, he's trying to build a team that can contend for the World Series. Look at the guys they've traded away - none of them are stars. They've given up almost nothing because they had nothing. Adam LaRoche is the third best 1B on his team right now.

'scuse me? Not a winning season in my lifetime, and I have no right to be upset? I hardly know what competitive baseball looks like. Say what you want about this manager "doing the best he can with this ownership", that's just it. The ownership is holding us back. It starts at the top. Until we get some decent ownership, were going nowhere. Look Pittsburgh champion teams, the Pens and Steelers. Amongst the best ownership groups in their respective sports, and it shows on the ice/field.

And frankly, I don't believe in our prospects at all. Yeah, you can look at the Rays and Penguins for examples on how building from scratch with prospects can work, but the Pirates have been trying it for the past 17 years and it hasnt worked.

Those are also in sports that have true revenue sharing and salary caps. Baseball, for better or worse, puts more of an emphasis on local revenue streams, which will continue to make it tough for teams like Pittsburgh, Kansas City, etc., regardless of ownership. Unfortunatley, their only real chance is to model themselves after Minnesota or Tampa Bay (who'd have ever thought Tampa would be a model?) as far as drafting well and developing young (cheap) talent, then trading that for more young (cheap) talent. I guess it's kind of what they're already trying to do, they just need to suck less at it.

[Gary]

Wheelhouse, telling a Pirate fan not to be upset is like telling a Detroit Tigers fan not to be upset from the early 90's to the early 2000's. Of course they have every right to be upset. The team is trading their best players and still on a losing pace. Pirates have not earned respect from fans who go in and support the team only to be betrayed by the team they root for. I'm sorry but I think you're wrong on this.

[Wheelhouse]

Can't really say a three-time all star is a "Mediocre player", but I guess since every team needs an All Star, he may have been that by default.

You answered your own retort.

'scuse me? Not a winning season in my lifetime, and I have no right to be upset? I hardly know what competitive baseball looks like. Say what you want about this manager "doing the best he can with this ownership", that's just it. The ownership is holding us back. It starts at the top. Until we get some decent ownership, were going nowhere. Look Pittsburgh champion teams, the Pens and Steelers. Amongst the best ownership groups in their respective sports, and it shows on the ice/field.

And frankly, I don't believe in our prospects at all. Yeah, you can look at the Rays and Penguins for examples on how building from scratch with prospects can work, but the Pirates have been trying it for the past 17 years and it hasnt worked.

Okay. Guess what? We're not getting new ownership. You can cry Mark Cuban all you want, but it ain't happening. The truth is that there is a tried and true way for fielding contending teams with a low payroll, and it starts with the GM. So what do you want, maz? A team that might finish .500 this year if they were lucky or a team built to make a strong playoff run one or two years from now?

[JayJaxon]

It's true. I believe Pirate fans have a lot to be upset about. It's the same story every year. I'm surprised they still have players to give away. They do it every season. They have been re-building since I was 10 years old. They should be winning by now.

[Maz]

Can't really say a three-time all star is a "Mediocre player", but I guess since every team needs an All Star, he may have been that by default.

You answered your own retort.

'scuse me? Not a winning season in my lifetime, and I have no right to be upset? I hardly know what competitive baseball looks like. Say what you want about this manager "doing the best he can with this ownership", that's just it. The ownership is holding us back. It starts at the top. Until we get some decent ownership, were going nowhere. Look Pittsburgh champion teams, the Pens and Steelers. Amongst the best ownership groups in their respective sports, and it shows on the ice/field.

And frankly, I don't believe in our prospects at all. Yeah, you can look at the Rays and Penguins for examples on how building from scratch with prospects can work, but the Pirates have been trying it for the past 17 years and it hasnt worked.

Okay. Guess what? We're not getting new ownership. You can cry Mark Cuban all you want, but it ain't happening. The truth is that there is a tried and true way for fielding contending teams with a low payroll, and it starts with the GM. So what do you want, maz? A team that might finish .500 this year if they were lucky or a team built to make a strong playoff run one or two years from now?

You can say they will make a run years from now, but its not going to happen. Like I said, that's what we've heard for years, and its hasn't happened yet. If by some miracle they do, then fine, Ill eat crow. And it will be one damn fine tasting crow, but as hard as Ive tried, I cant believe in the Pirates anymore.

[Wheelhouse]

Wheelhouse, telling a Pirate fan not to be upset is like telling a Detroit Tigers fan not to be upset from the early 90's to the early 2000's. Of course they have every right to be upset. The team is trading their best players and still on a losing pace. Pirates have not earned respect from fans who go in and support the team only to be betrayed by the team they root for. I'm sorry but I think you're wrong on this.

They're only being "betrayed" if they're not paying attention. It's been miserable to watch the team circle the drain for so many years with clueless management and poor play, but what more can you ask from the team this year as a fan? They were not going to win the World Series with Adam LaRoche, Nate McClouth, Freddy Sanchez, Jack Wilson, and Ian Snell. They are trying to win the only way a small market team can, by trading those guys for prospects who will hopefully become championship caliber players.

Yes it's the same old story, but I am genuinely excited about the crop of young players the Pirates have. Andrew McCutchen looks like Ken Griffey Jr. Pedro Alvarez and Jose Tabata are right on schedule coming along in the minors. If Lastings Milledge gets his act together, he will be a great asset to have. There are plenty of things to be happy about if you're a fan. Just not this year, obviously.

[FiddySicks]

Wheelhouse, telling a Pirate fan not to be upset is like telling a Detroit Tigers fan not to be upset from the early 90's to the early 2000's. Of course they have every right to be upset. The team is trading their best players and still on a losing pace. Pirates have not earned respect from fans who go in and support the team only to be betrayed by the team they root for. I'm sorry but I think you're wrong on this.

They're only being "betrayed" if they're not paying attention. It's been miserable to watch the team circle the drain for so many years with clueless management and poor play, but what more can you ask from the team this year as a fan? They were not going to win the World Series with Adam LaRoche, Nate McClouth, Freddy Sanchez, Jack Wilson, and Ian Snell. They are trying to win the only way a small market team can, by trading those guys for prospects who will hopefully become championship caliber players.

Yes it's the same old story, but I am genuinely excited about the crop of young players the Pirates have. Andrew McCutchen looks like Ken Griffey Jr. Pedro Alvarez and Jose Tabata are right on schedule coming along in the minors. If Lastings Milledge gets his act together, he will be a great asset to have. There are plenty of things to be happy about if you're a fan. Just not this year, obviously.

How is Pittsburgh a small market?

[Wheelhouse]

You can say they will make a run years from now, but its not going to happen. Like I said, that's what we've heard for years, and its hasn't happened yet.

This is the last thing I'll say about it, but I'd just like to point out that it's impossible to argue with this logic.

[BBTV]

Wheelhouse, telling a Pirate fan not to be upset is like telling a Detroit Tigers fan not to be upset from the early 90's to the early 2000's. Of course they have every right to be upset. The team is trading their best players and still on a losing pace. Pirates have not earned respect from fans who go in and support the team only to be betrayed by the team they root for. I'm sorry but I think you're wrong on this.

They're only being "betrayed" if they're not paying attention. It's been miserable to watch the team circle the drain for so many years with clueless management and poor play, but what more can you ask from the team this year as a fan? They were not going to win the World Series with Adam LaRoche, Nate McClouth, Freddy Sanchez, Jack Wilson, and Ian Snell. They are trying to win the only way a small market team can, by trading those guys for prospects who will hopefully become championship caliber players.

Yes it's the same old story, but I am genuinely excited about the crop of young players the Pirates have. Andrew McCutchen looks like Ken Griffey Jr. Pedro Alvarez and Jose Tabata are right on schedule coming along in the minors. If Lastings Milledge gets his act together, he will be a great asset to have. There are plenty of things to be happy about if you're a fan. Just not this year, obviously.

How is Pittsburgh a small market?

Pittsburgh's population is only around 300K (making it around the 60th most populated city), and it's metro area is less than 2M (2.4M if you go with the MSA number, which ranks it around 18th, just a hair ahead of Portland, and four ahead of KC)

It's "media market" ranking is between 24th and 26th, if you go by TV and Radio outlets (not sure if that's the best way to measure.)

It's local revenue streams are severely limited by things like low rights fees and low advertising revenues, which are directly correlated to market size. It is impractical for a team in these markets to own their own outlets.

Nothing against Pittsburgh (seriously), but I think it's small market by any definition.

EDIT: here's a posting from BUCCO Fans.com discussing the differences between MLB and NFL / NHL, and Pittsburgh's small-market status. I disagree with them in that I don't think that attendance has nearly as much to do with it as media-based revenue, but the rest of it is pretty accurate.

http://www.buccofans.com/2009/02/pittsburg...all-market.html

[NJTank]

Pirates Owner Revealed

Ok Pittsburgh is a small market but so is Detroit, so is Tampa, and they have managed to build a team. PNC Park is a cash cow if you let it be. If they built a good team they would be able to make money but they cant and are not willing even to try, they have already lost a generation of fans, and are at risk of losing another.

[BBTV]

Ok Pittsburgh is a small market but so is Detroit, so is Tampa, and they have managed to build a team. PNC Park is a cash cow if you let it be. If they built a good team they would be able to make money but they cant and are not willing even to try, they have already lost a generation of fans, and are at risk of losing another.

Detroit is hardly a small market. The Detroit-Warren-Livonia MSA is the 11th largest, with nearly 4.5 million. Detroit proper is also 11th, with around 900k (not that the city's pop. means much.)

[WJMorris3]

Ok Pittsburgh is a small market but so is Detroit, so is Tampa, and they have managed to build a team. PNC Park is a cash cow if you let it be. If they built a good team they would be able to make money but they cant and are not willing even to try, they have already lost a generation of fans, and are at risk of losing another.

Detroit is hardly a small market. The Detroit-Warren-Livonia MSA is the 11th largest, with nearly 4.5 million. Detroit proper is also 11th, with around 900k (not that the city's pop. means much.)

Make it 5.5 million, though the government won't use those numbers, it's right across from Windsor.

[infrared41]

Pirates Owner Revealed

Ok Pittsburgh is a small market but so is Detroit, so is Tampa, and they have managed to build a team. PNC Park is a cash cow if you let it be. If they built a good team they would be able to make money but they cant and are not willing even to try, they have already lost a generation of fans, and are at risk of losing another.

Not to pile on but...Tampa is hardly a small market either.

[dfwabel]

On the PIT issue, there is a lot here, so much so that I am somewhat sorry that I made the crack about 20+ consecutive losing seasons. For the sake of not posting all the other comments, I will write this in Word and just respond to select comments. Sorry if I am late to the party, "Wheelhouse" and NJTank, but NJTank is used to it. I am sorry in not directly addressing each recent poster.

1-In the last 16 seasons, PIT has won only 43.75% of their games. 1104 wins ? 1419 losses through the 2008 season.

2-They ARE a small market. After 20 minutes of looking to see the local contract numbers, I failed to see recent/current numbers, you cannot base media size on the money which they receive. In MLB and the NHL, you cannot equate metro populations from Neilson or Arbitron in terms of the value of the media contract since that audience is very limited when compared to local news.

3-Unemployment in the Pittsburgh area rose a tenth of a percentage point to 7.6 percent in June, its highest rate in nearly 23 years, according to the latest numbers from the state Department of Labor & Industry. However, the seasonally adjusted unemployment rate for the seven-county Pittsburgh metropolitan statistical area is below Pennsylvania's rate of 8.3 percent, and the national rate of 9.5 percent, the agency said. This does not mean that season tickets to the Pirates or even Penguins are a necessity. Especially since August is the trial for casino gambling.

4-Honestly, after Carl Barger left for Marlins (and subsequently died to the delight of many Tampa Bay folks), the team has not been the same in terms of player development and management. This does not clear ownership entirely from 1993-2007, but if the best ?hot shot? from other teams gets hired, but can't run the team or draft well, is it really the fault of then owner McClatchy? He got you the revenue stream necessary, but I will admit he had a GM who was just ?there?. Then again did Bonifay and Littlefield have such poor judgement in terms of talent (scouts) and player development that they just hoped for guys to be productive just to trade them? That sounds very much against sabermetrics.

[NJTank]

On the PIT issue, there is a lot here, so much so that I am somewhat sorry that I made the crack about 20+ consecutive losing seasons. For the sake of not posting all the other comments, I will write this in Word and just respond to select comments. Sorry if I am late to the party, "Wheelhouse" and NJTank, but NJTank is used to it. I am sorry in not directly addressing each recent poster.

1-In the last 16 seasons, PIT has won only 43.75% of their games. 1104 wins ? 1419 losses through the 2008 season.

2-They ARE a small market. After 20 minutes of looking to see the local contract numbers, I failed to see recent/current numbers, you cannot base media size on the money which they receive. In MLB and the NHL, you cannot equate metro populations from Neilson or Arbitron in terms of the value of the media contract since that audience is very limited when compared to local news.

3-Unemployment in the Pittsburgh area rose a tenth of a percentage point to 7.6 percent in June, its highest rate in nearly 23 years, according to the latest numbers from the state Department of Labor & Industry. However, the seasonally adjusted unemployment rate for the seven-county Pittsburgh metropolitan statistical area is below Pennsylvania's rate of 8.3 percent, and the national rate of 9.5 percent, the agency said. This does not mean that season tickets to the Pirates or even Penguins are a necessity. Especially since August is the trial for casino gambling.

4-Honestly, after Carl Barger left for Marlins (and subsequently died to the delight of many Tampa Bay folks), the team has not been the same in terms of player development and management. This does not clear ownership entirely from 1993-2007, but if the best ?hot shot? from other teams gets hired, but can't run the team or draft well, is it really the fault of then owner McClatchy? He got you the revenue stream necessary, but I will admit he had a GM who was just ?there?. Then again did Bonifay and Littlefield have such poor judgement in terms of talent (scouts) and player development that they just hoped for guys to be productive just to trade them? That sounds very much against sabermetrics.

See I dont buy the small market argument, they have a revenue generating stadium and still cant win, they cant seem to develop great players and they never get top notch prospects when they do make trades, to me the Pirates problem is they are run on the cheap, and the owners are content with a profit at years end even if it means losing, instead of investing into the team.

[dfwabel]

On the PIT issue, there is a lot here, so much so that I am somewhat sorry that I made the crack about 20+ consecutive losing seasons. For the sake of not posting all the other comments, I will write this in Word and just respond to select comments. Sorry if I am late to the party, "Wheelhouse" and NJTank, but NJTank is used to it. I am sorry in not directly addressing each recent poster.

1-In the last 16 seasons, PIT has won only 43.75% of their games. 1104 wins ? 1419 losses through the 2008 season.

2-They ARE a small market. After 20 minutes of looking to see the local contract numbers, I failed to see recent/current numbers, you cannot base media size on the money which they receive. In MLB and the NHL, you cannot equate metro populations from Neilson or Arbitron in terms of the value of the media contract since that audience is very limited when compared to local news.

3-Unemployment in the Pittsburgh area rose a tenth of a percentage point to 7.6 percent in June, its highest rate in nearly 23 years, according to the latest numbers from the state Department of Labor & Industry. However, the seasonally adjusted unemployment rate for the seven-county Pittsburgh metropolitan statistical area is below Pennsylvania's rate of 8.3 percent, and the national rate of 9.5 percent, the agency said. This does not mean that season tickets to the Pirates or even Penguins are a necessity. Especially since August is the trial for casino gambling.

4-Honestly, after Carl Barger left for Marlins (and subsequently died to the delight of many Tampa Bay folks), the team has not been the same in terms of player development and management. This does not clear ownership entirely from 1993-2007, but if the best ?hot shot? from other teams gets hired, but can't run the team or draft well, is it really the fault of then owner McClatchy? He got you the revenue stream necessary, but I will admit he had a GM who was just ?there?. Then again did Bonifay and Littlefield have such poor judgement in terms of talent (scouts) and player development that they just hoped for guys to be productive just to trade them? That sounds very much against sabermetrics.

See I dont buy the small market argument, they have a revenue generating stadium and still cant win, they cant seem to develop great players and they never get top notch prospects when they do make trades, to me the Pirates problem is they are run on the cheap, and the owners are content with a profit at years end even if it means losing, instead of investing into the team.

1-You are a damn fool for thinking that they can sell out every night on that population and their economic engines. If they were winning I think they may draw 10% more. Families lives live beyond supporting every local sport team, NJTank. Not just to smirk on you, but all the other recently new, teenage posters who are in a one team town, really they do. You still don't know mucg about living a life.

2-I do not know what Liberty (Fox Sports Pit) or radio gives them as it is not published, so you have no public argument there. If you knew NJTANK, I assume it would be placed on your personal site.

3-They do not give up top prospects probably since their development is so poor which the better teams don't want players recently drafted. Plus, the new prospects could be equal to those which other team have and think are good enough to make the MLB...hence they drafted them! Outside of rounds 7-9, it is a crap shoot.

4-The Pirates did not have a Latin American academy until now yet it si not complete. Before 2007, they just had a few fields as some strength equipment. In 2007, a real commitment for an academy was made.