Houston Astros 10 Years at Minute Maid Logo

[IceCap]

I haven't been to MMP, and I respect that it makes my opinion less relevant. But it doesn't make it totally irrelevant.

See, I have watched numerous games played there, and I've seen how these gimmicks affect the play of the ballgame. And that's all I need to know.

That's pretty much where I'm at.

The hill/flag is the worst. IMO a gimmick that's in-play automatically subtracts from the park. What's the purpose of the hill? Why couldn't they stick the American flag on a flagpole somewhere else in the park?

The train is also silly. Why is it there? Yes, Houston's a "train" city, that's fantastic. It has nothing to do with the team's name though. Astros=space. I fail to see how a train factors into that equation.

The train with the giant Astros star on the front is one of the most ridiculous images associated with baseball I've ever seen.

Toronto is home to Ft. York, but it would still look ridiculous if the Blue Jays brought in fake cannons with fake red coats firing them off every Jays home run. The same logic applies to the Astros and their train/old western gimmicks.

Am I saying the Astrodome was perfect? No. I'm sure it was time to retire that stadium. That doesn't automatically make its replacement a fantastic park.

The location is awful because it limits the size of the field, but even then, it doesn't drag the park down.

If they stripped away the train, the hill, and all the unneeded shoppes and restaurants and just focused on making it a ballpark it would be acceptable.

[mmejia]

I have been to the park. And I think Icecap's correct in his description.

The ballpark was a huge part of the revitalization of Houston's inner city. I have a townhome in midtown and absolutely love walking to a downtown park while hitting some pubs on the way. Walking to any kind of venue in this city was unheard of 20 years ago.

That's great - I love that. But none of that has anything to do with Minute Maid Park's relative value as a baseball park once you actually get inside the building.

I just think the aspects of the park and it's relation to a pure game are getting overemphasized in this thread, that's all. As posted above, the center field flag pole has come into play one time in the park's 9 season history. The hill.. 3-4 times a season, if that, and almost every time it's inclusion in the play has meant nothing. Same with HR numbers which have leveled off since that first wild season with a few adjustments of the height of left field wall. MMP hitting numbers are middle of the road amongst MLB parks and nowhere close to the numbers seen at Cincy, Fenway, or Colorado.

[Firefly]

The hill/flag is the worst. IMO a gimmick that's in-play automatically subtracts from the park. What's the purpose of the hill? Why couldn't they stick the American flag on a flagpole somewhere else in the park?

The train is also silly. Why is it there? Yes, Houston's a "train" city, that's fantastic. It has nothing to do with the team's name though. Astros=space. I fail to see how a train factors into that equation.

The train with the giant Astros star on the front is one of the most ridiculous images associated with baseball I've ever seen.

I have more of a problem with the escalators and the sweepstakes car they have near the Texas St. entrance.

I mean, Biggio's old, catcher-ravaged knees could handle the hill. They could have moved the flagpole over, but then it would take up room from the center field bar. There's no way Drayton would take room away from serving profit boosting booze.

The train? My kids love that thing. That's the target. Future fans. Don't tell me you weren't a stupid kid one that thought something totally irrelevant was totally awesome.

[Gothamite]

The aesthetics of a stadium seem particularly pertinent to this board. In MMP's case, if the quirks drag the place down above their actual impact on play, that says a lot about them.

[veb68]

As I recall the when the new stadium was approved and the location next to Union Station was agreed upon weren't the Astros seriously considering changing their name and look to a locomotive theme. If I'm not mistaken there was talk of them being named the Houston Express but Nolan Ryan's minor league team had that name.

[The_Admiral]

I think it was "the East Texas Railmen," which sounds more like a wrestling tag-team that never makes it off the indy circuit. Their finisher would be "the Locomotion."

[Gothamite]

I thought it was "South Texas Railmen." Funny thing, memory.

But whatever it was, it resulted in a stadium aesthetic (not to mention color scheme and logo) that makes no sense within the team's identity.

[mmejia]

The name "wildcatters" wasn't terribly far away from being the name of the team when they moved to MMP in 2000.

[swisherHOU]

The name "wildcatters" wasn't terribly far away from being the name of the team when they moved to MMP in 2000.

I think you're thinking of the a name the Texans were considering, not the Astros.

Yes the train is goofy...but so is our owner who insisted on it and paid for it. The stadium was originally known (before Enron bought the naming rights) as the Ballpark at Union Station and they seriously considered changing the name (as mentioned above) of the team to the Express, which was stupid and thankfully they ditched the idea. But my kids love the train too. It sits up there and choo-choos after Astro home runs...big freaking deal. No it has nothing to with the name Astros, can't disagree with that. If that somehow ruins your baseball experience than I'm sorry for that. Could I live without it, yes. Does it bother me that a train sits up there with giant oranges that look like pumpkins, not really because I barely even notice it, even after a homerun.

Minute Maid Park has the 14th in shortest average outfield wall distances. And it has the deepest centerfield in baseball at 436, where the flagpole sits right up against the fence (a feature borrowed from Yankee Stadium and Tiger Stadium) at the top of Tal's Hill, which in turn is at the end of a huge warning track. Does it need to be there? No. Does it affect the game, rarely. Most times a ball might roll up to the grass, every once in awhile (3 or 4 times a season) an outfielder will have to take a step or two onto the grass to catch a ball and only once have I ever seen the hill make a difference in the ball being caught or not and that was by an old second baseman trying to play in the outfield (Biggio).

If you think these things are gimmicks, so be it. But I go to Minute Maid Park at least a half dozen times each season and love the place.

Here's a photo I took of Tal's Hill as it looks from the field:

[mmejia]

The name "wildcatters" wasn't terribly far away from being the name of the team when they moved to MMP in 2000.

I think you're thinking of the a name the Texans were considering, not the Astros.

While the Texans did explore the Wildcatters as a possible name, the Astros did as well. Here's an article from 1997:

houston biz journal

[STL FANATIC]

Once again, I don't care how the Home Runs average out.

I care about the fact that a left can pop up to opposite field and hit a 320 ft homerun, while a Righty (or lefty) can smash one 430 feet to left center and come up empty handed.

And not just that it can happen, but that both of those things happen frequently. I'm not asking for every park to have the exact same dimensions. But I much prefer parks that let the game be the game instead of making the park the game.

[The_Admiral]

The park is a part of the game and should be. It always has been. We grouse about today's wacky dimensions here and there, but parks like Griffith Stadium and the Polo Grounds would be nearly unconscionable today. It's one of the things that makes baseball great. A basketball court is a basketball court, but ballparks are a treasure trove of variables. I like that Dodger Stadium produces a different game than Wrigley Field, and that Wrigley Field on a hot July afternoon produces a different game than Wrigley Field on a cold April evening. Where my complaints arise is when teams fabricate these sorts of gimmicks like Houston does, instead of them being the legitimate results of terrain, climate, elevation, or street grids. Kauffman Stadium, with its deep symmetrical curvilinear outfield fence, has gone from the status quo to a novelty of its own: a deep center field without haphazard anglular fences? Now that's a gimmick!

Surprisingly heretofore immune from condemnation has been Citizens Bank Park, a lyric little bandbox with contrived fences and short porches...in the middle of a giant parking lot, itself in the middle of an enormous complex of parking lots.

[NYCdog]

That park sucks.

I'm sure it's beautiful and a fun experience.

But that park makes a great case for implementing some ballpark standards in the MLB. Lefties shouldn't be able to hit popups for three run home runs, but it happens all the time there.

I love unique features to ballparks, but I get tired of the gimmicks that tear at the quality of the game. From the hill, to the flagpole in play, to the short LF, MMP is closer to a theme park than a ballpark.

Im sure they would have made left field deeper (to your liking) except there is one problem.

There is an 85 year-old building and tracks for a roof standing in there way.

And while Houston might have all the gimicks of a circus fun-house, atleast Houston doesn't have an unsightly hole-in-the-ground behind the left field wall of their shiney new park like you Card fans get enjoy. And sadly, since the Cards, Cordish Development Co., and the city of STL can't seem to work together on what to build, it looks like baseball's juiced-up power hitters will now have this hole-in-the-ground next door to aim at come All-Star Game/Home Run Derby time.

Not sure what Busch Stadium has to do with this.

It doesn't. NYCdog's grasping for straws.

I'd tend to agree. But at least that one's an honest quirk of geography, rather than ripping off other distinctive elements of historical stadiums for no other reason than gimmickry.

Like the hill with the flagpole. That pisses me off to no end. It's an injury risk for center fielders, and also provides a major fielding annoyance. I'd be alright with it if it was necessitated by the topography, but it's only purpose is to be a gimmick.

Exactly. Stuff like the hill/flagpole and the train just aren't needed. It could be a passable ballpark if they stripped it of the gimmicks.

There is an 85 year-old building and tracks for a roof standing in there way.

Then it was a pretty crappy place to build a ballpark.

A. Grasping for straws? That makes no sense seeing as I'm obviously not an Astros fan. Better yet, your post is a better example of "grasping for straws."

As for Busch, since we were on the topic of "annoying things with certain ballparks," I brought up Busch and that hole, which pisses me off. Such a beautiful view of downtown St Louis with the Arch.....destroyed by this hole in the outfield.

B. I agree....IIRC, Houston has no hills, just flat land. So why do a hill? The Hill really should be in Great American Ballpark in Cincy as a nod to Crosley Terrace.

C. Its easy for you and other nobody's to say "its a crappy location," but I'm sure the locals down there might have had good reason to choose the location. Maybe to save that 85 year-old train station from the wrecking ball? Astros fans, feel free to clear that up....

You're amusing in a prologo kind of way.

If a park's location restricts it from being big enough then yeah, the location is crappy. There's one reason and one reason only that the Astros chose that location to build their park; to make their train gimmick (which doesn't even fit with the team's name) fit.

Bad gimmicks, bad location, bad ballpark.

Actually Icecap, you're a lil more amusing man....you got me beat there.

You say "I'm grasping at straws" THEN post that "the Astros ONLY chose that location for Minute Maid Park just so they can make a train gimmick."

Are you kidding me?

[scraw28]

I thought they were ghoing to bring back the Enron field logo

[IceCap]

Actually Icecap, you're a lil more amusing man....you got me beat there.

You say "I'm grasping at straws" THEN post that "the Astros ONLY chose that location for Minute Maid Park just so they can make a train gimmick."

Are you kidding me?

You're grasping for straws because you have to bring up something that has no relation to the topic in order to semi-justify your point.

And given that the Astros completely changed their identity, from the aesthetic of their ballpark to logo and uniform changes, to even a proposed name change, all to fit in with the Union Station location of the park, yeah, I'd say it all factored into the decision making of the park's location.

The train? My kids love that thing. That's the target. Future fans. Don't tell me you weren't a stupid kid one that thought something totally irrelevant was totally awesome.

I'm all for mindless fun for the kids, I just think they could have made it so that fun fit with the team's identity.

I'm guessing that, at least as far as kids are concerned, that spaceships beat out trains in the fun department.

[Firefly]

The only space inspired thing I recall from the Dome was the mascot, Orbit:

He's been replaced by this a-hole (who's name escapes me and I don't want to look up):

I suppose the dome is kinda UFO-shaped. The team seems like they are more interested in reinforcing the city's identity than the team's.

[cajunaggie08]

That a-hole is Junction Jack. Everytime I see him I want to punch his face in

[BallWonk]

The train with the giant Astros star on the front is one of the most ridiculous images associated with baseball I've ever seen.

Toronto is home to Ft. York, but it would still look ridiculous if the Blue Jays brought in fake cannons with fake red coats firing them off every Jays home run. The same logic applies to the Astros and their train/old western gimmicks.

No, the redcoats firing the cannon in Toronto would be awesome. It's a good thing when not everything that happens at a game is perfectly branded to the team's marketing identity. I was against Houston's train until I read your analogy, but you changed my mind. The train is great. It should stay.

(Though to be fair, firing cannons at a Blue Jays game would probably be a terrible idea, what with the acoustics of the place. You don't actually want to deafen your fans.)

[Gothamite]

It's a good thing when not everything that happens at a game is perfectly branded to the team's marketing identity.

True enough. But it's a bad thing when everything that happens at a game is perfectly branded to an identity other than that of the team. Hence the problem with the Astros.

I do love the idea of Redcoats firing cannons at Blue Jay games.

[BallWonk]

It's a good thing when not everything that happens at a game is perfectly branded to the team's marketing identity.

True enough. But it's a bad thing when everything that happens at a game is perfectly branded to an identity other than that of the team. Hence the problem with the Astros.

I do love the idea of Redcoats firing cannons at Blue Jay games.

Two points, mainly in jest:

1. Many of the commenters here who decry the train as conflicting with the "Astros" identity have also in the past vociferously agreed with calls to scrap the team's current space-related color scheme and return to the completely non-space-related blue and orange. Well, which is it? Should a team's ephemera match the meaning of its name, or not?

2. At this point, it's been 37 years since the last time NASA sent astronauts further into space than the distance from Houston to Dallas, straight up. When you think about it, the "Astros" identity is just as dated, compared to the experiences of people alive today, as a reference to steam locomotives. They're both completely obsolete technologies that symbolize distant historical eras. So there really isn't all that much conflict between the train and the star. We need to get over the myth that there's anything futuristic about the "Astros" team identity -- it's a reference to long-past civic glory, just like the Brewers or Mariners. The "Astros" are just the "Expos" in Texas as far as their name goes.