NFL thoughts II

[Saintsfan]

1. Its strange how some franchises are into sacking head coaches very quickly, and some hang onto there head coaches almost no matter what.

2. It seems that now more than ever NFL head coaches are under pressure. Especially as there are so many proven coaches without teams. Gruden, Shanahan, Holmgren, Billick and Cowher are all Superbowl winning head coaches who might want to return in 2010.

3. My tips for guys under most pressure in 2009 are - Marvin Lewis with the Bengals, Dick Jauron with the Bills, Gary Kubiak with the Texans, maybe even Del Rio in Jacksonville, Childress if the Vikings struggle, John Fox in Carolina. Exactly how the Broncos get on could be interesting, with a complete flame out very bad for McDaniels, though personally I think Bowlen has to give his rookie HC a bit of time.

4. I wonder if the instant success that Mike Smith and John Harbaugh had in 2008 will put more pressure on the 2009 rookies?

5. I think its a pity that there aren't many real veteran coaches hanging around the NFL. There was something pretty cool about Shula and Landry hanging around there team's sidelines for a couple of generations.

6. If I had to pick my favourite 5 coaches from NFL history, I would go for Bellichick, Hank Stram (just for the name! Could only have become a football coach with that name!), Bill Walsh, Tom Landry (if only for the hat!) and Marv Levy (just for being so dogged about trying to get the Bills over the line even if he didn't quite manage it!)

[Gary]

couldn't this have gone with NFL Thoughts I?

[BlueSky]

You're a Saints fan but you didn't list our own Sean Payton. I don't think he's going to last through too many more 7-9 or 8-8 seasons no matter how good the offense is.

[Saintsfan]

You're a Saints fan but you didn't list our own Sean Payton. I don't think he's going to last through too many more 7-9 or 8-8 seasons no matter how good the offense is.

Its not that Saints I am a fan of, but the troubled soccer team (Southampton!) But Payton seems to have done ok so far. Id this going to be his 2nd or 3rd season as coach? I guess his fate depends on how bad the Saints year is, but my feeling is that the Saints are the most likely of franchises to sack a coach.

[BlueSky]

You're a Saints fan but you didn't list our own Sean Payton. I don't think he's going to last through too many more 7-9 or 8-8 seasons no matter how good the offense is.

Its not that Saints I am a fan of, but the troubled soccer team (Southampton!) But Payton seems to have done ok so far. Id this going to be his 2nd or 3rd season as coach? I guess his fate depends on how bad the Saints year is, but my feeling is that the Saints are the most likely of franchises to sack a coach.

Seeing your location, I almost asked whether it was the N.O. Saints or another team with the same nickname. Troubled? Seems 'Saints' as a nickname brings out the worst then, hey?

As for Payton, this is his 4th season. 10-6 (lost in NFC Championship), 7-9, 8-8. If anyone wants a microcosm of their entire season last year, just go to NFL.com, go to Videos, Highlights, 2008, Week 5, MIN @ NO, NFLTA: Vikings at Saints. Promising start, great plays and a chance to win ruined by stupid mistakes and glaring defensive deficiencies, with some horrible officiating thrown in for good measure. In fact, ONE PLAY in that game sums up last season - Reggie's punt return that was absolutely stellar until he fell down without even being touched.

[Saintsfan]

You're a Saints fan but you didn't list our own Sean Payton. I don't think he's going to last through too many more 7-9 or 8-8 seasons no matter how good the offense is.

Its not that Saints I am a fan of, but the troubled soccer team (Southampton!) But Payton seems to have done ok so far. Id this going to be his 2nd or 3rd season as coach? I guess his fate depends on how bad the Saints year is, but my feeling is that the Saints are the most likely of franchises to sack a coach.

Seeing your location, I almost asked whether it was the N.O. Saints or another team with the same nickname. Troubled? Seems 'Saints' as a nickname brings out the worst then, hey?

As for Payton, this is his 4th season. 10-6 (lost in NFC Championship), 7-9, 8-8. If anyone wants a microcosm of their entire season last year, just go to NFL.com, go to Videos, Highlights, 2008, Week 5, MIN @ NO, NFLTA: Vikings at Saints. Promising start, great plays and a chance to win ruined by stupid mistakes and glaring defensive deficiencies, with some horrible officiating thrown in for good measure. In fact, ONE PLAY in that game sums up last season - Reggie's punt return that was absolutely stellar until he fell down without even being touched.

I am left thinking that if you have a winning record over the last 3 years, and have played in an NFC championship game in the last 3 years, a lot of NFL team fans would not think of the Saints as being troubled. I think that 8-8 is a fairly respectable record. I think thats one of the problems with fans in the NFL nowadays, insisting on stupendous results. Not everyone is gonna make the playoffs every year. The Saints are doing pretty well overall at the moment, sure they could kick on, but I don't think Payton's position really SHOULD have him hugely under pressure so far.

[BlueSky]

You're a Saints fan but you didn't list our own Sean Payton. I don't think he's going to last through too many more 7-9 or 8-8 seasons no matter how good the offense is.

Its not that Saints I am a fan of, but the troubled soccer team (Southampton!) But Payton seems to have done ok so far. Id this going to be his 2nd or 3rd season as coach? I guess his fate depends on how bad the Saints year is, but my feeling is that the Saints are the most likely of franchises to sack a coach.

Seeing your location, I almost asked whether it was the N.O. Saints or another team with the same nickname. Troubled? Seems 'Saints' as a nickname brings out the worst then, hey?

As for Payton, this is his 4th season. 10-6 (lost in NFC Championship), 7-9, 8-8. If anyone wants a microcosm of their entire season last year, just go to NFL.com, go to Videos, Highlights, 2008, Week 5, MIN @ NO, NFLTA: Vikings at Saints. Promising start, great plays and a chance to win ruined by stupid mistakes and glaring defensive deficiencies, with some horrible officiating thrown in for good measure. In fact, ONE PLAY in that game sums up last season - Reggie's punt return that was absolutely stellar until he fell down without even being touched.

I am left thinking that if you have a winning record over the last 3 years, and have played in an NFC championship game in the last 3 years, a lot of NFL team fans would not think of the Saints as being troubled. I think that 8-8 is a fairly respectable record. I think thats one of the problems with fans in the NFL nowadays, insisting on stupendous results. Not everyone is gonna make the playoffs every year. The Saints are doing pretty well overall at the moment, sure they could kick on, but I don't think Payton's position really SHOULD have him hugely under pressure so far.

If they had a normal history, i.e. their share of winning, I might agree completely. The last few years have indeed been promising compared to what came before.

You may or may not know details of the Saints' history, but they entered the NFL in 1967 and 'only' took 20 years to post their FIRST winning record. In 'just' 34 years they managed their FIRST playoff win. In their entire history they have won TWO playoff games. They have lost games by giving up a sack for a safety with less than a minute left. They traded their entire draft for one player (Ricky Williams) who did little before being traded several years later. A newly signed punt returned missed a game because he claimed he couldn't find the Superdome. It's that gigantic building with the white DOME on it that takes up quite a bit of downtown! (see pic below)

The examples go on and on and on. If there was a nickname and logo set exemplifying total and unending futility, I would advocate they change to it immediately. So your point is valid in general but you must forgive us long-term Saints fans if we are less patient than the average NFL fan.

[Saintsfan]

I don't disagree that being a Nyawlins saints fan must require patience. But the team is in a decent enough position right now. After all, how long were the Cardinals awful for before Whisenhunt arrived? How long have the Lions be plain bad for, save for a few years how long have the Rams been bad for? How long did the Pats have to suffer being rubbish before turning into a dynasty? Being a fan of most teams in the NFL takes patience, and the teams that do make a move to being good seem to me to be the ones who are the most patient. For most franchises the periods of being good are the unusual periods of there history. You just keep smiling and looking out for the good results!

I think to kick Payton out, unless the Saints had a really bad year, MIGHT turn out to be counterproductive. He seems to have his head screwed on the right way, and the saints might only be a couple of players away from being a good team. And remember when you are feeling bad, just be glad you aren't a Lions fan.

[oddball]

NFL head coaches are hired to be fired. The day they're hired is just one day closer to them being fired.

[infrared41]

couldn't this have gone with NFL Thoughts I?

Does it really matter that much?

[dfwabel]

1. Its strange how some franchises are into sacking head coaches very quickly, and some hang onto there head coaches almost no matter what.

2. It seems that now more than ever NFL head coaches are under pressure. Especially as there are so many proven coaches without teams. Gruden, Shanahan, Holmgren, Billick and Cowher are all Superbowl winning head coaches who might want to return in 2010.

3. My tips for guys under most pressure in 2009 are - Marvin Lewis with the Bengals, Dick Jauron with the Bills, Gary Kubiak with the Texans, maybe even Del Rio in Jacksonville, Childress if the Vikings struggle, John Fox in Carolina. Exactly how the Broncos get on could be interesting, with a complete flame out very bad for McDaniels, though personally I think Bowlen has to give his rookie HC a bit of time.

4. I wonder if the instant success that Mike Smith and John Harbaugh had in 2008 will put more pressure on the 2009 rookies?

5. I think its a pity that there aren't many real veteran coaches hanging around the NFL. There was something pretty cool about Shula and Landry hanging around there team's sidelines for a couple of generations.

6. If I had to pick my favourite 5 coaches from NFL history, I would go for Bellichick, Hank Stram (just for the name! Could only have become a football coach with that name!), Bill Walsh, Tom Landry (if only for the hat!) and Marv Levy (just for being so dogged about trying to get the Bills over the line even if he didn't quite manage it!)

Let me try to answer your points one-by-one and others can add to them as they wish.

1-Most (new or veteran) NFL coaches get a much longer leash than your EPL counterparts. Very rarely is a coach fired in mid-season and it did occur in 2008 with Linehan and Kiffin. New coaches are not gone in under 8 games like make EPL managers are. Most new coaches want the job to have the position and prove themselves and many previous coaches try to get "total control" on coaching and player management. In recent years, those who have total control have not had much success in terms of Super Bowls. Seattle got to Super Bowl XL after Holmgren released his "total control".

2-Everyone in sport or otherwise is under pressure. That is part of the position and that is why they make a large salary which is usually guaranteed.

3- The coaches which you mentioned I think are on the "hot seat" are only Lewis, Jauron, Del Rio, and possibly Childress. The Texans are still new and in a rough division. McDaniels was hired to change their culture, so he is very safe. Joh nFox has drafted well and is a good coach; he is safe.

4- The rookie coaches were hired for a reason and that was not instant success. Kansas City and Denver have loyal followings and great fan bases so it is not about ticket sales which the EPL teams may have to deal with. Seattle has Jim Mora II, ans they are safe ticketwise. Mike Singletary (SF) has a city which loves football and has a sad love for what occurred 30 years ago with "The Catch" and they fail to remember that Dallas was about to win, but Danny White was sacked an fumbled.

5-Veteran coaches make a good salary on TV/radio and don't have to work nearly as hard. Why put your family through that mess again when you can still have a nice lifestyle?

6- You picked winning coaches. Nice. . Tom Landry's last 3 years were horrible, Bill Walsh just took the label from his Cincinnati Bengals playbook and placed "West Coast Offense" on the binder. And I am sad that you don't like Parcells or Chuck Noll.

[Saintsfan]

I didn't say I don't like Parcells or Noll, though I don't know enough about Noll to make much of a judgement. I missed Shula as well, but those are my fave 5.

Somehow I always liked Bill Walsh growing up as a young Football fan in the UK, (80s was the heyday of NFL in the UK!) Though I didn't especially like the 49ers or Montana. Can't really work out the disconnect between Walsh and the 49ers in my mind though!

My point about coaches being under extra pressure now comes about because there are a lot of good NFL coaches with proven records hanging around on NFL network or CBS Or wherever else. For instance there is already some talk of a Cowher to Panthers move. (One reason Fox is on my list of those who maybe under pressure!) I don't expect all those under fire to get fired, but I do expect some to come under pressure.

One thing with the Texans is they seem to want to win more than some expansion franchises have wanted to, so maybe Kubiak might come under more fire than most young coaches with expansion teams might expect.

[BBTV]

NFL head coaches are hired to be fired. The day they're hired is just one day closer to them being fired.

Unless you're Bill Cower, Mike Holmgren, et al.

[TFoA]

And considering where Mike Tomlin is, unless he goes 2, 3, 4, 5 wins a year for 5 years running, Tomlin ain't goin' nowhere. Winning a Super Bowl with the Steelers = best job security in the NFL.

[Gothamite]

NFL head coaches are hired to be fired. The day they're hired is just one day closer to them being fired.

Unless you're Bill Cower, Mike Holmgren, et al.

Maybe not fired, but I doubt that Holmgren's departure from Seattle was entirely voluntary.

[Saintsfan]

NFL head coaches are hired to be fired. The day they're hired is just one day closer to them being fired.

Unless you're Bill Cower, Mike Holmgren, et al.

Maybe not fired, but I doubt that Holmgren's departure from Seattle was entirely voluntary.

I think thats what made Shanahan's firing most surprising, after everything he had doen for the Broncos, you'd have hoped they would have given him the dignity of at least a 'mutually agreed' departure. Apparently 2 superbowl wins doesn't guarantee job security anymore.

[Jigga]

Correction. Two Super Bowl wins 10 years ago doesn't guarantee job security anymore. Nor should it, frankly.

As an NFL Head Coach, you are paid to win (or fill seats). Plus Shanny's deal had to do with the fact that Shanny the GM was killing Shanny the Coach. He was totally to blame for the mediocrity that has befallen the Ponies organization...so he got run. Is it fair? Who knows? But they know what they're getting into.

When overpriced, overrated players who haven't done anything in a handful of years get cut, no one cries a tear...don't start shedding 'em for some coach.

[Saintsfan]

I am not at all saying that Shanahan deserved to stay, but I do think that anyone who has given a lot to a franchise (or any type of organisation for that matter) and been a part of its only 2 Superbowl wins, and the franchise was still do pretty well (frankly I don't think the Broncos had arrived at mediocrity!) then I think they have deserved a more dignified exit than Shanahan got. I think the same would go for a player as well. A guy who has been around for a decade or more and made a huge contribution to the history of the franchise deserves a dignified exit.

[Brendan]

NFL head coaches are hired to be fired. The day they're hired is just one day closer to them being fired.

Unless you're Bill Cower, Mike Holmgren, et al.

Maybe not fired, but I doubt that Holmgren's departure from Seattle was entirely voluntary.

I think when he first announced he would step down following last season it was entirely his decision. After they named Mora his successor he really couldn't change his mind, which I think he might of wanted to after the hawks went 4-12.

[Jigga]

I am not at all saying that Shanahan deserved to stay, but I do think that anyone who has given a lot to a franchise (or any type of organisation for that matter) and been a part of its only 2 Superbowl wins, and the franchise was still do pretty well (frankly I don't think the Broncos had arrived at mediocrity!) then I think they have deserved a more dignified exit than Shanahan got. I think the same would go for a player as well. A guy who has been around for a decade or more and made a huge contribution to the history of the franchise deserves a dignified exit.

Tell that to Derrick Brooks.

I agree that it could have been handled better, but that's just putting lipstick on a pig.