Cleveland Cavaliers 2009-2010 Jersey Log

[BBTV]

A majority doesn't mean it's right. It just means that the majority of the people in this thread like their lives to be orderly and predictable. As long as the jerseys look good, what difference does it make?

This Cleveland fan couldn't care less. As long as The Cavs keep winning, I don't care if they wear Cleveland Barons jerseys.

Not that I care, but I'd love to hear a rational and objective argument on why the number of jerseys is a bad thing. Your argument cannot contain "I think" or "because it's how everyone else does it." Just prove why it's bad without it being an opinion.

Have fun. I'll check back later.

What's with the Cleveland fans on the board getting defensive anytime anyone even hints at disliking or disagreeing with anything even vaguely related to Cleveland? Insecurity complex?

Anyway, there are rational and objective arguments in this thread, as well as in this one.

[Sodboy13]

Why do you guys care so much? They are all great jerseys. Enjoy them!

*Looks at Ehlo-era throwbacks*

*Looks at miscolored Ehlo-era throwbacks*

Yeah, about that "great jerseys" argument. Um, no.

[infrared41]

A majority doesn't mean it's right. It just means that the majority of the people in this thread like their lives to be orderly and predictable. As long as the jerseys look good, what difference does it make?

This Cleveland fan couldn't care less. As long as The Cavs keep winning, I don't care if they wear Cleveland Barons jerseys.

Not that I care, but I'd love to hear a rational and objective argument on why the number of jerseys is a bad thing. Your argument cannot contain "I think" or "because it's how everyone else does it." Just prove why it's bad without it being an opinion.

Have fun. I'll check back later.

What's with the Cleveland fans on the board getting defensive anytime anyone even hints at disliking or disagreeing with anything even vaguely related to Cleveland? Insecurity complex?

Anyway, there are rational and objective arguments in this thread, as well as in this one.

I'm not being defensive at all. I just wondered what the argument against the numerous jerseys would be. I'm just fascinated by how worked up people can get over a jersey. But that's beside the point.

A similar question could be asked of you. What's with everyone having a cow and getting all bent out of shape over the number of jerseys worn by a basketball team? Are they insecure in a world where there's no order in choosing a basketball uniform?

It's not like there's any intellectual high ground in this debate.

On your links to "rational and objective" arguments; First, "that's the way it's always been" is not an argument. Second, people who actually market their teams probably have a better idea of what works, what will be too much, and how to market their brand, than do those of us who simply talk about it on an internet forum. If for no other reason than they have actual market studies, stats, etc. at their disposal.

We're still nowhere but "I think" and "here's how everyone else does it." You and I both know that there is no objective argument against what The Cavs are doing. The arguments against it, while steeped in tradition and bar stool pro sports marketing, are sound but also entirely subjective.

[BBTV]

Again, the reasons why people are getting "worked up" are posted in those threads I linked to. It has nothing to do with the Cavs specifically, but more about using them as a case study for branding follies. The argument is pretty much that a team can dilute its identity and lose brand recognition by making some of the choices that the Cavs have during the LeBron era. Of course this is subjective, but I'm not sure that there are too many good arguments that dispute it. "Who cares?" certainly isn't one.

You know what this board is all about, so I'm not sure why you're surprised about people getting "worked up" about a team busting out all kinds of alt jerseys. It's never been an issue in the past until it was a Cleveland team. I think that the branding and identity-dilution are perfectly relevant topics for discussion on these boards.

[infrared41]

Again, the reasons why people are getting "worked up" are posted in those threads I linked to. It has nothing to do with the Cavs specifically, but more about using them as a case study for branding follies. The argument is pretty much that a team can dilute its identity and lose brand recognition by making some of the choices that the Cavs have during the LeBron era. Of course this is subjective, but I'm not sure that there are too many good arguments that dispute it. "Who cares?" certainly isn't one.

You know what this board is all about, so I'm not sure why you're surprised about people getting "worked up" about a team busting out all kinds of alt jerseys. It's never been an issue in the past until it was a Cleveland team. I think that the branding and identity-dilution are perfectly relevant topics for discussion on these boards.

I've made the same "what's the big deal, who cares?" point numerous times with numerous other teams. The fact that a Cleveland team is involved holds no significance with me. My issue isn't so much with the argument against it as it is with the amount of derision directed at those who don't see it the same way "the majority" sees it. Well that and I just like to see everyone get all worked up.

If you wonder why Cleveland fans get defensive I think it's because Cleveland fans do take a little more around here than most other fans. It's like our opinions don't hold any weight because our teams suck. It doesn't happen to me very often but that's probably due to the fact that I'm a veteran around here and I like to see myself as more rational and objective than a lot of the Cleveland fans on this board. But a lot of the newer and younger Cleveland fans around here are often times dismissed simply because they are a Cleveland fan. They get pissed and a flame war ensues.

I'm not whining or complaining about it I'm just pointing it out.

On topic, I'd like to see the Cavs go back to their 1976 look and leave it alone. One home uniform. One road uniform.

[ESTONES6]

The guy with the Peja Stojakovic (I'm pretty sure) avatar saves the day! Nice job.

Everyone on this thread agrees the cavs have too many jerseys.

Oh wait, except the three Cleveland fans here

First of all... I'm on record for saying i think 5 uniforms is too much. So, nice try.

Second. I think people are missing a point here. Yes, the circus carousel of colors is a bit too much. It would be understandable if they worse White uniforms at home, wine on the road, with the only time wearing the blue "cleveland" uniform is on the second night of a back to back on the road. Or, like the Lakers, wear it on Sunday games.

I will even say a Hardwood Classic Jersey would be ok, as long as it was worn 4 or 5 times in the year, as long as the other team wears a HWC uniform as well. When i first heard about HWC nights, i thought it was going to be BOTH teams wearing a vintage jersey, not just 1 team whenever they feel like.

Now, the point i think people are missing is this: A major reason the Cavs have 5 uniforms is for marketing. Cleveland is considered "small market" yet with sales and revenue, we are up there with Dallas, Boston, New York, LA, and Chicago. Cleveland is not half the City those aforementioned Cities are. So yes, it seems like a cheap cop-out, but the 5 jerseys this year, and the 5 last year is a way to keep people buying new jerseys, new t-shirts, new posters, etc. etc. etc.

You have got to remember... Cleveland's main objective is to keep LeBron happy. With every new uniform, LeBron sells another jersey and another pair of shoes. So yes, does it diminish the "brand" that everyone loves talking about, but there is a method for the madness.

[BBTV]

I disagree with the way you feel that Cleveland fans are treated around here, but we can take that up later (or just forget about it.)

You asked for a "rational and objective argument on why the number of jerseys is a bad thing", and I think I showed you some. Thoughts?

[infrared41]

I disagree with the way you feel that Cleveland fans are treated around here, but we can take that up later (or just forget about it.)

You asked for a "rational and objective argument on why the number of jerseys is a bad thing", and I think I showed you some. Thoughts?

I think you make some good points against The Cavs wearing 35 different uniforms. Personally, I don't have a problem with the number of uniforms so much as the amount of times they're worn. Maybe twice for each alternate all season would be enough. Otherwise, the jerseys aren't "special" they're just overexposed.

Conversely, I don't see wearing three alternate jerseys during a season as doing enough damage to water down the brand. If the jerseys were the only form of branding being used I would agree. But in the big picture the jerseys are a small part of the overall brand campaign. Every marker I've seen outside the alternate jerseys carries the official Cavs logo in official Cavs colors. I haven't seen a single sweatshirt, t-shirt, hat, etc. sold in stores around here that has anything other than the primary markers and colors. I'm not saying they don't exist but from my vantage point here in the heart of Cavs country, they simply aren't on the shelves. Same thing with secondary merchandise like blankets, stickers, etc. So are the jerseys really watering down the brand? I think we're just more sensitive to the jerseys because due to the nature of the boards we're more focused on them.

[ESTONES6]

I disagree with the way you feel that Cleveland fans are treated around here, but we can take that up later (or just forget about it.)

You asked for a "rational and objective argument on why the number of jerseys is a bad thing", and I think I showed you some. Thoughts?

I dunno. I don't think its dramatic difference in treatment, but i know i caught a lot of heat for having a love for Cleveland. I would be called a homer for everything, even when i was not even defending Cleveland. So i guess i can understand, but it's something i just shake off because, it's an online forum.

As for the idea of lessening the Brand... i get it... i do. I am also on record as saying how i love franchises like the Lakers, the Yankees, the Browns, who have kept the same basic colors and styles to all their uniforms throughout the year. If it were up to me, the Cavs would have the original uniforms with the "feather C" logo. a White home, wine road, and gold alternate.

But there are 2 arguments that defend the Cavs. The first being how we are a small market city (see me previous post). The second is this: The casual fan does not care 1 bit about the vintage look and carry the same brand the whole way. the vast majority of the casual fan enjoys seeing the different uniforms. So that leaves the die-hard fans who would be upset about re-branding a franchise. My argument to them is this: if you are truly a die-hard fan, the color jersey or the font of the name should not impact how you support the team.

That is kind of how i feel. i would love the Classic feather C logo or the candy cane stripe design for the Cavs for the last 40 years... but at the same time, I'm not going to stop watching or going to games.

Please do NOT call me a homer... it is called playing the Devil's Advocate.

[vmd9]

I had the feel that the Cavs were wearing the wrong jersey almost always this season. I made a jersey log thanks to a big photo research. Here are the results (keep in mind that I consider the navy alternative the wrong jersey even on the road, so yes, it is a little subjective, however, when you look at the results, you'll realize it should not be considered an "Alternative" jersey):

The Log:

2009:

October:

27th: vs Boston - Primary Red (Wrong)

28th: @ Toronto - Alternative Navy (Wrong)

30th: @ Minnesota - Alternative Navy (Wrong)

31st: vs Charlotte - Primary White (Correct)

November:

3rd: vs Washington - Primary White (Correct)

5th: vs Chicago - Primary White (Correct)

6th: @ New York - Primary Red (Correct)

11th: @ Orlando - Alternative Navy (Wrong)

12th: @ Miami - Primary Red (Correct)

14th: vs Utah - Primary White (Correct)

17th: vs Golden State - Primary White (Correct)

18th: @ Washington - Primary Red (Correct)

20th: @ Indiana - Primary Red (Correct)

21st: vs Philadelphia - Primary White (Correct)

25th: @ Detroit - Primary Red (Correct)

27th: @ Charlotte - Primary White (Wrong)

28th: vs Dallas - Primary White (Correct)

December:

2nd: vs Phoenix - Retro Blue (Wrong)

4th: vs Chicago - Primary White (Correct)

6th: @ Milwaukee - Alternative Navy (Wrong)

8th: @ Memphis - Alternative Navy (Wrong)

9th: @ Houston - Alternative Navy (Wrong)

11th: vs Portland - Retro Blue (Wrong)

13th: @ Oklahoma City - Alternative Navy (Wrong)

15h: vs New Jersey - Alternative Navy (Wrong)

16th: @ Philadelphia - Primary Red (Correct)

18th: vs Milwaukee - Primary White (Correct)

20th: @ Dallas - Primary White (Wrong)

21st: @ Phoenix - Alternative Navy (Wrong)

23rd: @ Sacramento - Alternative Navy (Wrong)

25th: @ Los Angeles Lakers - Alternative Navy (Wrong)

27th: vs Houston - Primary White (Correct)

29th: @ Atlanta - Primary Red (Correct)

30th: vs Atlanta - Primary White (Correct)

2010:

January:

2nd: @ New Jersey - Primary White (Wrong)

3rd: vs Charlotte - Primary White (Correct)

6th: vs Washington - Retro Maroon (Wrong)

8th: @ Denver - Retro Blue (Wrong)

10th: @ Portland - Retro Blue (Wrong)

11th: @ Golden State - Retro Blue (Wrong)

14th: @ Utah - Primary White (Wrong)

16th: @ Los Angeles Clippers - Retro Blue (Wrong)

19th: vs Toronto - Primary White (Correct)

21st: vs Los Angeles Lakers - Retro Maroon (Wrong)

23rd: vs Oklahoma City - Retro Blue (Wrong)

Total games played: 45

Total home games: 20

Times correct jersey (Primary White) was worn at home : 13

Times wrong jerseys were worn at home : 7

Times Primary Red was worn at home: 1

Times Alternative Navy was worn at home: 1

Times Retro Blue was worn at home: 3

Times Retro Maroon was worn at home: 2

Total road games: 25

Times correct jersey (Primary Red) was worn on the road : 7

Times wrong jerseys were worn on the road: 18

Times Primary White was worn on the road: 4

Times Alternative Navy was worn on the road: 10

Times Retro Blue was worn on the road: 4

Times Retro Maroon was worn on the road: 0

Final statistics:

Times Primary White was worn: 17

Times Primary Red was worn: 8

Times Alternative Navy was worn: 11

Times Retro Blue was worn: 7

Times Retro Maroon was worn: 2

Times correct jersey was worn: 20

Times wrong jersey was worn: 25

What amazes me is the amount of times they wore the Primary reds on the road; just 7 out of 25 times.

Feel free to add new info for the log and comment on the topic. Thanks.

what amazes me is the amount of time you wasted figuring this out! who cares what they wear? You don't like it fine, change the channel. Us Cavs fans really don't care how many uniforms they wear, and everyone knows if you put #23 on any jersey it's going to sell...

[The_Admiral]

Cavaliers fans making White Sox fans look comparatively at peace with the world in this thread

[crashcarson15]

The only one I have a real problem with is the wine and gold throwback.

Are all y'all complaining about the Raptors having 4 jerseys this year? Or the Blazers having (at least) 4?

Seriously, most teams have an alternate and a good number add a throwback a year.

[The_Admiral]

I can't speak for other posters, but I don't like anyone else's muddled identities either, and I'll be happy to kvetch about the Raptors and the Nuggets and the Bulls and anyone else should their respective muddling warrant respective topics. Look, I was willing to grit my teeth and tolerate the stupid alt-that's-not and sporadic throwbacks, but when they did that stupid alternate last year, the Wacky Re-Color Concept Thread brought to life, they earned the derision. "It's a throwback from when we sucked, but now it's royal blue, to honor message boards, which are of course known for deserving honor and being royal blue." Come on. That was ridiculous, a Knicks-ganking throwback to the crappy era you escaped is ridiculous, the Washington Redskins-recolored version of that throwback is ridiculous. It's all ridiculous. Don't be a bunch of flailing martyrs because people point out bad design on a design forum.

[BBTV]

I dunno. I don't think its dramatic difference in treatment, but i know i caught a lot of heat for having a love for Cleveland. I would be called a homer for everything, even when i was not even defending Cleveland. So i guess i can understand, but it's something i just shake off because, it's an online forum.

As for the idea of lessening the Brand... i get it... i do. I am also on record as saying how i love franchises like the Lakers, the Yankees, the Browns, who have kept the same basic colors and styles to all their uniforms throughout the year. If it were up to me, the Cavs would have the original uniforms with the "feather C" logo. a White home, wine road, and gold alternate.

But there are 2 arguments that defend the Cavs. The first being how we are a small market city (see me previous post). The second is this: The casual fan does not care 1 bit about the vintage look and carry the same brand the whole way. the vast majority of the casual fan enjoys seeing the different uniforms. So that leaves the die-hard fans who would be upset about re-branding a franchise. My argument to them is this: if you are truly a die-hard fan, the color jersey or the font of the name should not impact how you support the team.

That is kind of how i feel. i would love the Classic feather C logo or the candy cane stripe design for the Cavs for the last 40 years... but at the same time, I'm not going to stop watching or going to games.

Please do NOT call me a homer... it is called playing the Devil's Advocate.

Well your first 100 posts and topics were all about Cleveland, and your avatar and sig are / were all Cleveland, and it seems like every third word you posted was "Cleveland", so yeah - you're going to get called out about being Cleveland-centric. I don't have an issue with you, just sayin' that you kinda brought the "homer" thing on yourself. It just seems to me that the posters here from Cleveland feel an extra need to let everyone know that they're from Cleveland, and Cleveland is great. I've never been there - I'm sure it's a fine place and there's fine people there. I just wonder sometimes if any of them have actually journeyed more than 50 miles outside of there. Just kidding.... sort of. Again - not starting any trouble, just pointing out a potential reason why Cleveland posters may feel like they're treated a little differently. Again, I don't really see it, but if it's there, that's probably why.

what amazes me is the amount of time you wasted figuring this out! who cares what they wear? You don't like it fine, change the channel. Us Cavs fans really don't care how many uniforms they wear, and everyone knows if you put #23 on any jersey it's going to sell...

Do you understand the point of this forum at all? I have to question whether or not you do. "Who cares what they wear?" Seriously? For real?

"Us Cavs fans" apparently don't get taught English in Cleveland-area schools. "We" Cavs fans. We.

Way to disprove the notion of Cleveland fans seeing something about their team and instantly getting defensive.

The only one I have a real problem with is the wine and gold throwback.

Are all y'all complaining about the Raptors having 4 jerseys this year? Or the Blazers having (at least) 4?

Seriously, most teams have an alternate and a good number add a throwback a year.

This thread was started about the Cavs. If it was started about any of those other teams, then we'd be commenting on them. Personally, I don't see enough of those other teams to know what their issues may be, but it's irrelevant to this thread anyway. The whole "it's OK because someone else also did it" thing never works. If it did, nobody would ever get speeding tickets.

[infrared41]

I can't speak for other posters, but I don't like anyone else's muddled identities either, and I'll be happy to kvetch about the Raptors and the Nuggets and the Bulls and anyone else should their respective muddling warrant respective topics. Look, I was willing to grit my teeth and tolerate the stupid alt-that's-not and sporadic throwbacks, but when they did that stupid alternate last year, the Wacky Re-Color Concept Thread brought to life, they earned the derision. "It's a throwback from when we sucked, but now it's royal blue, to honor message boards, which are of course known for deserving honor and being royal blue." Come on. That was ridiculous, a Knicks-ganking throwback to the crappy era you escaped is ridiculous, the Washington Redskins-recolored version of that throwback is ridiculous. It's all ridiculous. Don't be a bunch of flailing martyrs because people point out bad design on a design forum.

Flailing martyrs? Seriously?

How about don't act like a sanctimonious blowhard just because a few people don't share your opinion on a particular subject? As I said before, there is no intellectual high ground in this debate. But nice use of kvetch. That's one we don't a lot of see around here.

[The_Admiral]

Sometimes I look up words in my posts to see how often they're used here. Can you believe I'm only the second person to ever mention Philip Roth (Brian in Boston mentioned picking up The Plot Against America)?

[BBTV]

Except that nobody has disagreed with anything any more intelligent than "who cares what they wear?" or "don't pick on Cleveland pick on someone else!" or "everyone hates Cleveland!".

Step back for a minute and re-read the whole thread, as well as the ones I posted. I think that there was some good debating in those threads, but this thread has been "quit picking on Cleveland", "woe is me", "fire Omar!". Well, maybe not that last one.

[infrared41]

Except that nobody has disagreed with anything any more intelligent than "who cares what they wear?" or "don't pick on Cleveland pick on someone else!" or "everyone hates Cleveland!".

Step back for a minute and re-read the whole thread, as well as the ones I posted. I think that there was some good debating in those threads, but this thread has been "quit picking on Cleveland", "woe is me", "fire Omar!". Well, maybe not that last one.

What fun would that be? It's much more fun to swoop in and talk out of my ass. Seriously though, you do have a point.

On topic, I thought I presented a pretty decent counterpoint to the idea that the alternates are resulting in the Cavs "watering down their brand." Thoughts?

Oh and FIRE OMAR!

[infrared41]

Sometimes I look up words in my posts to see how often they're used here. Can you believe I'm only the second person to ever mention Philip Roth (Brian in Boston mentioned picking up The Plot Against America)?

Yeah. I can believe it because most of the people here aren't all that concerned with dropping names for the sole purpose of hoping it makes them look smart. What's next? A Daniel Dennett reference?

[BBTV]

Except that nobody has disagreed with anything any more intelligent than "who cares what they wear?" or "don't pick on Cleveland pick on someone else!" or "everyone hates Cleveland!".

Step back for a minute and re-read the whole thread, as well as the ones I posted. I think that there was some good debating in those threads, but this thread has been "quit picking on Cleveland", "woe is me", "fire Omar!". Well, maybe not that last one.

What fun would that be? It's much more fun to swoop in and talk out of my ass. Seriously though, you do have a point.

On topic, I thought I presented a pretty decent counterpoint to the idea that the alternates are resulting in the Cavs "watering down their brand." Thoughts?

Oh and FIRE OMAR!

Yeah... I disagree! I think that the jerseys are extremely important, since that's what the players are actually wearing in the games and in posters and promotional materials. Maybe not so much if the team doesn't have any "stars", but nearly every shot of LeBron that anyone will see has him wearing a Cavs uniform - and if the logo is visible at all, it's really small.

Fire Omar!