Draft Question

[charger77]

A MLB or NHL team can draft a player, then the player can go college and play their sport before going pro. Why does this not happen in the NFL or NBA?

[crashcarson15]

A MLB or NHL team can draft a player, then the player can go college and play their sport before going pro. Why does this not happen in the NFL or NBA?

No, it actually can't happen in Major League Baseball. You've gotta sign a player within a couple months, and once he's signed a contract, he's no longer NCAA-eligible.

In the NHL, the age at which players are ready and the age at which they are drafted is different - thus why many players don't sign right away if they're NCAA athletes (I think the teams have like 3 years or something to sign a player) or why players spend an extra year (or two) in the CHL.

As far as the NFL goes, players aren't developmentally ready coming out of high school, and many of the top recruits (read: Terrelle Pryor) coming out of high school aren't guys you'd wanna use a top pick on. Teams wouldn't be able to sign the player for 3 or 4 years anyways, and the signing date prohibits this.

In the NBA, their rookie signing date also prohibits this (although in the NBA and NFL, almost all rookies will sign), as once you declare for the draft, you're NCAA-ineligible. This is the same with football.

So in short, the signing dates in baseball, football, and basketball (as well as the draft declaration rules if you're coming out early in basketball and football) prohibit the system from being like hockey.

[charger77]

A MLB or NHL team can draft a player, then the player can go college and play their sport before going pro. Why does this not happen in the NFL or NBA?

No, it actually can't happen in Major League Baseball. You've gotta sign a player within a couple months, and once he's signed a contract, he's no longer NCAA-eligible.

In the NHL, the age at which players are ready and the age at which they are drafted is different - thus why many players don't sign right away if they're NCAA athletes (I think the teams have like 3 years or something to sign a player) or why players spend an extra year (or two) in the CHL.

As far as the NFL goes, players aren't developmentally ready coming out of high school, and many of the top recruits (read: Terrelle Pryor) coming out of high school aren't guys you'd wanna use a top pick on. Teams wouldn't be able to sign the player for 3 or 4 years anyways, and the signing date prohibits this.

In the NBA, their rookie signing date also prohibits this (although in the NBA and NFL, almost all rookies will sign), as once you declare for the draft, you're NCAA-ineligible. This is the same with football.

So in short, the signing dates in baseball, football, and basketball (as well as the draft declaration rules if you're coming out early in basketball and football) prohibit the system from being like hockey.

Follow up questions:

Recently Wayne Gretzky's kid was drafted by the Cubs. However he is going to SDSU to play college ball. Does that mean the Cubs no longer have his rights? Jonathan Toews was drafted in 2006 but played at North Dakota in 2007 why can't that happen in the other leagues.

For example, LeBron (assuming he didn't sign with an agent) gets dafted by Cleveland in 2003, but decides to play for Ohio State for a season or two before making the jump to the NBA or a stud High School QB (doesn't sign an agent) gets drafted by a team, but goes to the NCAA to mature as a player then goes to the team that drafted him once he is done?

[dfwabel]

A MLB or NHL team can draft a player, then the player can go college and play their sport before going pro. Why does this not happen in the NFL or NBA?

No, it actually can't happen in Major League Baseball. You've gotta sign a player within a couple months, and once he's signed a contract, he's no longer NCAA-eligible.

In the NHL, the age at which players are ready and the age at which they are drafted is different - thus why many players don't sign right away if they're NCAA athletes (I think the teams have like 3 years or something to sign a player) or why players spend an extra year (or two) in the CHL.

As far as the NFL goes, players aren't developmentally ready coming out of high school, and many of the top recruits (read: Terrelle Pryor) coming out of high school aren't guys you'd wanna use a top pick on. Teams wouldn't be able to sign the player for 3 or 4 years anyways, and the signing date prohibits this.

In the NBA, their rookie signing date also prohibits this (although in the NBA and NFL, almost all rookies will sign), as once you declare for the draft, you're NCAA-ineligible. This is the same with football.

So in short, the signing dates in baseball, football, and basketball (as well as the draft declaration rules if you're coming out early in basketball and football) prohibit the system from being like hockey.

Follow up questions:

Recently Wayne Gretzky's kid was drafted by the Cubs. However he is going to SDSU to play college ball. Does that mean the Cubs no longer have his rights? Jonathan Toews was drafted in 2006 but played at North Dakota in 2007 why can't that happen in the other leagues.

For example, LeBron (assuming he didn't sign with an agent) gets dafted by Cleveland in 2003, but decides to play for Ohio State for a season or two before making the jump to the NBA or a stud High School QB (doesn't sign an agent) gets drafted by a team, but goes to the NCAA to mature as a player then goes to the team that drafted him once he is done?

Basically, each comes down the leagues CBA.

LeBron case: He was drafted under the old CBA, which ran out in 2004. The current CBA states that a player must be 19 to be draft eligible and must be out of high school for one season.

Gretzky case: MLB teams have rights from the date of the first year player draft to 11:59 PM on August 15 of that year to sign a drafted player. If a player does not sign and if they are still eligible to be drafted (meaning they have not signed either a MLB or MiLB contract), they can g back into the eligible player pool but cannot be re-drafted by the same team.

NFL: Your example cannot occur. The CBA specifically states that a player can only be eligible unless "three (NFL) seasons have begun and ended following his graduating class with which he entered or with which we graduated with, which ever is earlier"

[charger77]

I figured it was a CBA issue, I was just wondering on the why.

[dfwabel]

^^^ Also remember that in MLB, the draft only consists of players from Canada and the USA (including Puerto Rico and any other Commonwealth, Territory or Possession of the United States of America).

[WSU151]

Teams wouldn't be able to sign the player for 3 or 4 years anyways, and the signing date prohibits this.

What?

In the NBA, their rookie signing date also prohibits this (although in the NBA and NFL, almost all rookies will sign), as once you declare for the draft, you're NCAA-ineligible. This is the same with football.

Not true. A basketball player can declare for the draft, but only when he hires an agent does his NCAA eligibility expire. If he declares for the draft and doesn't hire an agent, he can go back to school. Football players don't have that option...once they declare, they're done with the NCAA.

[Lights Out]

As it turns out, a high school player has been drafted without going to college once in the NFL's history: Andy Livingston, drafted by the Bears in 1964.

[crashcarson15]

Teams wouldn't be able to sign the player for 3 or 4 years anyways, and the signing date prohibits this.

What?

In the NBA, their rookie signing date also prohibits this (although in the NBA and NFL, almost all rookies will sign), as once you declare for the draft, you're NCAA-ineligible. This is the same with football.

Not true. A basketball player can declare for the draft, but only when he hires an agent does his NCAA eligibility expire. If he declares for the draft and doesn't hire an agent, he can go back to school. Football players don't have that option...once they declare, they're done with the NCAA.

I'm pretty sure that if you declare and don't "remove" your name from the hat before the draft, you still lose your elegibility in basketball.

[dfwabel]

From the NCAA Manual:

12.2.4 Draft and Inquiry.

12.2.4.1 Inquiry. An individual may inquire of a professional sports organization about eligibility for a professional-

league player draft or request information about the individual's market value without affecting his or

her amateur status.

12.2.4.2 Draft List. After initial full-time collegiate enrollment, an individual loses amateur status in a particular

sport when the individual asks to be placed on the draft list or supplemental draft list of a professional

league in that sport, even though: (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02)

a- The individual asks that his or her name be withdrawn from the draft list prior to the actual draft;

b- The individual's name remains on the list but he or she is not drafted; or

c- The individual is drafted but does not sign an agreement with any professional athletics team.

12.2.4.2.1 Exception?Basketball?Four-Year College Student-Athlete.

12.2.4.2.1.1 Men's Basketball. In men's basketball, an enrolled student-athlete may enter a professional

league's draft one time during his collegiate career without jeopardizing eligibility in that sport,

provided: (Adopted: 4/30/09 effective 8/1/09)

a- The student-athlete requests that his name be removed from the draft list and declares his intent

to resume intercollegiate participation not later than the end of May 8 of the year in which the

draft will occur;

b- The student-athlete's declaration of intent is submitted in writing to the institution's director of

athletics; and

c- The student-athlete is not drafted.

12.2.4.2.1.2 Women's Basketball. In women's basketball, an enrolled student-athlete may enter a

professional league's draft one time during her collegiate career without jeopardizing eligibility in that

sport, provided the student-athlete is not drafted by any team in that league and the student-athlete

declares her intention to resume intercollegiate participation within 30 days after the draft. The student-

athlete's declaration of intent shall be in writing to the institution's director of athletics. (Adopted:

1/11/94, Revised: 1/10/95, 1/14/97 effective 4/16/97, 4/24/03 effective 8/1/03 for student-athletes entering

a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/03, 4/30/09 effective 8/1/09)

12.2.4.2.2 Exception?Basketball?Two-Year College Prospective Student-Athlete. A prospective

student-athlete enrolled at a two-year collegiate institution in basketball may enter a professional

league's draft one time during his or her collegiate career without jeopardizing eligibility in that sport, provided

the prospective student-athlete is not drafted by any team in that league. (Adopted: 4/24/03 effective

8/1/03, for student-athletes entering a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/03)

12.2.4.2.3 Exception?Football. [FBS/FCS] In football, an enrolled student-athlete (as opposed to a

prospective student-athlete) may enter the National Football League draft one time during his collegiate

career without jeopardizing eligibility in that sport, provided the student-athlete is not drafted by any team

in that league and the student-athlete declares his intention to resume intercollegiate participation within

72 hours following the National Football League draft declaration date. The student-athlete's declaration

of intent shall be in writing to the institution's director of athletics. (Adopted: 10/31/02, Revised: 4/14/03,

12/15/06)

12.2.4.2.4 Exception?Sports Other Than Basketball and Football. An enrolled student-athlete

in a sport other than basketball or football may enter a professional league's draft one time during his or her

collegiate career without jeopardizing his or her eligibility in the applicable sport, provided the student-athlete

is not drafted and within 72 hours following the draft he or she declares his or her intention to resume

participation in intercollegiate athletics. The student-athlete's declaration of intent shall be in writing to the

institution's director of athletics. (Adopted: 4/26/07 effective 8/1/07)

12.2.4.3 Negotiations. An individual may request information about professional market value without affecting

his or her amateur status. Further, the individual, his or her legal guardians or the institution's professional

sports counseling panel may enter into negotiations with a professional sports organization without the loss of

the individual's amateur status. An individual who retains an agent shall lose amateur status. (Adopted: 1/10/92)

[WSU151]

Teams wouldn't be able to sign the player for 3 or 4 years anyways, and the signing date prohibits this.

What?

In the NBA, their rookie signing date also prohibits this (although in the NBA and NFL, almost all rookies will sign), as once you declare for the draft, you're NCAA-ineligible. This is the same with football.

Not true. A basketball player can declare for the draft, but only when he hires an agent does his NCAA eligibility expire. If he declares for the draft and doesn't hire an agent, he can go back to school. Football players don't have that option...once they declare, they're done with the NCAA.

I'm pretty sure that if you declare and don't "remove" your name from the hat before the draft, you still lose your elegibility in basketball.

I honestly didn't know the player had to remove name from draft. I thought he could get drafted, but if he didn't like the selection, he could go back. Makes sense now. That rule is probably there to protect teams' interests, as any player could theoretically manipulate who they were drafted by, if they could keep going back to school after the selection.

Thanks.

[slapshot]

I'm not exactly sure how hockey works in that respect. I've seen many NCAA players listed as "property" (for lack of a better term) of an NHL organization. It may be that the players continue their college or junior careers up until a certain age.

I know that if the Bruins did not keep 19-year-old Tyler Seguin on the NHL roster, he would have been returned to his junior team, because he was too young to play in the AHL.

I have also seen NCAA players play on AHL rosters within a week after their NCAA season ends, but I can't confirm if they ended up with the teams that held their rights, or if they all signed 10-day ATO (amateur tryout) or PTO (professional tryout) contracts.

For that matter, I'm not even sure if a player can return to his NCAA or Junior team if he signs an ATO.

Maybe someone else can shed some light on this.

[dfwabel]

I'm not exactly sure how hockey works in that respect. I've seen many NCAA players listed as "property" (for lack of a better term) of an NHL organization. It may be that the players continue their college or junior careers up until a certain age.

I know that if the Bruins did not keep 19-year-old Tyler Seguin on the NHL roster, he would have been returned to his junior team, because he was too young to play in the AHL.

I have also seen NCAA players play on AHL rosters within a week after their NCAA season ends, but I can't confirm if they ended up with the teams that held their rights, or if they all signed 10-day ATO (amateur tryout) or PTO (professional tryout) contracts.

For that matter, I'm not even sure if a player can return to his NCAA or Junior team if he signs an ATO.

Maybe someone else can shed some light on this.

From the NCAA Manual:

12.2.3 Competition

12.2.3.1 Competition against Professionals. An individual may participate singly or as a member of an

amateur team against professional athletes or professional teams. (Revised: 8/24/07)

12.2.3.2 Competition with Professionals. An individual shall not be eligible for intercollegiate athletics

in a sport if the individual ever competed on a professional team (per Bylaw 12.02.4) in that sport. However,

an individual may compete on a tennis, golf, two-person sand volleyball or two-person synchronized diving

team with persons who are competing for cash or a comparable prize, provided the individual does not receive

payment of any kind for such participation. (Revised: 1/9/96 effective 8/1/96, 1/14/97, 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02)

12.2.3.2.1 Exception?Competition Before Initial Full-Time Collegiate Enrollment?Sports

Other Than Men?s Ice Hockey and Skiing. In sports other than men?s ice hockey and skiing, before initial

full-time collegiate enrollment, an individual may compete on a professional team (per Bylaw 12.02.4),

provided he or she does not receive more than actual and necessary expenses to participate on the team.

(Adopted: 4/29/10 effective 8/1/10; applicable to student-athletes who initially enroll full time in a collegiate

institution on or after 8/1/10)

12.2.3.2.2 Professional Player as Team Member. An individual may participate with a professional

on a team, provided the professional is not being paid by a professional team or league to play as a member

of that team (e.g., summer basketball leagues with teams composed of both professional and amateur

athletes).

12.2.3.2.3 Professional Coach or Referee. Participation on a team that includes a professional coach

or referee does not cause the team to be classified as a professional team.

12.2.3.2.4 Major Junior A Ice Hockey. Ice hockey teams in the United States and Canada, classified

by the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association as major junior A teams, are considered professional teams

under NCAA legislation.

12.2.3.2.4.1 Limitation on Restoration of Eligibility. An appeal for restoration of eligibility

may be submitted on behalf of an individual who has participated on a major junior A ice hockey team

under the provisions of Bylaw 14.12; however, such individual shall be denied at least the first year of

intercollegiate athletics competition in ice hockey at the certifying institution and shall be charged with

the loss of at least one season of eligibility in ice hockey. (Revised: 1/11/89)

12.2.3.2.5 Exception?Olympic/National Teams. It is permissible for an individual (prospective

student-athlete or student-athletes) to participate on Olympic or national teams that are competing for

prize money or are being compensated by the governing body to participate in a specific event, provided the

student-athlete does not accept prize money or any other compensation (other than actual and necessary

expenses). (Adopted: 8/8/02)

[sportsfan0518]

LeBron case: He was drafted under the old CBA, which ran out in 2004. The current CBA states that a player must be 19 to be draft eligible and must be out of high school for one season.

I thought that ended in 2005, because Dwight Howard and JR Smith got drafted out of high school in 2004.

[Cosmic]

Regarding the OP, I think a better question would be, "Why can't the NHL wait to draft players until they are ready to play in the league, like the NFL does?"

In the NFL, you expect some of your draft picks to start for you the same year they are drafted. It makes it much easier to draft for your needs, and I think it makes the draft more relevant to fans and more rewarding to follow. You can't even play in the AHL until you are 20, but the NHL drafts kids at 17/18? Doesn't make a lotta sense to me. I know that's the way it's always been and it will likely never change, but I think you should draft a couple of years later.

Does anyone know of a comparison done between first round busts in the NFL vs. NHL? It would be subjective as to what a "bust" is, but still interesting if someone's done the leg work...

[Jhero34]

it would be hard to change the age of draftees at this point, it would result in either no draft one or two years or a draft picking through the past few years rejects. Most hockey players who go to the NCAA go for a season or two after they finish high school playing in a Junior AAA league like the BCHL or AJHL as to not affect their eligibility. With the draft age being 18 most of these players are drafted by an NHL team and left to develop further playing a high level of hockey. Once the NCAA season ends, you always have an influx of collegiate players into the minor leagues as teams try to find that undrafted diamond in the rough. Occasionally even players finishing up their last year of CHL eligibility ( 20 years of age) join with their drafted clubs farm team for the month or two remaining to get some time under their teams coaches and into the team system. The benefits of this are that each team has the ability to follow each players development as well as aid each player in areas that they need to improve. Drafted players are given the time to develop into the players their teams think they can be.

[Cosmic]

I also think changing the draft age would be craziness, but I'm just saying that I think your league benefits from drafting players who are ready to play in said league.