North Dakota to Drop Fighting Sioux Moniker

[IceCap]

* The official name of the Standing Rock tribe is the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. If the word "Sioux" is so offensive, as some in here claim, then why does the tribe refer to itself as Sioux?

It's not about the name Sioux being offensive. Stop moving the goal posts.

The problem is that UND failed to get permission from both Sioux tribes to use the name.

I'm neutral on the name change issue, but I disagree with characterizing the issue as failure to get permission from the tribe. Why does the NCAA have a rule requiring the university have to get tribal permission for nicknames the NCAA has deemed "hostile and abusive"?

People keep forgetting the NCAA is a private organization. They can make up any rule they want, and its members have to follow them, or they're free to leave.

Using the name doesn't violate any intellectual property right that the Sioux tribes own, so the NCAA isn't simply mandating that member universities comply with federal or state trademark law. The Sioux nickname was considered offensive by the NCAA, and the university has failed to qualify for the NCAA-specified exception to use an otherwise offensive nickname, so the nickname is deemed "hostile and abusive" and not allow for use.

I don't know about that. FSU got permission from the Seminole tribe to continue to use the Seminole name. "Seminole" certainly isn't an offensive name. I think it's just a case of the NCAA realizing that the use of Native imagery and names in the past has lead to the widespread acceptance of racist terms and imagery. In order to rectify that the NCAA wants to make sure the tribes teams are named after have given their consent for teams to use their names.

[Gothamite]

I'm neutral on the name change issue, but I disagree with characterizing the issue as failure to get permission from the tribe. Why does the NCAA have a rule requiring the university have to get tribal permission for nicknames the NCAA has deemed "hostile and abusive"?

This is where I give the NCAA a whole lot of credit (which I am otherwise extremely disinclined to do so).

The organization considers the names out of bounds, but accepts that not everyone agrees. So, as a compromise, they are willing to make exceptions for any schools which can secure permission from the nations named.

It is a very reasonable compromise to a contentious issue, remarkably so for the NCAA and it is extremely unfortunate that ND couldn't make use of it.

[Rambulance]

There was talk on one of the local sports radio stations(Chicago) that the reason these conferences are expanding to become Super Conferences is to secede and form their own collegiate association, leaving the NCAA. Interesting idea for sure. Imagine the NCAA Tournament or a Bowl Game featuring Wichita State vs Southern Illinois as a final because the major conferences boycott.

[IceCap]

There was talk on one of the local sports radio stations(Chicago) that the reason these conferences are expanding to become Super Conferences is to secede and form their own collegiate association, leaving the NCAA. Interesting idea for sure. Imagine the NCAA Tournament or a Bowl Game featuring Wichita State vs Southern Illinois as a final because the major conferences boycott.

Yeah, and I have some ocean front property in Saskatchewan I'd like to sell

[Mingjai]

* The official name of the Standing Rock tribe is the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. If the word "Sioux" is so offensive, as some in here claim, then why does the tribe refer to itself as Sioux?

It's not about the name Sioux being offensive. Stop moving the goal posts.

The problem is that UND failed to get permission from both Sioux tribes to use the name.

I'm neutral on the name change issue, but I disagree with characterizing the issue as failure to get permission from the tribe. Why does the NCAA have a rule requiring the university have to get tribal permission for nicknames the NCAA has deemed "hostile and abusive"?

People keep forgetting the NCAA is a private organization. They can make up any rule they want, and its members have to follow them, or they're free to leave.

I agree, which is why I say this is a contracts case, not an intellectual property case. I suppose there may be a contracts issue on the extent to which NCAA can create new rules and impose them on the members--the NCAA definitely has the power, but there may be a clause for what constitutes unreasonable use or abuse of that power.

Using the name doesn't violate any intellectual property right that the Sioux tribes own, so the NCAA isn't simply mandating that member universities comply with federal or state trademark law. The Sioux nickname was considered offensive by the NCAA, and the university has failed to qualify for the NCAA-specified exception to use an otherwise offensive nickname, so the nickname is deemed "hostile and abusive" and not allow for use.

I don't know about that. FSU got permission from the Seminole tribe to continue to use the Seminole name. "Seminole" certainly isn't an offensive name. I think it's just a case of the NCAA realizing that the use of Native imagery and names in the past has lead to the widespread acceptance of racist terms and imagery. In order to rectify that the NCAA wants to make sure the tribes teams are named after have given their consent for teams to use their names.

Look back at the initial releases when the NCAA came out with this policy a few years ago--the exact language was "hostile" and "abusive" being the triggers causing, e.g., FSU and Utah to have to go to the Seminole and Ute tribes for approval. In FSU's case, Seminole was initially found "hostile and abusive," but they qualified for the exception by gaining approval.

[gosioux76]

* The official name of the Standing Rock tribe is the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. If the word "Sioux" is so offensive, as some in here claim, then why does the tribe refer to itself as Sioux?

It's not about the name Sioux being offensive. Stop moving the goal posts.

The problem is that UND failed to get permission from both Sioux tribes to use the name.

I'm neutral on the name change issue, but I disagree with characterizing the issue as failure to get permission from the tribe. Why does the NCAA have a rule requiring the university have to get tribal permission for nicknames the NCAA has deemed "hostile and abusive"? Using the name doesn't violate any intellectual property right that the Sioux tribes own, so the NCAA isn't simply mandating that member universities comply with federal or state trademark law. The Sioux nickname was considered offensive by the NCAA, and the university has failed to qualify for the NCAA-specified exception to use an otherwise offensive nickname, so the nickname is deemed "hostile and abusive" and not allow for use.

To argue otherwise would be like saying that the issue in a criminal case isn't whether the defendant committed a felony, but whether the defendant has a justification for committing the felony. While the outcome of the case may hinge on the justification of the crime, the case is still about the crime itself.

This case in not an intellectual property case. It is a contracts case.

I don't get how intellectual property or contracts ever became part of this discussion.

The NCAA took a stand on a social issue. That's it.

You look around and see the biggest offenders in this issue, in my mind the Indians and Redskins, unwilling to make a change, undoubtedly because of the millions they stand to lose by changing offending names or logos.

The NCAA decided it could do something about the situation. And as Gothamite pointed out, they did it giving each university the chance to get the proper approvals.

For an organization that seems to do little right, the NCAA can be viewed as progressive on this subject.

[ColeJ]

what would the NCAA ruling be if a team wanted to use native imagery and a native team name that was generic and not affiliated with any specific tribe? like the braves or chiefs...

would they have to get permission from EVERYONE, or no one?

and as much as i know everyone here hates the notre dame argument... it makes sense to me. why is fighting sioux offensive, with a logo that positively and accurately represents a sioux warrior... when the notre dame fighting irish use a logo and mascot that depicts a cartoon leprechaun, as if that is a respectful and dignified way to portay ireland and people of irish descent? it just seems silly. it's like saying that chief wahoo is fine, but the minnesota vikings have to get written permission from multiple scandinavian nations to continue using it.

the only discussion that makes even a tiny bit of sense is the intellectual property case, which while i don't agree with it, i can at least understand where it's coming from. but even then, i'd think that the NCAA and UND would need to wait for a cease and desist letter or something, at least.

and yes, i know this is a private organization and membership is voluntary and blah blah blah. my argument isn't based on if i think the ncaa has a right to do this or not, because they obviously do. my argument is simply that it's ridiculous for them to force this issue here, when they have just as much right to NOT push it. they're well within their rights to do what they please, but i don't have to like it, and there's nothing wrong with a healthy debate over if their choice was the right one or not.

it's not as open and shut as people on either side of this issue choose to believe... but this site always has had a problem with tunnel vision.

[The_Admiral]

Leprechauns aren't Irish people, they're folk creatures. Americans didn't kill leprechauns, inasmuch as leprechauns are fictitious.

[Gothamite]

Exactly.

As soon as there are Irish-American organizations who object to Notre Dame's name and mascot, as some Native American organizations have for names like this one, then the comparison will be a valid one.

this site always has had a problem with tunnel vision.

You new to the InterWebs?

[ColeJ]

to me, the leprechaun NOT being real seems like it's even more offensive... i'm part irish myself, and i'm not particularly offended. (though i'm probably about as much native american too, on my mom's side... and still, not offended by anything but redskins).

just seems like a tiny little leprechaun in all green with clovers on him is a caricature of the word "irish". that's why they chose it. there's no reason for them to pick that particular part of irish lore, other than st. patricks day and lucky charms cereal make us think of leprechauns when we think of ireland.

and the whole "when irish people get upset and ask for a change, then they'll change it" argument... how many tribes of sioux have asked UND to change it? none. 1 said keep it, and the other said "we don't vote on the white man's crap" more or less.

i guess i just fail to see how the sioux tribe is any different than the nation of ireland. sure, some native tribes have bitched... but that would be like making the irish change their name because the welsh are offended. i dunno... just seems like a knee-jerk reaction to one of the few native teams that actually does it right.

[Gothamite]

Agreed that ND was about the best example of how to do this right, but that's why the NCAA has procedures for allowing the teams to keep these names. Yes, it is a shame that the second nation decided to refuse permission, but that was their right to do so.

Find a single Irish-American organization which is opposed to Notre Dame's name or logo, and we'll talk. Until then, it's a red herring as there are legitimate Native American organizations which do object to native mascots on principle.

[whitedawg22]

Aside from whether any specific Irish heritage group has protested it, the nickname "Fighting Irish" is pretty damn offensive. It's basically a caricature of a negative stereotype of the early 1900s - that the Irish were drunken brawlers. You can think of your own examples of names like this that would apply to other ethnic groups. The fact that no specific organization has come out as opposed to the name doesn't mean that the name isn't a racially-based stereotype.

[ColeJ]

Aside from whether any specific Irish heritage group has protested it, the nickname "Fighting Irish" is pretty damn offensive. It's basically a caricature of a negative stereotype of the early 1900s - that the Irish were drunken brawlers. You can think of your own examples of names like this that would apply to other ethnic groups. The fact that no specific organization has come out as opposed to the name doesn't mean that the name isn't a racially-based stereotype.

thank you.

and for the record, i'm not saying that fighting irish needs to changed. cause it doesn't.

hell... the only names i think should be changed are the cleveland indians (unless they start using imagery from India. lol) and washington redskins. and neither of those have anything at all to do with college athletics.

[Gothamite]

Even if what you say is true (and I'm not willing to concede that) there's a distinction - the United States never did to the Irish what we did to the natives. And Irish-Americans have fully integrated, reaping the benefits of our society in a way that Native Americans cannot.

Racism and oppression against the Irish is a quaint memory, an absurd and unfathomable joke. Not all ethnic groups are so lucky.

[OnWis97]

Even if what you say is true (and I'm not willing to concede that) there's a distinction - the United States never did to the Irish what we did to the natives. And Irish-Americans have fully integrated, reaping the benefits of our society in a way that Native Americans cannot.

Racism and oppression against the Irish is a quaint memory, an absurd and unfathomable joke. Not all ethnic groups are so lucky.

Further, white people naming their teams after cultures they (seemingly) know little about aside from sterotypes* you could pick up on old cartoons is not the same as (I suspect) Irish Americans naming their team the Irish.

You could argue against this...North Dakota has not done a lot of insensitive things with their imagery (like, say the Cleveland Indians)...but it's still a name selected by people of a different culture, unlike the Irish.

For the record, I have gone from dead set against native names to on the fence. I don't love 'em, but I know Native Americans are mixed and I know it's not my role to say what they should want. I personally am not comfortable with Florida State's imagery, but since they work with the tribe on everything, who am I to make a stink? It's too bad ND could not work this out because I don't think the intent is bad and I think there's been an effort to be respectful (again, unlike Wahoo). The NCAA's problem is if they are going to do this, they have to have a qualitative line...and the "approval" is that line.

The irony is that, and correct me if I am wrong, couldn't ND just change their name to Braves and keep the imagery? I think the imagery on "general" names (Redskins, Warriors, etc.) tends to be worse, perhaps because there is no specific group with which to work and dialog.

Neither side is as right as they think they are I suppose. Is it so important to not be "PC" that no nickname should change?

[TheOldRoman]

No, they couldn't keep the imagery. Unless teams have the approval of specific tribe, they are not allowed to use any imagery, including feathers.

[The_Admiral]

Which is a shame; the Chief Illiniwek logo was as awesome as the dance was silly.

[OnWis97]

No, they couldn't keep the imagery. Unless teams have the approval of specific tribe, they are not allowed to use any imagery, including feathers.

But what if there is no specific tribe?

So a non-tribe-specific name can stay, but there cannot be imagery since there is no tribe to approve?

I think I remember that W and M ("The Tribe") had to eliminate their feathers. I think they kept the name, so perhaps I just answered my own question.

[gosioux76]

No, they couldn't keep the imagery. Unless teams have the approval of specific tribe, they are not allowed to use any imagery, including feathers.

But what if there is no specific tribe?

So a non-tribe-specific name can stay, but there cannot be imagery since there is no tribe to approve?

I think I remember that W and M ("The Tribe") had to eliminate their feathers. I think they kept the name, so perhaps I just answered my own question.

That's a good question. I would assume schools with non tribe-specific Native American names are still forced to comply. They just don't have the work around granted to schools like UND and Florida State, which had regional tribes from which to get approval.

It seems that most major programs with names that weren't tribe-specific changed on their own. I'm thinking specifically of Miami of Ohio and St. Johns, though I'm sure the list is longer.

[winghaz]

Time for another collection of comments:

* I put in the part about Standing Rock, and what happened there, merely as a footnote because some people in don't have all the facts right. I included the whys, but some people in here seem to think the whys don't matter. Boy, if the whys don't matter, then that's a slap in the face to the Standing Rock people.

* Is the NCAA a private organization? Of course. But it's also a monopoly, and that makes it a different ballgame for the NCAA. And if you don't think it's a monopoly, then please tell me a viable alternative for UND had UND chosen to just chuck the NCAA.

* If a name is "hostile and abusive," then it's hostile and abusive regardless if it's sanctioned by a group of people. Don't go telling me Fighting Sioux is hostile and abusive but Seminoles isn't because it got the support from the Seminole tribe. If I said, "F--- you," to a guy, but that guy's wife said it was OK, those words are still hostile and abusive. Call it unsanctioned. Call it going against NCAA rules. But don't call it hostile and abusive.

* Yes, I'm trying to move on. I'm deeply disappointed, though. But, at the same time, I am looking forward to a new nickname. I just hope it's a good one.