North Dakota to Drop Fighting Sioux Moniker

[IceCap]

i get the "private group" argument that several people are making,

You say that....

but i think it's a bs excuse. how fair is it to arbitrarily (and the ncaa is doing this very arbitrarily) decide that for decades it had no stance on school names and logos but then all of a sudden decide to outlaw them or force schools for the permission of tribes to use the names?

How fair is it? It's completely fair. It's the NCAA's organization. They can change the rules whenever they please.

Generally speaking, society was a lot less tolerant/understanding of minority rights issues then it is today. It doesn't surprise me that even twenty years ago the NCAA had no problem with schools using Native names and imagery. Times change though, and the NCAA decided that standards and rules had to change with them. It's not development that's out of the ordinary.

i'm absolutely certain that there are seminole tribes who do not approve florida state using that name as well as chippewas who don't like central michigan using that name.

You're absolutely certain are you? Care to back that up with proof? Fact is that the Seminole tribe, ie the recognized governing body of the Seminole peoples, granted FSU the right to continue using their name. I haven't read up on the Central Michigan/Chippewas situation, but if they haven't gotten the approval from the Chippewas tribe(s) then you can be sure the NCAA will force the change sooner or later.

fsu and central michigan are really the main reasons why i don't give any credibility to the arbitrary decision of letting the tribes decide if they like the name or not, because there are some tribes not located in the area who have opinions not heard. i believe there was a seminole tribe in either oklahoma or new mexico who voted against fsu using the name. aren't they seminoles? shouldn't their rights be considered?

Again, proof? The Seminole tribe in Florida is ok with it, they voted to let FSU continue to use the name.

so in north dakota one tribe said yes. the other tribe had no vote. no vote does NOT mean no. no vote could mean that the tribe didn't find the issue worthy of voting on or they have no opinion either way.

Practically speaking, no vote is just as good as no. UND had to get permission from both Sioux tribes. They failed. Whatever the reason, they could not get permission to use the name from the second tribe. That's it.

und requested the opinions of these tribes and got an affirmative from one and none from the other. north dakota should continue to use the name until this tribe actually holds a vote. for decades neither tribe has posed an opposition to this. until we know the positions of both tribes on the record it is safe to assume that they had no problems with it.

The NCAA set very specific benchmarks for UND to meet to continue using the Sioux name. They failed. Why is this so hard for some people to get?

"private group" and "volunteer organization" only is a valid defense when there is another organization that is equal to another.

No, see, you're wrong. Student athletics isn't central to UND's function as an institute of higher learning. Their decision to have an athletic program at all is a voluntary choice, as is their choice to compete in NCAA sanctioned conferences. As such they have to follow the NCAA's rules. Simple, no?

and when this same "private group" actively looks away from enforcing its own rules when rules were broken (like allowing the osu 5 to play in the sugar bowl this year and then suspending them for games next year) or declares that some logos and team names are offensive, but others are not (see my first post in this thread) it has no authority (moral or otherwise) to tell anyone anything and expect to be taken seriously.

This argument almost makes my brain explode. What the NCAA does outside of the realm of Native nicknames isn't relative to the discussion regarding the use Native nicknames.

the ncaa is to amateur athletics and scholarship like nascar's nationwide series is about training future drivers and the sprint series is all about racing. they need to come clean and state that their actions have only been about the MONEY explicitly, it will reduce the backlash they so rightfully deserve at this point.

Given how passionately people are defending UND's non-existent right to use the Sioux name, I would think there would be more money to be made in letting UND keep the Sioux name. The fact that they're forcing UND to change their name indicates that they're interested protecting the rights of the tribes to have ownership of their names, and placing that greater sense of fairness and tolerance above money.

[oldschoolvikings]

Yeah, that's a good question. We've heard the whole "NCAA is only about money" business being trotted out now a few times. Somebody please tell me how the NCAA is making any money off of UND's name change? I mean, maybe they are, and I'm just missing it, but I don't see how.

[october23sp]

Yeah, that's a good question. We've heard the whole "NCAA is only about money" business being trotted out now a few times. Somebody please tell me how the NCAA is making any money off of UND's name change? I mean, maybe they are, and I'm just missing it, but I don't see how.

It's not so much that, it's that the NCAA is a piece of organization that is money hungry. I don't want them to get all preachy about what is correct and what is not.

[winghaz]

A number of thoughts here:

* Of course the NCAA is all about money. Just look at how it handles the bowl situation.

* The official name of the Standing Rock tribe is the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. If the word "Sioux" is so offensive, as some in here claim, then why does the tribe refer to itself as Sioux?

* Speaking of Standing Rock, I think we need to go over what happened. The Standing Rock tribal council refused to vote for or against allowing UND to keep the Fighting Sioux nickname. The council also refused to have a vote of the tribal members on the issue. That was in contrast to the Spirit Lake tribe, which had a vote of the tribal members and those tribal members voted overwhelmingly to keep the Fighting Sioux nickname.

* Please, folks, no more talk about Flickertails as the new nickname. It's an awful nickname. If you want a rodent, a more approriate nickname for this state would be Prairie Dogs. Personally, I'd prefer Roughriders or Fighting Norse.

[october23sp]

A number of thoughts here:

* Of course the NCAA is all about money. Just look at how it handles the bowl situation.

* The official name of the Standing Rock tribe is the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. If the word "Sioux" is so offensive, as some in here claim, then why does the tribe refer to itself as Sioux?

* Speaking of Standing Rock, I think we need to go over what happened. The Standing Rock tribal council refused to vote for or against allowing UND to keep the Fighting Sioux nickname. The council also refused to have a vote of the tribal members on the issue. That was in contrast to the Spirit Lake tribe, which had a vote of the tribal members and those tribal members voted overwhelmingly to keep the Fighting Sioux nickname.

* Please, folks, no more talk about Flickertails as the new nickname. It's an awful nickname. If you want a rodent, a more approriate nickname for this state would be Prairie Dogs. Personally, I'd prefer Roughriders or Fighting Norse.

(**) (**)

[pcgd]

Norse is taken:

http://images.wikia.com/nba/images/f/fd/Luther_Norse.jpg

Luther College Norse, D3 in decorah, Iowa

They could do it of course. I'd rather see these schools go without a nickname than make up something. I wanted my school to do that (Carthage Redmen became Red Men) and if Illinois had to drop I wanted them to just go without. Has anyone done that that is a major athletic program at any level? I know some Art institutes and such dont, but anyone with a full athletics program?

[ldswoosh33]

They could be the Fighting Sioux again... Wait nope... Oh NCAA with your power to over turn the system known as government. Oh, you guys...

[Gothamite]

* Speaking of Standing Rock, I think we need to go over what happened. The Standing Rock tribal council refused to vote for or against allowing UND to keep the Fighting Sioux nickname. The council also refused to have a vote of the tribal members on the issue. That was in contrast to the Spirit Lake tribe, which had a vote of the tribal members and those tribal members voted overwhelmingly to keep the Fighting Sioux nickname.

it doesn't matter what happened.

ND had to license the name in order to keep using it. They couldn't strike a deal with the two owners.

Regardless of what we think of the process by which the owners decided not to license the name, it was still their decision to make.

ND failed to secure a license, so they can't use the name. That's the bottom line. It's really a very simple IP case at its core, unfortunately wrapped up in a whole emotional mess that needlessly complicates it.

[Trident M]

A number of thoughts here:

* Of course the NCAA is all about money. Just look at how it handles the bowl situation.

Actually, most of the Bowl money goes to the corrupt third parties who run the Bowls and fleece public schools out of millions of dollars. That's also the reason there's no playoff in FBS college football (It's the Football Bowl Subdivision - see? It's in the name! Now you can't change it!).

The NCAA is just enough of a pushover to the Bowl lobby to keep the system going even when a playoff could net them even more money than their current cash cow - the NCAA basketball tournament.

But you're absolutely right that they're all about money. The nickname thing is just part of the guise that it's all about academics and "student athletes". Nothing will change with Mark Emmert at the helm. He was an corporate sellout as president at the UW and will continue to be as he heads up the NCAA.

[Trident M]

it doesn't matter what happened.

ND had to license the name in order to keep using it. They couldn't strike a deal with the two owners.

Regardless of what we think of the process by which the owners decided not to license the name, it was still their decision to make.

ND failed to secure a license, so they can't use the name. That's the bottom line. It's really a very simple IP case at its core, unfortunately wrapped up in a whole emotional mess that needlessly complicates it.

Meanwhile, this racist piece of s*** keeps going strong.

[DC in Da House w/o a Doubt]

it doesn't matter what happened.

ND had to license the name in order to keep using it. They couldn't strike a deal with the two owners.

Regardless of what we think of the process by which the owners decided not to license the name, it was still their decision to make.

ND failed to secure a license, so they can't use the name. That's the bottom line. It's really a very simple IP case at its core, unfortunately wrapped up in a whole emotional mess that needlessly complicates it.

Meanwhile, this racist piece of s*** keeps going strong.

and may he continue to! If the day ever comes where the Indians' primary logo is that dreadful block-C instead of this gem, I will cry for many nights. And I'm not even an Indians fan.

[IceCap]

A number of thoughts here:

* Of course the NCAA is all about money. Just look at how it handles the bowl situation.

Again, I would think there's more money to be made in letting UND keep the Sioux name.

* The official name of the Standing Rock tribe is the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. If the word "Sioux" is so offensive, as some in here claim, then why does the tribe refer to itself as Sioux?

It's not about the name Sioux being offensive. Stop moving the goal posts.

The problem is that UND failed to get permission from both Sioux tribes to use the name.

* Speaking of Standing Rock, I think we need to go over what happened. The Standing Rock tribal council refused to vote for or against allowing UND to keep the Fighting Sioux nickname. The council also refused to have a vote of the tribal members on the issue. That was in contrast to the Spirit Lake tribe, which had a vote of the tribal members and those tribal members voted overwhelmingly to keep the Fighting Sioux nickname.

Doesn't matter how it happened. The Standing Rock Sioux Tribe refused to grant UND permission to use the name. So they can't use the name.

* Please, folks, no more talk about Flickertails as the new nickname. It's an awful nickname. If you want a rodent, a more approriate nickname for this state would be Prairie Dogs. Personally, I'd prefer Roughriders or Fighting Norse.

And you're already discussing possible replacement names. See, you're getting over it faster then you thought you would

it doesn't matter what happened.

ND had to license the name in order to keep using it. They couldn't strike a deal with the two owners.

Regardless of what we think of the process by which the owners decided not to license the name, it was still their decision to make.

ND failed to secure a license, so they can't use the name. That's the bottom line. It's really a very simple IP case at its core, unfortunately wrapped up in a whole emotional mess that needlessly complicates it.

Meanwhile, this racist piece of s*** keeps going strong.

and may he continue to! If the day ever comes where the Indians' primary logo is that dreadful block-C instead of this gem, I will cry for many nights. And I'm not even an Indians fan.

It's a sad indictment on our society that THIS logo is held up as being "ok."

[DC in Da House w/o a Doubt]

Eh, step off your soap box. We're all entitled to how we feel.

[IceCap]

Sure thing

[Gothamite]

Eh, step off your soap box. We're all entitled to how we feel.

Yes, and he wasn't out of line in expressing his feelings. Neither were you.

You were both a little hyperbolic, but that's cool. If he was on a soap box, then so were you. As are we all.

[DC in Da House w/o a Doubt]

Eh, step off your soap box. We're all entitled to how we feel.

Yes, and he wasn't out of line in expressing his feelings. Neither were you.

You were both a little hyperbolic, but that's cool. If he was on a soap box, then so were you. As are we all.

there is a difference between stating an opinion like that I would be bummed to see the Indians get rid of Chief Wahoo for the Block-C logo and preaching.

[Gothamite]

I must respectfully disagree. His retort seemed pretty mild to me, and most importantly he didn't use it as an excuse to take a personal shot at you.

When you step into an ongoing thread like this one, you have to appreciate that the rhetoric is already pretty high. In that light, he was downright restrained.

[DC in Da House w/o a Doubt]

I must respectfully disagree. His retort seemed pretty mild to me, and most importantly he didn't use it as an excuse to take a personal shot at you.

When you step into an ongoing thread like this one, you have to appreciate that the rhetoric is already pretty high. In that light, he was downright restrained.

I was referring to everything he has been saying, not solely his response to me. I never mentioned personal attacks. Not sure why I'm having to justify myself to you. Maybe we should just drop it. Sounds good to me.

[IceCap]

I must respectfully disagree. His retort seemed pretty mild to me, and most importantly he didn't use it as an excuse to take a personal shot at you.

When you step into an ongoing thread like this one, you have to appreciate that the rhetoric is already pretty high. In that light, he was downright restrained.

I was referring to everything he has been saying, not solely his response to me.

Outside of the Indians logo thing, all I've done in this thread is explain why UND was forced to drop the name "Fighting Sioux." If that's "preachy" to you, then I don't know what to say to that.

Oh, I also said I hoped a neo-Nazi was burning in hell, and I'm not going to apologize for that one.

[Mingjai]

* The official name of the Standing Rock tribe is the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. If the word "Sioux" is so offensive, as some in here claim, then why does the tribe refer to itself as Sioux?

It's not about the name Sioux being offensive. Stop moving the goal posts.

The problem is that UND failed to get permission from both Sioux tribes to use the name.

I'm neutral on the name change issue, but I disagree with characterizing the issue as failure to get permission from the tribe. Why does the NCAA have a rule requiring the university have to get tribal permission for nicknames the NCAA has deemed "hostile and abusive"? Using the name doesn't violate any intellectual property right that the Sioux tribes own, so the NCAA isn't simply mandating that member universities comply with federal or state trademark law. The Sioux nickname was considered offensive by the NCAA, and the university has failed to qualify for the NCAA-specified exception to use an otherwise offensive nickname, so the nickname is deemed "hostile and abusive" and not allow for use.

To argue otherwise would be like saying that the issue in a criminal case isn't whether the defendant committed a felony, but whether the defendant has a justification for committing the felony. While the outcome of the case may hinge on the justification of the crime, the case is still about the crime itself.

This case in not an intellectual property case. It is a contracts case.